M41-A5 MSMWS

[SaltedFish]

Producer Information
Designer:
Manufacturer:
(Suggested) Price: 7,500 KS
Individual Component Costs:
M41-A5 Carbine: 7,000 KS
M41-A5 Carbine ammo tank: 500 KS

Nomenclature Information
Name: M41-A5 MSMWS
Type: Magnetorheological Weapons System
Role: Engaging various targets at Close/Medium/Long ranges
Length: 75 cm
Weight: 4 Kg

Discharge Information
Projection/ammo type: Magnetorheological railgun rounds
Firing Mechanism: A certain amount of magnetorheological liquid(liquid that solidifies when exposed to magnetic fields, see below) is held in the firing chamber. Upon the the trigger being pulled, information on the range to target is fed into the firing computer. The round is then launched down the barrel of the weapon towards its target.
Effective Range: 20m/300m/1200m
Maximum Range: 1200m
Minimum Range: none
Muzzle Velocity: 600m/s, 1800m/s, 2300m/s
Muzzle Blast: none
Firing Mode(s): Single, auto
Recoil: none

Damage Description:
As a railgun, this weapon has very high muzzle velocities. Damage is derived from impact of slug hitting the body of the target.

Also contains a 12 cm long stabbing bayonet in the stock of the weapon. To use, the weapon is held normall, but the stock is swung out in a short, brutal arc using the right hand. Gyroscopes in the weapon notice this motion and the spike shoots out into the target. This spike can also be electrified, but drains the battery at a ferocious rate.

Expanded Firing Description:
Due to the variety of targets encountered by soldeirs on the field, they are often weighed down with many weapons. This carbine was designed to answer this problem. The secret lies in the liquid ammunition. It is contained inside a tank, attached underneath the barrel, which is insulated from magnetic fields. For each round, a portion of this liquid is drawn into the firing chamber using simple pumps, whereupon the liquid is forced to solidify after being exposed to magnetic fields. Below the muzzle is a small ranging computer, which constantly monitors the distance to target where ever the weapon is poined. Upon firing, the computer judges the distance, and determines the best way to eliminate that target:

Range < 20m: Shot is accelerated down the barrel, and is exposed to a destabalizing magnetic field at the end of the barrel, causing the shot to deform and expand, forming a backards cone which smashes into the target with an effect similar to a shotgun blast.
20m < Range < 650m: Shot is accelerated down the barrel, spiralling using the rifling inside the barrel to give the shot spin, to prevent the liquid from spraying after exiting the barrel. Shot continues to its target as a normal railgun shot.
Range > 650m: This mode is purely for snipers. A larger amount of liquid is drawn from the container, as well as more energy from the battery. The increased weight of the projectile helps improve ballistics over long ranges.

Ammo Description:
Name: Magnetorheological Liquid Tank
Visual Description: Medium size container about the sixe of a breadbox. Dull grey in color, weighs 2.2 kg full. (.5 kg empty)
Shots:
Close Range: 50 @ 34g/shot
Medium Range: 50 @ 34g/shot
Long Range: 25 @ 68g/shot

Ammo Description:
Name: M5 MSMWS Battery
Visual Description: Holds 200 charges. Held in stock of weapon, helps balance overall weapon.
Drain quantities:
Close Range: 1 Charge
Medium Range: 1 Charge
Long Range: 5 Charges

Weapon Mechanisms:
Safety: trigger safety
Fire mode selector: Single shot in close range mode, single and auto in medium range, and single in long range mode. For medium ranges, a light pull allows for a single shot, a heavy pull provides auto fire.
Weapon Sight: The M41-A5 has an interesting sight system. In order to maximize the accuracy, two sights are issued with each weapon: a simple 3x reflex sight, mounted on a rotating bracket with a 20x scope. For sniping roles, the relfex sight spins on an axis parallel to the barrel to expose the sniper scope. This is to protect the expensive scope fom wear and tear when not in use.
Attachment Hard points: Flashlight and/or laser sight mount on left side of barrel.

