[Game Mechanics] Moving at the Speed of SARP

[Exhack]

So I've noticed a problematic trend in SARP roleplay. Our ships and vehicles all move too damn fast, and all at roughly the same inflated speed. The differences in acceleration and 'top speed' should be far more pronounced between various ship and mecha classes or we'll find ourselves all trying to be the Lightning Bruiser, with carriers outrunning PA and battleships bolting to the middle of a formation slower than lightspeed and annihilating the opposition simply because one writer was a little more shameless with a tech exploit.

The problem is, that we have an exploit on an RP site. Something that really, ideally, should not happen.

The solution?

Imposing drastically slower STL speeds, in the hundreds of m/s. Ideally, an upper tier speedster would have an unboosted top speed of somewhere south of 5 km/s, while the average gunship might push 1 km/s. This in no way will retcon our FTL speeds, which are Gods' honestly quite fine.

For dramatic purposes, this is good, because the user of afterburners would matter much more and the velocities could be thought of by players in a much more familiar manner. Have you ever even calculated the distance traversable in a second at .3c? It's 89 megameters, or 89 K km. That's twice the Earth's circumference, in a second.

Well...

Before I continue, I'd like to know what the players and GMs of SARP think of this.

 

[DocTomoe]

I don't like it, we're fine with what we have.

 

[Zack]

Good rules are good, and this is something that really should be fixed as there are tons of exploits involving speed that most people haven't thought to use.

Though instead of retconing speed why not make things more accurate and simply impose limits on a ship's acceleration? It would fix people's urge to accelerate to a max speed in the span of a few seconds and stop on a dime.

 

[Wes]

If we rework STL speeds, I'd like to make it acceleration-based. Also, we'd want to make a chart of engine types and capabilities.

 

[Kai]

Making STL speeds acceleration-based would be a good idea, seeing as it would make my own submissions actually do what they are supposed to, rather than look like they go the same speed as every other ship out there.

 

[Fred]

Acceleration with gravimetric intertial drives seem a little redundant, if you ask me.

I've raised some thoughts on the issue once in a talk between GMs. I'll quote it, since I think it's significant to the topic:

Obviously, the fix to that is another re-evaluating of ship speeds and try to get a even more accurate figure or what is actually needed, actually feasible and balanced in terms of what you consider.

Can we do it? *wince* I can hear SUBLIMEinal gritting his teeth together from here just at the thought of it

One highlight of things as they are now is that the big awesome speeds we have at our disposal are really traveling speeds. I don't expect you'll see many starships going around at 18 000c in a battle, mostly because it isn't done while keeping your weapon systems and military-grade shielding online. What's more, with the range and speed of most weapons, you're practically stuck using them at STL speed, in light-second ranges, anyhow.

In a referencial comparison, A light second is roughly 300 000 kps. 0.3c is roughly a third of that (100 000 kps). Here's a nice graph to portray scale:



Earth has a radius of 6000 km and a circumference of 40 000 km. The Moon is something like 1.25 light second away from Earth. Earth is at a 1 AU distance from the sun and light from the sun takes 499 seconds to reach the Earth (499 light seconds) therefore, a ship going at 500c would cross the distance between the Sun and Earth in a second.

Jupiter has a radius of 70 000 km, 11 times the surface of Earth and 121 times the volume (big!) and the gas giant planet is about 5 AU away from the Sun, so it takes sunlight around 41 minutes to get there. If I had a ship traveling the distance between the Sun and Jupiter, going at 500c would cover the distance in 5 seconds; going at 2500c (our current power armor speed) does it in a second.

Pluto is 50 AU away from Earth and it would take 50 seconds to travel to it on a ship going at 500c, 10 seconds to get there going at 2500c and only 1.25 seconds going at our top speed of 20 000c.

The Oort Cloud, the most distant element that might be considered as part of our solar system, is 50 000 AU away - roughly a light year - which is a quarter of the distance to the nearest star to ours; Proxima Centauri. That's a thousand times the distance to Pluto from the Sun so it'd take ~13h45m to reach it at 500c, ~2h45m to reach it at 2500c and ~20m to reach it at 20 000c.

The nearest star system to Sol, Proxima Centauri, is 4 light years away. This means about a ~55h (slightly more than 2 days) trip at 500c, ~11h (less than half a day) at 2500c and ~82m30s (1h22m really) at 20 000c.

Following the above observations, sublight engines already go entirely too fast to really give credibility to flying through asteroid fields or giving credence to maneuvering around planets at such speeds. Even with my previously given adjustment, the picture provided is silly, and that even at 0.1c (33 000 kps) really.

