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Editing post-approval -- FM edition

Doshii Jun

Doshii Jun

Perpetual player
Retired Staff
If a submitter gets a submission through the NTSE, with FM approval, and the FM suddenly decides something that goes against the submission and demands a rewrite -- is that valid?

This is a question worth considering. Should submitters really have to make edits at the whim of FMs, when they went through the process and acted in good faith by default? Should there be a process to resolve submitter and FM desires, instead of hammering the player with decrees?

Late edit: my phrasing is loaded by design. I don't see the value in making a submitter suffer edits to their submissions when they're made in good faith and get proper approvals. I'm not numb to FM concerns, but there has to be a balance somehow.
 
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I'm wondering where this stemmed from. Is there some real pressing issue of this happening?
 
Doshii Jun said:
If a submitter gets a submission through the NTSE, with FM approval...
Click to expand...

I'm afraid you're incorrect, @Doshii Jun, as I never gave my approval on any of the submissions I mentioned in my post.

Doshii Jun said:
...and the FM suddenly decides something that goes against the submission and demands a rewrite -- is that valid?
Click to expand...

A "rewrite," Doshii? Please, let's not use hyperbole here - because since when was changing one word or removing a sentence considered a "rewrite"?

To answer the second part - of course it's "valid." In their current state, the articles mentioned in my post violate the Faction Rights guaranteed to the Elysian Celestial Empire by:
  • Back-writing events that were not discussed in advance. (Right #1b: "Diplomatic, military, and other important events should be discussed in advance.")
  • Making changes that were not approved by its Faction Manager. (Right #2a: "Additions and changes to a faction must be approved by its faction manager.")
  • Reproducing its technology without the permission of its Faction Manager (Right #2bIII: "Other factions may not reverse engineer or reproduce a faction's unique technology without permission.")
  • By involving its military units. (Right #2cIV: "Other factions may not, without permission, involve or destroy a faction's military units.")

Doshii Jun said:
This is a question worth considering. Should submitters really have to make edits at the whim of FMs, when they went through the process and acted in good faith by default?
Click to expand...

@Zack, as far as I'm aware, did not act in good faith with regards to any of the aforementioned submissions due to the fact that he fought me every step of the way in the relevant aforementioned threads, nor am I acting on a "whim"; rather, I'm acting on the fact that Elysia never explored out to the west and the fact that Zack personally said he wouldn't be using any Elysian technology.

Doshii Jun said:
Should there be a process to resolve submitter and FM desires, instead of hammering the player with decrees?
Click to expand...

Don't the Faction Rights already provide the "process" you're referring to?

Doshii Jun said:
Late edit: my phrasing is loaded by design. I don't see the value in making a submitter suffer edits to their submissions when they're made in good faith and get proper approvals.
Click to expand...

That's the thing, though: as I said earlier, I'm pretty sure Zack did not act in good faith - and he certainly didn't get all of the requisite approvals.

Doshii Jun said:
I'm not numb to FM concerns, but there has to be a balance somehow.
Click to expand...

There's already a balance, Doshii Jun - check with all of the Faction Managers your submission affects/mentions/etc. before submitting something.

(Apologies if this isn't completely coherent - I finisbed typing this at 4:54am.)
 
If an FM comes into a thread and outlines what needs to be changed before approval then the submitter is supposed to make those modifications. If an FM states that they don't want their faction involved in something then, similarly, the submitter should edit the material out. We've got that clause in the submission guidelines about talking to related FMs before writing new articles to avoid such exact disagreements (though I'm not sure if it applies here, as I haven't looked too deeply into the root of the thread's question).
 
I think, personally, that the FM's right is always more superior than a submitter. If someone makes something that's flip-floppy for the FM, they already didn't do their part to make something solid and good for the faction.

I know that if I made something for Yamatai, for example, and Wes rejected it after making and getting him to initially approve it? I might be angry, but I would accept it because it's his faction.

Maybe it's just because RPing isn't about throwing tantrums because I have to think and potentially change a few elements of my RP. But I'm also not a person who completely bases my RPs (save the very first one I made on SARP) around something so much that its removal or changes would damage/hinder it. Because being perfectly honest? I don't think this sort of thread is about anyone "having good faith". And even if it did, it doesn't matter.

We're here to RP. FMs and the SM manage the factions and it's up to us, players, to respect that. As far as I know, most "FM decrees" as of late have been issued because a small group of people refuse to communicate with all parties they're trying to modify, involve, or just mess with. So they attempt to slip it in or do so without discussion, which is already a lack of good faith. The only thing we need is more ability for the FMs to stop or simply decree a submitter's potential vandalism. Because recently, it seems like a growing portion of people don't care if they tread on factions or their managers in their attempts to get things through the NTSE. They're simply trying to do it "because they want it".

I've not seen someone have to "rewrite" an entire article (barring I think one incident where the entire thing was awful and trouble and that was ages ago), but it shows more that there's a serious problem with submitters if they get something through that then gets halted by an FM. Or a problem with the NTSE for approving it. TBQH, I can't imagine FMs based on my knowledge and interaction even with ones I don't agree with being to that hostility/bad mannerisms.

So the balance, to me, is simple: the FM has the right, so just work with them if you really want to try and get it approved. Otherwise, the person submitting shouldn't be working with that faction's assets, history, or whatever it may be.
 
I'll pitch my opinion, and it'll be short. Given previous messages, I'm hopeful of the outcome.

I personally believe a faction manager, or am author in regards to NPCs factions and races, should have the right to request edits of anything that is wrong. For all intents and purposes, there is no one who knows content better than the Creator, or hopefully the factions manager in cases where things have changed hands. That it's why they are factions managers.

