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Mandatory Upgrades

Except they still won't get any promotions and commendations for their service correct? If they 'do not' upgrade.
No. The new post make the order only apply to:
  • NH-1 (Geshrin)
  • NH-22 (Military and Civilian models)
  • NH-27
  • NH-28
  • Any other NH-series model made prior to YE 30, excluding the NH-29
 
I don't know why Geshrins are included in the mandatory upgrades really. Most of their bodies are not something that belongs to the military. Same with NH22. I mean you allow Neps and Elysians remain the same, but force Yammies to upgrade to minkan? People play Geshrins, because they want to play geshrins. Everyone who uses body as an article of clothing already upgraded to Minkan, the rest remained to stay the way they are. I personally thing you should respect that.
 
Well, let's remember that the limitation as applied is a requirement to serve in the Star Army of Yamatai - Yamatai Star Empire's interstellar military. Nothing stops geshrins or yamataians to keep existing outside of that just as they please.

Yui is also a bit of an elitist whom doesn't like perceiving to have any weak links in her organization, and less recent bodies figure in that. There's justification, from where she stands, to enforce such a measure not only for the sake of performance but also to insurre that any non-upgraded member not become a potential liability on the field to other soldiers (whom may be slowed down, or forced to compensate for the lacking ability of 'dated-bodies').

There's no denying that it makes sense, but there's also no denying how this is an hypocritical double-standard, simply on the level of how such people have managed fine in the past; most Nepleslian soldiers would probably eyeroll at Yamatai in this regard, and the Nepleslian military performs just fine. It's mostly just a matter of colored IC/OoC perception and narrative choices (for example, Wes decided to believe that having more body types walking around was confusing, rather than setting enriching legacy).

A lot of this is also based on the perception that the NH bodies are just hardware, something I've put my neck out to have Kotori dispute. All of you whom have been unhappy about this... Kotori's giving voice to it and giving a chance to change things. It doesn't cover the whole issue, as Kotorican only confidently represent NH-29 nekovalkyrja and youngling-born nekos, but it's a start.
 
Well I will not presume to say what is in Wes' mind. I do not adhere to the Neko = equipment. I also did not have problems with older character being around, except perhaps when they OP the other players. My issue has been people insisting on making new characters from the older forms. I liked GM's having the option to mention older series as NPCs and such. Just no new say NH17 pc. But that is just me. Obviously this was what Wes envisioned when made some the generators.
 
My issue has been people insisting on making new characters from the older forms..
My logic is that if the Star Army won't employ/hire people using these body types, they'll eventually fade away on their own because people will join using Minkan and NH-33 characters. The Star Army is the biggest employer in Yamatai, at least with PCs. I know the phasing out old bodies is painful (so much so that the original push to upgrades came in the form of a plague to be successful) but hopefully these will be the "final form" at least for the NH-31. The NH-31 and NH-33 are the approved civilian/military replacements (not additions), so let's get started with the replacing.
 
Could we have it amended to allow the 22s to remain as well? Since the 22 and the 29 went hand in hand for a long time, so I think it makes sense to do both if you're going to make an exception for one. That one addition would remove almost all of my objections. Still not a fan of "hey, if you die, we're changing your body, kthnksbye" but I'll deal with that part.
 
Well, Kotori's crusade on the Senate is mostly about the NH-29. I thought of the NH-22C too, but it kind of felt like I'd be too greedy and would diminish my chances of getting something across. I'd be fine with lenience in that respect, but that's a torch for someone else to carry.

Me, I just want to get the NH-29 back to the way I've designed it and got it approved - before Wes edited them to the way they are interpreted now and forced us to go along. It'd give me some justice as to how my submission should have been, solves the neko species/hardware divide, and doesn't steal the niche Nashoba's work was created to fill.
 
Me, I just want to get the NH-29 back to the way I've designed it and got it approved - before Wes edited them to the way they are interpreted now and forced us to go along. It'd give me some justice as to how my submission should have been, solves the neko species/hardware divide, and doesn't steal the niche Nashoba's work was created to fill.
What changes are we talking about here? I am not very keen on the idea of retcons for a species that many players are still using.
Could we have it amended to allow the 22s to remain as well? Since the 22 and the 29 went hand in hand for a long time, so I think it makes sense to do both if you're going to make an exception for one.
Maybe. I hate to keep taking backsteps with this though.
 