If CDD-like FTL drive systems are mostly meant for inter-planetary navigation, those too are way too fast for credibility, though less blatantly so than STL engines. I could totally see fighters and power armors stick to higher STL fractions and do fine (because it really boggles my mind to see power armors going at 2500c). In fact, 2500c would be a fine CDD top speed, according to my referencing above.

Fold speed is a less problematic issue because we're dealing a lot more with transit times than any combat application speeds, but I wouldn't balk at it being divided by five to fifteen (because 20 000c to 60 000c seems like decent fold speeds to me and our current top fold speeds are 300 000c, I think).

* * *

But wait.

Readjustments of speed or not, however, this doesn't help the issue of being able to make 12c torpedoes compete with 2500c FTL drives, right? So, even if we'd 'fix' speed ratings as I just suggested above, it wouldn't really fix the problems... despite my prior argument that the 'nerfed' torpedo speeds were important to allow them to be seen and reacted to in ship battles.

SARP as GMed by others is more or less a similar model to what Wes effectively uses for a plotship. With Wes, right now, battles are made at sublight, using direct-fire weapons and projectiles - guided or not - that people see coming; with very limited uses of FTL (I'm thinking it's more like high fraction STL, honestly, after understanding the distances involved) to do special high-speed maneuvers.

Therefore, it's not really a speed issue so much as a reason why battles are carried out at sublight speed at all...
~ Firstly, it could merely be a issue of weapon ranges; there's no point zipping around if your weapons are only going to be useful at point-blank ranges.
~ Secondly, maybe to have main weapon batteries online along with shielding that ships can't afford to keep up FTL speed; so any ship intending to fight and defend itself is stuck going at STL speeds due to power demand.
~ Thirdly, going faster than your torpedoes and lazors is pretty lame. You'd just fly right into them.
~ Fourthly, it could be a sensor limitation. Maybe even quantum computers like MEGAMIs have their limits, despite the description Wes gave them.
~ Fifth, it could be an engine charge time limitation that prevents ships to joust at each other in superluminal jousting contests.

So, yeah, this would need to be, more or less, further detailed and ironed out... because as is, the interdiction fields aren't doing the job well enough to confirm why a ship is committed to STL combat or not to make those weapons we use credible (because in general, if we follow Wes' medium for warfare we want to avoid clinical long-distance warfare and have more 'exciting' closer ranged battles).

 

[Zack]

If interdiction isn't doing it for you then I think you aren't bringing enough interdiction to the party. Massed interdiction like the kind typical fleets would use in this setting would shut down FTL to the point where everyone must use STL engines or expend a lot of ships and power to overcome the interdiction in a small target area. We already have the mechanics to make people fight at STL speeds they just aren't used because the 'bad guys' tend to just get shot up real quick and not put up much of a fight.

Though that doesn't really matter, nerfing the CDD is a job for another thread?

Low acceleration values, (lets base them on actual acceleration values for rockets) mean a few changes for the setting but don't actually require any ret-con outside of what may have already happened in an RP which like star-destroyers or tech-priests just doesn't get mentioned again.

* No speed ret-con, Acceleration is not speed, so we don't need to change this value anywhere in any wiki article.

* Actual space combat, FTL not withstanding low acceleration speeds means one high speed pass at a time for each ship. Each gets a chance to use pretty much every weapon at their disposal due to lag time preventing one shot instant-kills. After all even if you destroy the enemy ship you still have to deal with the guns they already fired at you which requires your point defense to be used.

* No plot slowdown, Ships will retain their high 'speed' but will require considerable time to accelerate to said speed. In combat where things happen fast this will be an issue but when moving from planet to planet not so much. This means GMs won't have to give people something to do while traveling from place to place.

* Ease of use, We also don't require a complicated system for this, just a table of what is acceptable for acceleration then a table for approximate travel time for STL for a long distance. Anyone should be able to use both tables to quickly determine how long it will take to go from point A to point B. Also people will be able to say 'hey, this ship can catch up with that ship'.


I think that 10-30 m/s acceleration (1-3 Gs worth) is good for a low tech ship and 100-200 m/s acceleration (10-20 Gs worth) is good for the higher tech ships which would have inertial dampening uber-tech. Of course you still run into the problem of running into your own bullets, but people need to learn to play with space physics? Namely if you fire something without an engine it will move at constant speed while you still accelerate towards it.



Edit: SCORE, found the example I was looking for of STL combat at reasonable speeds: http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/Throug ... ample.html

Skip the first sample and read sample #2. My suggested acceleration values would mean that ships move faster than this, but engagement ranges will be far greater too so I think it will balance out quite nicely.

