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Rejected Submission C5-02a

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Zack

Inactive Member
Submission Type: starship
Template Used:
Submission WIP URL: https://wiki.stararmy.com/doku.php?id=wip:character:wazu:c5
Submission Destination URL: character:wazu:c5

Faction: USO
FM Approved Yet? (Yes/No; Who, When) Yes
Faction requires art? (Yes/No) Yes

For Reviewers:
Contains Unapproved Sub-Articles? (Yes/No) No
Contains New art? (Yes/No) Yes
Previously Submitted? (Yes/No; explain reason if rejected) Yes

Notes: Added a few updates to the C5 including new art and the new container engines / container sensors / container mines. This will replace the original C5 article when approved.

Edit: and DR updates for the weapon
 
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After looking this submission over, I have several concerns - some minor, some not so minor - regarding it:
  • Isn't a Chiaki-sized starship with six Tier 14 weapons - each capable of firing six times per minute - just a tad overpowered?
  • Shouldn't the aforementioned weapons have their own separate sub-article?
  • According to this section of the Damage Rating article, wouldn't a starship with an effective "length" of 76 meters be classified as a Tier 10 light starship?
  • Shouldn't this submission follow the starship template in order to comply with the Submission Rules?
  • As it's the second version of the first gunship that USO produced, wouldn't the correct nomenclature for this submission - which is required in order to comply with the Submission Rules - be "Wz-S1-2a"?
 
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Better engines + the speed bonus from unarmored. I figure that's enough to move it up one speed rating from 'normal' to 'fast'
 
Originally the C5 used 36 Engine Containers.

Now it uses 12 Engine Containers and 24 Container Tugs.

The reason it doesn't just use 36 container tugs is because I can't turn the engines 90 degrees on that model, so the C5 just uses the turned nozzle version of the containers for side to side movement. The C5 can also detatch the forward facing tugs and turn them rearward to get all 24 engines pointed backwards.

The Tug also uses 4 higher end engines designed for fighter-craft while the engine container only uses one kinda generic rocket engine.
 
  • Shouldn't the aforementioned weapons have their own separate sub-article?
  • Classified as a Tier 10 light starship?
  • Shouldn't this submission follow the starship template in order to comply with the Submission Rules?
  • As it's the second version of the first gunship that USO produced, wouldn't the correct nomenclature for this submission - which is required in order to comply with the Submission Rules - be "Wz-S1-2a"?
Quoting some good points.

As the Beam Weapons are, if you put the images and text in a sub I'll pass it in this thread as it's A-Ok. A bit on the light side, but you're not a heavy eater, I'm guessing.
 
While normally weapons are their own submission, iirc I was originally asked for this to be put in as a not-separate submission. Right now I'm just looking to update a few parts of the original submission to include the stuff I've added in over the last few months. Though if this was an entirely new submission then yeah.

Similarly with the template, all of the required stuff from the template is there.

It's a Tier 11 starship, because that's what DRv3 says it is.

Wazu is prolific, but he's not a corporation (yet?). So his designation for this is just C5. He kinda labels smaller components but he isn't beholden to a certain naming scheme.
 
When were you asked for it to be non-separate subs?

Rest is good thank you for explaining. I don't like your starship templates any more than Frost does and I have to sit on thinking about letting you continually skirt the template.
 
That was back when Doshii was trying to do approvals. The whole thing was a huge mess.

I do want to transition everything to their own pages, I'm just not ready to do the BEAM containers yet.
 
Why aren't you ready to do so?

I'm sorry you've been told misinformation about the template.
 
Just time and energy.

The engines and the sensors and storage for some kind of extra stuff was the easiest to get done so I did that and rolled the changes into the main article.

The next update would either be the weapons, or those sensor antenna on the sides (or both). But it takes a while for stuff to get made, art done, and put up for approval. Rather than trying to do everything I find it a lot easier to make small updates over time.
 
While normally weapons are their own submission, iirc I was originally asked for this to be put in as a not-separate submission. Right now I'm just looking to update a few parts of the original submission to include the stuff I've added in over the last few months. Though if this was an entirely new submission then yeah.