Maintenance Information:
Field Maintenance Procedure: Simple maintanence of the barrel is required, to keep it free of dirt and other contaminants. The weapon has no moving parts, other than the trigger than the spike bayonet.
Replaceable Parts and components: If the weapon is somehow rendered useless, the internal components are far too complex to repair in the field, and must be sent to a certified repair facility.


Visual Description:
Picture
The M41-A5 is a sleek, streamlined looking weapon. The grips are rubberized, to allow for better grips in controlling this admittadly heavy weapon. The wepaon is otherwise nicely balanced, and the reflex sights are easy to use. The outer shell comes in a variety of colors, such a camouflage, desert camo, or urban camo.

 

[Yuuki]

That's a very nice weapon, the things it does at close range is good. Seems very Nepleslian.

Couple things:

Is there a need fulfilled by this weapon, or is it a design for the sake of designing something? Tech isn't developed for the sake of having something new. Was there something lacking in what was already around that this thing was invented to take care of? There are plenty of personal railguns already. Have you looked through them?

Snipers, 1200m+: Where is there going to be a situation where someone is going to have a shot at that range for ballistics to make a difference? Most engagements at that range are going to be in space, away from significant gravitational fields. There aren't many places where you can even see something over a kilometer away. I suppose in open plains, for example, the longest recorded sniper kill in Afghanistan was by a Canadian SF sniper at well over 2km, but when is this going to happen in a heavily urbanized environment like Neplesia? And certainly not aboard ship. Goes back to the first point.


There is nothing wrong with the weapon itself, it's very nice. Except possibly the weight on the tank. 50 shots, the tank weighs 2.2 Kg full? Or is that the base weight of an empty tank? Or does it hold 2.2Kg of material?

That brings me to one last point: 2.2Kg of material, each round will weigh 44grams, or 88 at long distance. That produces energies of 79.2kJ, 71,280kJ, or 232.76kJ respectively, per range. In SARP tech, there isn't much problem with producing the energy to accelerate such a mass to such a velocity. And, with such a large projectile, it is pretty certain that about all of that energy will get transferred to the target, especially at the short range. Just making sure that you are aware of what that will do. You might want to rethink its intended role.

However, in summation, I like it.

 

[SaltedFish]

Is there a need fulfilled by this weapon, or is it a design for the sake of designing something? Tech isn't developed for the sake of having something new. Was there something lacking in what was already around that this thing was invented to take care of? There are plenty of personal railguns already. Have you looked through them?

Yes, I know there are a number of personal railguns, but they all seem to be for long range useage. The purpose for this weapon was to take a sniper rifle, shotgun and assault rifle and combine them into one. this weapon would give extreme flexibility to any soldeir that carries it. He will be able to efficiently engage targets at any range, without having to change weapons. Thats basically the motive for this weapon.

Snipers, 1200m+: Where is there going to be a situation where someone is going to have a shot at that range for ballistics to make a difference? Most engagements at that range are going to be in space, away from significant gravitational fields. There aren't many places where you can even see something over a kilometer away. I suppose in open plains, for example, the longest recorded sniper kill in Afghanistan was by a Canadian SF sniper at well over 2km, but when is this going to happen in a heavily urbanized environment like Nepleslia? And certainly not aboard ship. Goes back to the first point.

I had forgotten that most of Nepleslia is urbanized. 1200m is a really long distance, so how bout at any ranges beyond 650m the rifle switches to long range mode. that way, if you;re sitting on top of a building and sniping at targets, you're covered.

There is nothing wrong with the weapon itself, it's very nice. Except possibly the weight on the tank. 50 shots, the tank weighs 2.2 Kg full? Or is that the base weight of an empty tank? Or does it hold 2.2Kg of material?

That brings me to one last point: 2.2Kg of material, each round will weigh 44grams, or 88 at long distance. That produces energies of 425kJ, 142.56MJ, or 465.52MJ respectively, per range. In SARP tech, there isn't much problem with producing the energy to accelerate such a mass to such a velocity. And, with such a large projectile, it is pretty certain that about all of that energy will get transferred to the target, especially at the short range. Just making sure that you are aware of what that will do. You might want to rethink its intended role.

However, in summation, I like it.