 

[Soresu]

Or. Here is a cheap, easy and vastly simpler solution then changing speeds...again, for the upteenth time. While everyone goes for 'Uniform Speed' why don't we use that simple two worded thing we use in our IRL lives. "Common Sense", yes, I said it. "Common Sense." Everything, going the same speed is ridiculous and utterly bland, and is only used due to everyone else having it, and wanting to remain a contender. Does changing the speeds...again fix this? No, no it does not. We will have the same problems, 'Uniform Speed', again, and again, and again. (And frankly, in STL Space Battles I don't zip around at .375c anyways, preferring something slower so I can savor my writing craft. .375c is fine as a cruising speed for some sure, but fighting at it is like trying to catch a brick with your face from mid-air.)

Plus, this may also have to include another nerf to torpedo, and missile speeds as well, inducing more work. If people were just a tad more humble, and instead of just trying to match everyone else, we'd be fine and dandy. Some race's tech is better then others, some isn't. Fact of the matter is, We should know, already the limits of what our stuff can do, but, we do not. That is the only problem I see. Acceleration is all fine and dandy, but let's for the sake of stuff like this not cropping up again in the long run, use those two words I used previously, and not try to start more of the same. Having the best on everything isn't really good variety wise, is it? I don't think so. I am sure others feel the same. Variety, Flavor, and above all else, using the noodle, feasibility and fairness is where it should be at.

 

[Zack]

Everyone has different ideas of what is reasonable. Common sense is not good rule policy, things need to be set in stone so to speak.

Once we outline what is feasible with a good rules set then these problems will go away because quite frankly a majority of the GMs don't have good common sense when it comes to basic physics problems.

For that matter we could include a fuel rating for ships. Nothing to complex that would require rocket science but perhaps a time limit on how long ships can thrust? The end result would be more of a focus on maneuvering than just outrunning things, as well as helping enforce slower STL battles without requiring ret-con.

 

[Soresu]

Rule Policy is something not being discussed in here Uso. Common Sense would've worked here if we all used it, and kept things reasonable, and fair, otherwise, we wouldn't all be having this discussion. Besides, fuel? in this setting? Right... I've said what I've got to say on this subject, I was in there when the whole speed thing first started, and it is going back there, again. I'd rather we not have to institute anymore changes to a system that already we all have compromised on, but instead change the speeds we have already on our ships around a little bit. How simple is that? If everyone compromised before on such a speed restriction that is in place now, why not instead, shuffle the speeds up, no more .375c on Flagships, Battleships and so on, reduce them a little bit, get a feel for where it would fit, and ask yourself where it would fit.

It is an extremely simple solution to a problem that is being over complicated. Instead of running, and gunning for that '.375c' change it up some, make some things slower, interchange things. Seriously, Fuel, Time Limits and what not? I'd outright refuse to use all that right off the bat due to it simply not fitting here well, at all.:|

Because quite frankly a majority of the GMs don't have good common sense when it comes to basic physics problems.

And frankly, I don't want to involve 'Physics' in my roleplay, but 'Fun' I do I try to steer clear of having to do this and that, get a diploma, degree and what not to rp. But I do appreciate you for saying a majority of us apparently don't have good Common Sense with basic physics problems when we're roleplaying on in a fictional science fiction setting. :\

 

[Zack]

Lowering STL speeds won't do anything, it has been tried in the past and it failed to accomplish what it set out to do.

.375c is enough to allow shuttles to destroy planets by smacking into them at top speed.

Speed also does not make sense in space as the only time a ship isn't accelerating is never. Acceleration is far more useful because it lets people have a way of determining how fast a distance will be closed.

For that matter .375c relative to what? What happens if I try and use a planet's gravity to build up speed past that? What if someone shoots at me, will I be able to outrun or dodge the projectile in time? Acceleration values neatly solve all of these problems.

If everyone asks themselves where their speed would fit they would either pick an arbitrary number or pick a number higher than everyone else so that they won't get left behind. Speed rules were implemented in the first place partially to solve this problem and they were ok back then because no one really knew any better. All of the above problems are easily solved by adding an acceleration value to ships so why not include it? The 1-10G worth of acceleration range seems reasonable to me, and a time limit on a ship's ability to thrust without refueling might be a bit on the hardcore side but I think it would be cool.

 

[Soresu]

Ask yourself this. While the maximum is .375c. Do we fight at it? Or do we slow down?

 

[Zack]

That is a poor question. This is space, not ships on the water. Top speed doesn't apply here, for example:

Where are we fighting? If there is a planet nearby can my ship exceed its max speed? Of course it could but then why do we have a max speed listing for ships? (Of course I know it was because this was back when we used FTL for STL speeds so everyone had a max of .99c STL speed. The new speed changes broke that and caused the problems we have now, but oh well.)