According to the starship template "ALL WEAPONS SHOULD BE POSTED AS SEPARATE ARTICLES" @Zack.

Similarly with the template, all of the required stuff from the template is there.

Wes said here that (emphasis mine) it's "...okay to slightly modify the template to add more details but the outline of the page should be generally recognizable as the standardtemplate for the ship/character/gun/etc."

It's a Tier 11 starship, because that's what DRv3 says it is.

This section says otherwise, @Zack.

Wazu is prolific, but he's not a corporation (yet?). So his designation for this is just C5. He kinda labels smaller components but he isn't beholden to a certain naming scheme.

The Submission Rules do not care how "prolific" someone may or may not be, @Zack.

Additionally, since Ame appears to have cut it off by mistake: Isn't a Chiaki-sized starship with six Tier 14 weapons - each capable of firing six times per minute - just a tad overpowered?
 
You call it a gunship, say the size decreased with this design, and say it is anti-starship, and are saying antennae count towards size?

"As far as star-ship grade weapons go they are fairly weak..." Then they should NOT be classified as Tier 14.

I will reject this article if it continues to avoid the template, have a weapon system without a subarticle that is improperly classified, and is a weapon that makes this submission overpowered.
 
The size decrease was from the C3 to the C5 (Skipping the C4, since that design never made it to the point where it could go up for approval). That's a huge size difference because it takes the ship out of the capital ship class and into the escort ship class for the military buildup guidelines. Antennae do count towards size, since DRv3 counts the total size of the ship.


Also 'weak for their size' seems accurate. Since most other weapons in the higher tiers are smaller in terms of size. I'll break out the weapon into its own article, it'll just take me some time to get to it.


One tier 14 weapon is also exactly what was allowed under DRv3 for a size 11 ship before we got rid of the weapon limitations rules since it is taking no other weapons. (8 Tier 11 weapons -> 4 Tier 12 weapons -> 2 Tier 13 weapons -> 1 Tier 14)
 
[...] Antennae do count towards size, since DRv3 counts the total size of the ship.

You and I both know - and I'm fairly certain @Fred would agree with me here - that an extremely thin antennae does not justify having a higher tier, @Zack, as that would be like saying a cable with a length of twenty kilometers and a constant diameter of one meter is a Tier 15 Heavy Capital Ship.

Also 'weak for their size' seems accurate. Since most other weapons in the higher tiers are smaller in terms of size. [...]

According to the Submission Rules, @Zack, it is "...not a valid argument to justify overpowered or questionable abilities on your submission by...pointing to an older submission, especially one of a different faction."


One tier 14 weapon is also exactly what was allowed under DRv3 for a size 11 ship before we got rid of the weapon limitations rules since it is taking no other weapons. (8 Tier 11 weapons -> 4 Tier 12 weapons -> 2 Tier 13 weapons -> 1 Tier 14)

Those limitations are no longer in place, @Zack - and besides, one does not equal six.
 
Wow. No, these spindly antennas should not count toward the effective tier categorization of this vessel. I mean, let's be reasonable. x_x

According to its radius and how its width is surely inferior to that, it seems to squeeze into 'Light Starship' at best.

So, according to what I initially cobbled up on per-ship weapon payload limitations:
8x Tier 10 -> 4x Tier 11 -> 2x Tier 12 -> 1x Tier 13

For perspective, a Yui-7 is close to the same size and packs one heavy anti-starship main aether array, and has 2 torpedo tubes that can fire forward (4 torps per tube). In means that in an initial salvo, it can do 3 times Tier 12 damage. Hefty, but part of that firepower comes from ammunition stores. So, it comes frontloaded with a lot of firepower, but that doesn't last for too long.