I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here. Are you saying it's way overpowered? Granted, I didn't do any math on this, so the numbers may be (a) off completely or (b) higher than they need to be. again, going back to the whole "one weapon for everything" philosophy, this heavy hitting power would make it useful up to medium armored targets. *shrugs*

Using my new values, those numbers work out to:
Close Range: 50 @ 34g/shot, 600m/s (KE = 6,120 J)
Medium Range: 50 @ 34g/shot, 1800m/s (KE = 56,080 J)
Long Range: 25 @ 68g/shot, 2300m/s (KE = 179,860 J)

using KE = .5mv^2

does that answer your questions?

 

[Yuuki]

(Edited the M i accidentally hit to a K for the sake of clarity. THey're kiljoules, not megajoules)


It's not overpowered in terms of SARP, but, maybe for the role:

A .50BMG round is about 46 grams and can attain a muzzle velocity upwards of 1000m/s. Using the Army's number of about 899 m/s, that's about 19 kj. That's with a cheap, traditional round that has been around since the turn of the 20th century. They're excellent against modern light-medium armored vehicles.

A soft liquid, while it would be more efficient at surface energy transferrence, rather than just penetration as the M2 is wont to do.

This weapon would be more like hitting something with a car than shooting it.

That's what I like about it...

But there's a reason there is no 1 weapon for everything and that railguns are long range.

 

[Kimura]

Muzzle Velocity: 600m/s, 1800m/s, 2300m/s
Close Range: 50 @ 34g/shot
Medium Range: 50 @ 34g/shot
Long Range: 25 @ 68g/shot
Recoil: none

I think not. Even the short-ranged 34g*600m/s=20.4kg*m/s. For comparison, your average pistol with a 9mil bullet (~9g) shooting at an ordinary 375 m/s produces a recoil momentum of 3.4kg*m/s; I'd hardly consider 6 times that to be 'none'.

How come everyone seems to think railguns have no recoil? I blame Quake 3.

 

[Harlequin]

I blame a lack of practical understanding of Newtonian physics, firearms, and a desire to make their items the new hot shit.

 

[Cora]

I more blaim the mentality of "They made a big, useless gun... I need to make a BIGGER useless gun" myself.

 

[SaltedFish]

Muzzle Velocity: 600m/s, 1800m/s, 2300m/s
Close Range: 50 @ 34g/shot
Medium Range: 50 @ 34g/shot
Long Range: 25 @ 68g/shot
Recoil: none

I think not. Even the short-ranged 34g*600m/s=20.4kg*m/s. For comparison, your average pistol with a 9mil bullet (~9g) shooting at an ordinary 375 m/s produces a recoil momentum of 3.4kg*m/s; I'd hardly consider 6 times that to be 'none'.

How come everyone seems to think railguns have no recoil? I blame Quake 3.

While the recoil would indeed be moderate, one must take into account the weight of the weapon, and the low impulse generated by railguns in general.

Okay, math time. Lets settle this once and for all.

This, my friends, is the law of conservation of momentum, courtesy Wikipedia. Look it up if you like.

in this equation, M and V are the mass and velocity, respectively, of the shooter, and m and v are the mass and velocity of the bullet, respectively.

If we take an 82 kg man, and the mass of the projectile is .034 kg and its velocity is 600 m/s, we can find the remaining variable:

(This is gonna be fun)

.5MV^2 = .5M(mv/M)^2 = .5(m/M)mv^2
.5(82)(V^2) = .5(82)(.034 * 600 / 82)^2 = .5(.034/82)(.034)(600^2)
41V^2 = 2.54 = 2.54
41V^2 = 2.54
V^2 = .062
V = .25 m/s

Now thats for the short range. I'll do the long range:

.5MV^2 = .5M(mv/M)^2 = .5(m/M)mv^2
.5(82)(V^2) = .5(82)(.034 * 2300 / 82)^2 = .5(.034/82)(.034)(2300^2)
41V^2 = 37.3 = 37.3
41V^2 = 37.3
V^2 = .91
V = .95 m/s

What, exactly, I'm supposed to make of that, I'm not sure. i shall ask my advanced physics teacher tomorrow about this. I *must* figure this out. I am now a man with a mission. arr. It might be that you are right, Kimura, but personally I think you are not. Time will tell.