If I am already moving at said speed do my engines stop working? After all there should be no reason why my ship if it is already moving at that speed couldn't just fire a rocket and go faster. Fuel permitting of course.

.375c realitive to what? Of course this works with any speed limit but if the enemy is closing at .375c then my ship to him is already moving at .375c and can't accelerate? Or maybe it is .375c for the closest planet but then what happens when you near another planet? Or perhaps it is .375c for some arbitrary point in the universe at which point you could end up going much, much, much faster than anything in one of the star systems possibly even preventing you from actually landing on a planet.

If we have a max, and you want us to go slower on common sense then what speed do we move at? If we pick arbitrary numbers why not pick the one that gives my plot ship the best chance at surviving?

If the maximum is whatever, and that is still high enough to let me blow up a planet with my power armor then there is nothing stopping me from doing so by just dropping one off a civilian transport and going zoom into the planet.

No matter what the max speed you set, these problems still apply. This is not a problem with how fast ships go but with using speed instead of acceleration because people don't understand space.

 

[Soresu]

That is a poor question. This is space, not ships on the water. Top speed doesn't apply here.

Hardly. Now see, you're over complicating an overly simple matter. Top speed DOES apply here. You see the little STL Speed article on the wiki? Top Speed. Do we use it during dog fights? Unlikely, lower speeds would be more likely in space based engagements but it is nice to know just how fast something goes, no? So what if people don't understand space? We're here to have fun, not cram for a final.

 

[Zack]

Being that a large portion of RP on this site takes place in space it might be nice to know how space works.

IE: if we have high speed and high acceleration then we can dogfight (FTL combat)

If we have high speed and low acceleration then ships will make one pass and maneuver the entire time.

If we have low speed and low acceleration then ships will likely fight using uber-range missile barrages and the like as they slowly move towards each other.


Right now it is the first option even at STL speeds and that is making people who try and follow the rules a bit unhappy with the combat mechanics because they don't make that much sense.

Just saying a ship moves at less than top speed generates tons of common sense problems like: what speed is my ship moving at now? How am I supposed to figure out where I am compared to my ship? can I match speeds and land on the planet? How do I figure out how long it will take to reach the enemy ship?

It would be nice if players had the tools to figure this stuff out for themselves so GMs can do their job of GMing instead of trying to make and enforce their views of combat mechanics.

 

[Soresu]

I think we all understand just enough of space to do what we do. Plain and simple. But, let's try to focus more on this topic then debating space in general.

 

[Zack]

I don't think enough people really do understand, and end up treating space like water for wet navy ships and this causes problems. I'll point to Fred's earlier post where he pretty much says that he is having this kind of problem.

The nature of space is the point behind this topic, things act differently in space than they do on a planet. Using a speed limit in space just doesn't work. This in turn causes problems in RP.

The solution? Max acceleration values for ships.

By including a distance vs time table for acceleration values no one will really have to do any math for this either making it noob friendly too.

 

[Soresu]

No Uso, the nature of the topic isn't space. It is acceleration, or just plain changes to speed. It may cause complications for YOU, but not me. For me, the ship moves, it putters about, stops, moves again, turns, and shoots, or docks, or lands. Plain, and, simple. Over complicating it by adding more to this could potentially scare the new people away, or make them scratch their heads. Look at the thread, who but us, and a select few others have posted in here.

It would be more of a hindrance for writers then anything, what of the abstract writers? What of those that don't care a nit for all of this stuff, and want to just have fun?

 

[Zack]

How would it hurt writers? The same limitations would exist without the problems. A secondary distance table would make figuring out how long it takes to get somewhere even easier than the current system. I don't think acceleration is that hard a concept for people to understand and it would solve numerous problems for those that are trying to follow the rules.


Using the previous system would be fine if this weren't an RP, but it is and people need to be able to use their gear without waiting for a GM to tell them what it does in every post.

For example what if you wanted to enter someone else's plot? With two different interpretations of how ships work there will be problems. Good rules solves this.

 

[Soresu]

Uh, hm, let's see. Do we all want to bring up charts, and graphs, calculators, and enough reference material to choke a goat with everytime we want to RP, or do we just want to have the GM work with the player, and let the player help, or outright decide? That's what I tended to do. But really, Rules, Rules, More Rules, Rules? *Nods* Rules. Rules Rules? Rules.

I thought this was an RP, and Rp = Fun, whut?

Now you're attempting to pin it on the GM, what would work is good communication between the players and GMs, and so on.

I don't think acceleration is that hard a concept for people to understand.

If we accelerate at 45km/s to .343c, how long will it take?

Do I want to figure this out? Do the players want to figure this out? Every, single, time?