By contrast... wowza, this thing can pack the same amount of firepower as a Plumeria's main gun. Credible? Let's see. You swiftly are going to blast apart pretty much everything up to a Super Eikan heavy cruiser. Rate of fire is... 10 pulses per seconds? Then I look at the nature of the weaponry, which is 6 groups of 9 cells containing 6 beam lenses - 324 beam lenses total. My own skepticism aside, I am 100% convinced @Wes would look at this and go "lol no". (a point of pride for Wes appears to be the Plumeria being able to pack a Tier 14 weapon in the smallest package possible)

I kind of want to stay faithful to the artwork. So, bringing about that conversion system Zack was referencing to...
512x Tier 4 -> 256x Tier 5 -> 128x Tier 6 -> 64x Tier 7 -> 32x Tier 8 -> 16x Tier 9 -> 8x Tier 10 -> 4x Tier 11 -> 2x Tier 12 -> 1x Tier 13
Let's be generous and say that each beam lense would fit in Tier 5. That's a power armor's decent beam rifle of somekind. Seems respectable, except I guess it doesnt fulfill Zack's ship-to-ship ambitions.

So, let's say that 6 beam lenses clustered together could focus together to be more than the sum of their parts. That might about to 54 instances of, say, Tier 7 damage total? Okay, so, now they're shaping up to be more like tank weapons in potency... a point where it becomes a fairly potent threat to starfighters. It can only fire in front of it, but, wow, so many lazers fired by all those 54 cells.

So, I guess the next step is when you'd combine all those cells together to focus fire with the entire group? Being generous, I guess those could count as 6x Tier 11 weapons? We'd be basically saying that all of those little beam lenses, all clustered together, would be able to do 3 times the amount of firepower a Plumeria's twin positron railguns would be able to muster, without having to carry the troublesome anti-matter along.

...

Nope, too advantageous. You're packing a lot of cheap inexpensive weaponry along. It's already miraculous that those can focus together to churn out more damage in 3-steps. So, I could top at Tier 10, but this whole thing is a concept of killing by papercuts. Papercuts do not collectively come together to equate to multiple swords. I'd give this 54x Tier 7 weapons. Connect with all of those on a Tier 10 target, and you're doing a collective 7% damage to a barrier per hit. A light starship caught in that is going to be smelted down.

The problem, though, is that anything above a light starship is going to shrug off the majority of that since the beam lenses are just so small. I'm not adverse to bigger energy weapons firing more shots that would count as less - but this is clearly not it.
 
So then who's the arbiter of what parts of a ship count and what parts don't? You're talking about an entire re-work of the DRv3 system to count usable volume of a ship and even then the C5 is going to be quite a bit larger than other Tier 11 starships. It may not be as long as other ships, but it certainly has more usable volume. The rules you made state it is Tier 11, so it is Tier 11. Even if you want to make up new rules about how to define ship size, the C5 is still likely going to end up in the Tier 11 category because it is quite a bit larger than most ships in that category but not quite large enough to hit the next size class up. That means the maximum amount of weapons it could take under the old system or an arbitrary new system is still a single Tier 14. Ontop of that those rules have been removed so its not like there is a basis for declaring a ship overpowered anymore, especially when under the existing system the C5 has objectively less firepower than the Plumeria.
 
Taking a quick glance at this, the "template" itself — which is the layout and framework that you put content in — is less an issue than its content.

On ships that use the standard starship template or retain its bones, anyone can click the "Statistics and Performance" tab and immediately see the ship's vital stats. The C5-02a here has that same information, but you need to go looking for it.

That's simple for me because I know about ctrl+f. Many people do not, or can not because of phone functionality.

Now, it seems like you've tried to condense it all down into the "About the Ship" section, which is totally admirable and all of that. But, as I just outlined, it doesn't seem to be working — neither for your reviewer or for matching SARP's stylebook.

tl;dr: the biggest problem with the template is actually really minor so just fix it.

PS: "Logistics" isn't a verb, so you can't be "in" it like you can be "in combat." Just saying "About the ship... in logistics" doesn't make sense or follow in the same way that "About the ship... in combat" does.
 
View attachment 14905

A quick render of the two ships next to each other. The Plumeria's main weapon array is only about 1/3rd the size of the C5's main weapon array. You could fit two of the Plumeria's main weapons into the space made available for the C5's weapon and still have enough space left over to carry all of the Plumeria's other weapons.


(and yeah Raz, The switch over to the requested template will happen, it just probably won't be today.)

(edit: The C5b model was used for that just because it has less polygons and is easier to manipulate. It is still the same size though)
 
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