 

[Kimura]

This is almost exactly what I previously calculated (20 kg*m/s divided by 80kg is .25 m/s) but unless the gun is connected to the person's armour, it's not the weight of the man which matters - it's the weight of the gun. 4.5kg total empty, 6.2kg full... This means the gun recoils at a speed of about 3-5 m/s, or maybe 9 miles per hour on average. A 5kg object hitting your shoulder at that speed is far from trivial, and 'none' is simply not correct. However, it is not unrealistic for a rifle to have this kind of recoil; it wouldn't be unusable, it's just that you would definitely know the shot went off.

I DO like the concept of the gun, though. Railguns have so much unexplored potential, kickback aside.

 

[Yuuki]

Current research in superconducting rail technology suggests it is to mount the rails on a sliding mechanism that makes the rails slide backwards into the breech, smiliar to the slide in a recoil-operated firearm, like the systems H&K is using to replace blowback-operated weapons.

Link (PDF)

This is because of the great amount of recoil generated by a railgun, the opposite reaction to the force propelling the projectile.

In a combustion weapon, remember, the recoil isn't generated by the forward motion of the projectile: it is caused by the force of the propellant, which is approximately equal to the momentum of the projectile, as it acts equally in all directions, a perfect sphere, assuming ideal conditions with the propellant burning evenly.. It is actually a vector sum: the difference between the total force of the propellant versus the mass of the weapon, what escapes through the barrel after the projectile leaves, and the backward motion of whatever mechanism cycles the round (this is why an automatic weapon will have less felt recoil than the same round fired from, for example a revolver or single-shot weapon).

Simply applying the momentum of the bullet to the mass of the weapon is only an approximation, as the projectile motion is a reaction as well.

Since railguns don't have these mitigating factors, their recoil force is immense. The biggest factor in railgun recoil is the force directed outwards against the rails themselves, which is currently the biggest obstacle to a practical rail weapon:

http://www.df.lth.se/~snorkelf/Longitudinal/node5.html

As an aside, this factor itself makes the Gauss Rifle, in some ways, a much more feasible weapon. Of course, it and the railgun are often confused anyway, especially in Science fiction and games, because of the
similarities.

You know, in Rifts, the tabletop RPG, the Glitter Boys had to have these huge hydraulic spikes come out of their power armor and root them to the ground to use their Boomguns, I guess no one has played that either... >.>

 

[SaltedFish]

but unless the gun is connected to the person's armour, it's not the weight of the man which matters

Well, actually, the man's mass *is* included in this case, since its a system of particles. But even then, the recoil isn't all that bad, and since you're wearing armor, that will help absorb some of it. For the sniper role, you'd better be laying down anyway, or have the gun braced on a bipod or on a ledge.

The biggest factor in railgun recoil is the force directed outwards against the rails themselves, which is currently the biggest obstacle to a practical rail weapon

Well, apparently this has been (a) solved or (b) ignored. If (a), then we can all rest happy, knowing all of our wepaons won't suddenly fall apart on us If (b), then, well... damn..

I have considered using hydraoulics or compressed gasses to absorb recoil, but it would foul follow-up shots, because the entire gun would shrink and expand, messing up your aim.

 

[Kimura]

You include the mass of the man if you want to find out how fast he goes flying backwards with every shot. If you just want to find out how fast the gun is kicked back, you should only take into account the mass of the rifle, since that's what makes bruises on a person's shoulder.
Also, .25 m/s is not trivial; assuming the person's body absorbs the shock of being hit by the recoiling rifle - which is not unrealistic - he or she will have to brace him/herself or at least have a special stance in order to not fall over backwards, even on short-range mode.

As far as the rails go, if they were attached to very strong springs or something, they could resist the force without breaking, but otherwise they would get bent after a few cartridges and have to be replaced.