What changes are we talking about here? I am not very keen on the idea of retcons for a species that many players are still using.
It's mostly a lifestyle and perception issue, Wes. The NH-29 had been submitted and approved as the first standalone neko "species" that weren't just created to be weapons, would be more maintenance-free, would have more analog minds contrary to the very digital OSes of the preceeding models. They traded strength for stamina, which made them more approachable civilian-side, but that was okay since it was assumed the "power armor system" would "complete them" if they were called to fight. As the first KZ neko (from the nekos that make things for neko) it made a whole lot of sense.

You changed it so that they remain purely military property, a move which kind of made the whole incentive behind the creation of the NH-29 redundant. It's not a retcon so much as an IC fix for your retcon. It's allowing them to be what they had been supposed to be in the first place, but hadn't been given the room to be.

In that Senate thread, Kotori's just essentially asking for the equivalent.

Maybe. I hate to keep taking backsteps with this though.
And yet you stand to gain so much by it, just by how happy it would make several active and long-standing members of your community be.
 
I would like to not one thing, that Nashoba mentioned here earlier too. When he made NH31 and 33 he did not make them to be replacement, but upgrade. Voluntary upgrade. He said it so right, here in this thread. You told him Wes that upgrading wont be mandatory. That was one of the reason, why people are having trouble accepting this now. At least I assume so.
 
Jon hit the nail on the head. When the models were up for submission in the first place, we raised the exact same objections as we are raising now, but backed down because you'd satisfied our worries by clarifying that this was voluntary only. By taking that back and making things mandatory again, you've just removed the only reason an apparently fairly large number of us didn't object more in the first place. And for all of your desire to streamline things, every time you've tried, the general response from the players (be it uniforms or bodies) has been negative. We're in no way against adding new things that players can utilize, we're against you removing writing tools and setting elements that we've not only used, but come to love.
 
Another question. Will Star Army Personnel Management honor exceptions to article 4 issued by a soldier's chain of command? In other words, will Chujo Minori's people stop Chujo Fujita or Chujo Opal or Chujo Shida's orders if they were to ignore article 4 on the chance they value certain personnel assets who cannot upgrade for ~reasons~? Or would that create an awkward bureaucratic mess?
No, Star Army Personnel is bound to follow command's orders. Any officer that interferes with a command from the Star Army's commander would definitely face a court martial and it'd be the end of their career.

In that case, since I can't use the IC bureaucracy to fix the issue, can I get an OOC-motivated exception for my Geshrin character that has existed since 2005? I would definitely like to continue playing Yamatai and supporting the faction from an OOC standpoint.
 
I feel that ShotJon and Aendri are on the right track here, but I'm going to take it further and look at it from the very root from which it's all come from.

The players are here to have fun roleplaying in the setting. It's why they are here, it's why I am here, and I assume it's why all of you are here as well. To have fun. However, if something detracts from that for a large portion of the playerbase here, then we can expect this kind of mess to happen every single time and without fail. The bottom line is that being forced to RP as NH-31s or 33's IS NOT FUN for a large portion of the playerbase. This issue has been a problem time and time again, and in many different forms. Body changes forced by use of an IC Plague was not fun for the players, was it? The same for uniform changes - I know I didn't enjoy that, with the same for many others. A lot of art even became obsolete as a result.

Sure, we have IC justifications, but the most raw truth? The IC justifications don't matter at all. In the face of reality - that is, real life - they're completely worthless if they do not cater to the playerbase. We even have some OOC justifications for this change, but even that (simplifying the models in service and tidying things up) doesn't matter for the very same reason. The playerbase doesn't like it.

A playerbase which catering to is the whole entire Raison D'être - reason of existence - of this site. A playerbase that, if neglected, will not grow.

It's also why I find it hard to vote for Changes to Neko Law because though it would eliminate this specific problem, I don't know what's more fun in the setting. Having the Neko still made for and be slaves for war, or to have them be free. Warmachines? It's just like why Terminator 2 and Robocop were good - the struggle to rise out of being a machine and become human. Freedom and Humanity? Now it suddenly becomes a free for all. See how player enjoyment factors in?

It permeates everything, and neglecting this has demonstrated again and again to be a road to ruin.

So do everything possible to avoid impacting the players with this and roll the order back as far as possible.
 
Well, with Hanako's bombshell and Kotori's motion... if that's followed through, it kind of puts the struggle for nekovalkyrja being a species midway and leaves players to still explore that theme, while following Yui's argument that "it's not so simple as that".

It's not the victory I was aiming for, but it's a situation I can live with. The nekos that want acknowledgment as a species are still there, while people harping that they're just weapons haven't been entirely proven wrong either.
 
I think I will remove NH-22 and Geshrin from the order via retcon. How's that sound?
 
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