I think this extends to all aspects of the wiki. If you after using someone content, and you use it won't or miss represent the content in a major way, the content Creator or manager should be allowed to have it fixed.

Now, preferable, it will be fixed in a way that benefits both parties. The person is interested in the content. That should be a moment of pride. An Fm or content Creator should avoid using their power in such a way that just stops roleplay. This is a roleplay site. Not a wiki site. This isn't always possible though. I'm aware of that.
 
I'm having some trouble here. You know my attention span restricts me to simplicity.:rolleyes:

It seems that we are considering the Elysian Empire to be an active faction with plots and supporters but I am not seeing any active Elysian themed RP threads. Perhaps my account is lacking the necessary permissions, @Wes? I'm seeing Elysian characters but they all appear to be either citizens of the YSE or Independent on my screen, but maybe that's only because I'm using a phone.
 
As far as I am aware, the Elysians have no active plot Rizzo. However, they are still a faction with all the rights that the status entails.

However, I think that in this type of situation, where the FM approves something and then wishes to retract approval, it's the FM who's at fault. It doesn't matter the reason, but if the FM wasn't thorough in their review and granting of approval, it's a mistake on their part. For that reason, I think it's important that disputes like this are arbitrated by a third party, so that the interests on both sides are properly addressed and met where possible. It's unfair for the submitter to have their thing revoked arbitrarily, but would also be bad for faction rights if the FM no longer had any say.

This is a balancing act, I feel.
 
What did what FM approve that Frost is unapproving exactly?
 
Once something is approved it should stay that way unless Wes says otherwise. No one else should have that power. FMs have an opportunity to voice their opinion during the approval process.
 
From what I understand Ame, it's the history that lead up to current RP in Zack's plot, that certain areas were explored by the Elysians in the past, and that the 4th Elysian Empire (separate from Frost's main branch) does not have Elysian tech. I believe Wes addressed the tech issue himself; things like specific ship classes can be restricted, but not general tech like hyperdrives and stuff that existed before the 4th Elysian Empire split off.

I do have to agree with what Arsenicjon said however. Though I do believe some form of discussion should be held to at least attempt compromise, the submitter is the one on the high ground. It's the FM's mistake after all, or in this specific instance, something approved before the current FM even took power.
 
I will add my own two cents.

It is hard for an FM to argue something when they are not tagged or notified of something in advance. I know that unless I am tagged in something, I am not going to go searching for it. I don't have time to babysit the setting submissions for things that have to do with DIoN, Nepleslians, or Nepleslian Companies.

It is on the submitter to speak with their FM before they start something so that things like this are cleared up before we have a massive train wreck and the submitter wastes their time and gets their feelings hurt.

But that is just my opinion on the matter
 
That's correct. It's the duty of the submitter to alert the FM, and something can't be approved without FM permission regardless. In this case though, Doshii is talking about something being approved by an FM, and then later revoked. In the specific case he linked, it was something that was approved prior to the current FM coming to power.
 
... so the king of nothing is demanding that the king of something trash the story that all of the writers involved in the 188604 has worked hard to build? This is senseless.

If no one else will, then I must.
@FrostJaeger, I am calling you out as a fraudulent leader who is using the faction of @Wes, because the YSE owns the Elysian Celestial Empire, to cause disruption on the site by harassing the players of the 188604 plot. Your harassment has been made evident on the NTSE who's staff if familiar with your uncalled for nitpicking of the submissions belonging to @Zack which you have no right to do as you are not FM of the 4th Great Elysian Celestial Empire, a faction that left your faction.

Furthermore, I point to the absence of players and active plots as proof of your fraudulent claim to leadership of both the 4th Great Elysian Celestial Empire and Elysian Celestial Empire.

The actions of a plottless, dead faction must never threaten the health of an active story, so why don't you go and make your own before you start problems.
 
I won't say whether or not I agree with you, but we should try and keep things civil here.

Ultimately, Doshii was thinking hard about FM vs Submitter, and given how widely the situation can vary, well, that's why I suggest arbitration in situations like these. In this particular case, I ignored the FM because the demands of said FM were less than reasonable. However, if the FM had good reason behind their demands, such as their faction coming to harm, then I would have sided with the FM instead. During normal situations, the FM is the one with final authority, however, in abnormal situations, both sides should be weighed very carefully.

There's no one-size-fits-all rule here for things like this.
 
CadetNewb said:
There's no one-size-fits-all rule here for things like this.
Click to expand...
Yes there is. We treat all FMs with the same respect. Biggest problem here is the notion that, basically, people can pick and choose what FMs they want to respect when we should all treat FMs with the same respect we show for Wes and his leadership of his faction.

There is no special class of player called "submitter" who get special treatment when dealing with FMs. There are players, GMs, FMs and the various Staff positions and they already have outlined rights and rules of conduct.

Look to the rules we already have because the answer to this conundrum already exists. No need for the "Frost vs Zack" narrative distraction. We have a GM and an FM who disagree. Ultimately, the FM's voice should win out here.

So this ultimately seems like another attempt to erode FM rights.
 
Honestly? If the FM screwed up, they screwed up. Someone like Wes needs to weigh in on these situations, which are fairly rare to begin with.
 
Wes said something about 188604 but the Elysian FM of the time didn't say anything.

I don't know why everyone's acting like Aendri gave his support for the planet.

I'm still baffled where this post is where Frost takes back approval of something that was approved already with an Elysian FM stamp?
 
The problem is that in doing so, Frost would effectively interfere with a plot that's been ongoing. It's as Rizzo said really. Not only that, but it's being done on grounds that are less than solid. The reasons for doing so are not very strong ones at all from what I've seen.

EDIT: If he had a stronger case, I'd see where he is coming from, but he doesn't.
 
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