 

[Yuuki]

This is why your M16 or M4 or whatever doesn't have hardly any kick at all, despite it being such a high-energy round, traveling at about 950m/s, because the gases are vented backwards to cycle the bolt, and thus the buffer spring absorbs the force of the recoil for you. If you loaded the same round into a break-open single-shot rifle, or, for example, replaced the buffer spring with something stiff, it would really hurt.


And, as the generous folks at the physics labs were so kind as to point out, any feasible railgun system would include a sliding launch mechanism. Since the recoil of a railgun does indeed come from the momentum of the projectile, and not the expansion of gases that can be vented away, you're going to eat all of it, and for that matter, snap the rails off. I'm not sure how this would affect your aim, as you say, larger weapons do this quite bit, and it isn't fundamentally different from the slide or bolt carrier in a conventional firearm.

 

[SaltedFish]

I'm not sure how this would affect your aim, as you say, larger weapons do this quite bit, and it isn't fundamentally different from the slide or bolt carrier in a conventional firearm.

Well, by "hydraulic shock absorber" I mean like pistons in the stock that absorbe the recoil. Since the butt of the weapon against your shoulder is the most important point of contact, anything that upsets that contact(ie, moves backwards, and up or down, or just moves in general) is going to effect your aim. The reason really bigs guns have recoil absorbers is because they are just that: big. Take a tank for instance. Usually a 120mm cannon, it's rate of fire is pretty low, maybe one round every 5-10 seconds, if they are just pumping lead. during that time, the gun is allwed to cycle to its usual position, and reaimed. Then take elephant guns for instance. They have massive recoil, and yet although the technology exists, there are no extraordinary recoil dampeners on them. Usually just a rubber pad.

Yeah, Kimura you're right. But this does mean we need to look at railguns in general on this site.

 

[Yuuki]

You're talking to a consistent 40/40 shooter during my tenure there.


Look, something moving back and forth inside the weapon, isn't really going to interfere with it. The papers I linked too said, in plain language, that such a mechanism was a base requirement for a railgun.

 

[SaltedFish]

You're talking to a consistent 40/40 shooter during my tenure there.

What does this mean? I do some shooting myself, and I'm always wanting to expand my vocabulary.

Look, something moving back and forth inside the weapon, isn't really going to interfere with it. The papers I linked too said, in plain language, that such a mechanism was a base requirement for a railgun.

You're right. Something inside the weapon isn't going to effect it all that much. The point I'm trying to make is that if the entire weapon moves around, your aim is gonna be all over the place.

The PDF link needs a password.

As for that other one, well, it looks like a mass of experiments and equations. Most of it involves physics I haven't learned yet. Could you perhaps explain it?

 

[Wes]

You're talking to a consistent 40/40 shooter during my tenure there.

What does this mean? I do some shooting myself, and I'm always wanting to expand my vocabulary.

Army rifle qualification tests consist of two sets of two twenty pop-up targets in random sequence (one in a foxhole supported position and the other prone unsupported). Some targets are alone, some are two at once. Targets stay up for 3-5 seconds and range from 50 to 300 meters. You have one round for each target. 23/40 is required to pass (marksman). If you can hit them all, that's 40 of 40 (Expert).

 

[SaltedFish]

You're talking to a consistent 40/40 shooter during my tenure there.

What does this mean? I do some shooting myself, and I'm always wanting to expand my vocabulary.

Army rifle qualification tests consist of two sets of two twenty pop-up targets in random sequence (one in a foxhole supported position and the other prone unsupported). Some targets are alone, some are two at once. Targets stay up for 3-5 seconds and range from 50 to 300 meters. You have one round for each target. 23/40 is required to pass (marksman). If you can hit them all, that's 40 of 40 (Expert).

Niftyness. But that doesn't prove or disprove my previous point. Where are we going with this anyway?
We've proved that:
>railguns have recoil
>this gun has some repectable kick
>recoil dampeners are not an option
>and that all railguns(on this site) need to be looked at.

 

[Yuuki]

No the point of it was, is that recoil dampeners are a reqirement, not an option.

 

[SaltedFish]

No the point of it was, is that recoil dampeners are a reqirement, not an option.

Okay. So being the one person here who seems to have the most experience, what kind of recoil dampener would you suggest?