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[Nepleslia] New Rifle

CadetNewb

Well-Known Member
One of the things that I may be able to make right now is a new service rifle for Nepleslia - not a PA one, but a rifle for people out of their heavy armor. The maker can vary from NAM to Styrling or more, so whom it will come from won't be a worry. I admit though, I'd like to have it come from Styrling, since they could use some loving right now. It's a classic company in the setting, but hasn't had much in recent times due to IRL.

Right now, the concern is if it should have the standard magazine layout like an M4, a Bullpup layout with the mag in the stock, or an even more advanced bullpup layout like the P90. And on top of that? If it should be gauss, gunpowder, or hybrid.
 
The M2 looks like it's our standard issue - we got the Showstopper too, but that's for the 4th Fleet only right now. I'll see if Moonman's ok with moving that into more general issue with elite troops. There's also the XAR too, but overall, the equipment list is cluttered right now.
 
The M2 was rather haphazardly adopted as the new infantry service rifle - despite it being designed for the IPG-only. It comes with a ton of crazy tacticool stuff that your average infantry man will not use.

If anything, this should be a gauss or some sort of electronically fired rifle to make everything else obsolete. Bullpup would be preferred, with a top-loading magazine of some sort. It's not as great as the standard format like the M4, but it's less-stupid than an AUG or a FS2000 with the magazine near your armpit.

It should be -capable- of taking accessories but overall it needs to fit with the image Nepleslia wants to project, really.
 
If you are going pure gauss, it doesnt matter where you put your magazine doesnt it, since it wouldnt cook off.

(Other than ergonomics)
 
There's a lot of issues stemming from the M2 itself - it was meant to be a very advanced rifle for a very advanced group - the IPG.

Furthermore, a retrofit of a rifle to a new cartridge is not some trivial matter. There's the issue of armories needing to be restocked with the new parts that need new tooling to be made. There's the issue of an entire military force needing to be re-trained in the use of a different cartridge in the middle of a war.

Just imagine if the US military adopted the SCAR-16 but decided that because it was so capable in the hands of Specops groups, it should be capable in the hands of general infantry that fit a different purpose - and lets also further complicate the matter by retraining an entire military force to accept the new little tendencies of the new round.

Also, chemically propelled rounds are getting old and its time for Nepleslia to take advantage of the advanced setting in SARP and use higher technology. Go for gauss.
 
Gauss sounds really cool, although I think if it was gas-operated gun with gauss adapter it would feeld a tad-bit more nepleslian.

Thing about Gauss... I do not see that as a ruggedy, trusty rifle. Gass is ussualy pretty delicate piece of device. The thing is nepleslian marines are dumb arseholes and delicate things are not good in their hands. Not to mention you need to have a rifle you can use to beat someone's skull in.

As for mag, I am in favor of having standard mag as is in M4, G3 or AK and whatever. Simply because it is simple and well working. For standard rifle you do not need some compact bullshit really. Most of the time your guys will stand on guard duty or in pillbox anyway and we have ships big enoughs that you do not need tiny piddley guns to move around properly in them.

Not to mention you could strap a box-magazine and longer barrel on your rifle and BAM suddenly you have squad support weapon. That in my opnion would be a good thing. If you would have top-loading bull-pup you can say good-bye to box-magazines and what not.
 
ShotJon said:
Gauss sounds really cool, although I think if it was gas-operated gun with gauss adapter it would feeld a tad-bit more nepleslian.

Thing about Gauss... I do not see that as a ruggedy, trusty rifle. Gass is ussualy pretty delicate piece of device. The thing is nepleslian marines are dumb arseholes and delicate things are not good in their hands. Not to mention you need to have a rifle you can use to beat someone's skull in.

As for mag, I am in favor of having standard mag as is in M4, G3 or AK and whatever. Simply because it is simple and well working. For standard rifle you do not need some compact bullshit really. Most of the time your guys will stand on guard duty or in pillbox anyway and we have ships big enoughs that you do not need tiny piddley guns to move around properly in them.

Not to mention you could strap a box-magazine and longer barrel on your rifle and BAM suddenly you have squad support weapon. That in my opnion would be a good thing. If you would have top-loading bull-pup you can say good-bye to box-magazines and what not.

I've always frowned on the concept of hybrids, the moment you try and do that you add more complication to what is essentially a simple design (that being a regular nitrocellulose propelled projectile) and what you get is a heavy product with a lot of things that may go wrong for not much improvement. So overall mixing the two concepts isn't the best idea for what your after.

As far as gauss being delicate I believe in the setting the technology that the weapon system revolves around has achieved capabilities and endurance on par with regular firearms. In the end a gauss weapon actually has some advantages over firearms aside from the obvious. One its practically a caseless weapon system, meaning the entire weapon cycle is sealed from outside contaminates that plague conventional rifles. Additionally gauss weapons may only need cleaning occasionally or never at all due to the lack of propellant outside of magnetic force. As far as melee... I'd imagine the casing can be made of a material other then polymer though the coils may retain enough weight to deliver lethal blows.

As far as the magazine goes... those are designed for conventional weapons and thus so is there layout. With a gauss platform we get to move onto caseless projectiles that have no brass to take up so much room. Thus the size of the magazine can be greatly increased and the area in which it feeds can be made more convenient to the user (streamlining the layout and removing the annoyance of a magazine that can get in the way). As far as what you call *compact bullshit* I think someone having to clear a house would rather have the more maneuverable Tavor over an AR-15 pattern weapon... same barrel length, same if not a little more accuracy and never make the assumption that the weapon will always be used in situations where it'd be most advantageous.... otherwise as a designer your no better then the whiz kids from the 60s.

As far as being able to modify the weapon into a squad support system by using something akin to the Beta-C drum magazine or one of the extended 45 round box magazines you run into the issue of both over complication and weight (especially with the beta mag) the best squad support weapon will always be a dedicated belt fed light machine gun style platform.. period.. keep the rifles rifles ok?
 
Why not just use the Zen AR-1? It's cheap, reliable, simple, and effective. And it's locally produced in Nepleslia.
 
Wes said:
Why not just use the Zen AR-1? It's cheap, reliable, simple, and effective. And it's locally produced in Nepleslia.

Because in the end its no better then the M2 in terms of functionality, firepower, and above all (in a setting with androids and super powered catgirls) no better in stopping power. We can do better with what we have then either rifle.
 
Speaking as a guy who's used gunpowder guns against Androids and Super Powered Catgirls. It works, and it works well. Gauss, Laser, Plasma, etc etc all sound fancy and cool. But they're also expensive and require more expensive parts to maintain and can be 'delicate' even if you say they're rugged that lasing lense can and will scratch, pit, or shatter.

So what's cheaper. Neodymium-doped lenses for lasers, magnetic containment and acceleration mechanisms for plasma (Including gas canisters for the plasma!), electromagnetic coils, capacitors or a short-stroke piston rifle with a 125 grain bullet? :p

Neko are made of flesh and blood as well. You shoot them, they're just as vulnerable to standard ballistics. Same goes for ID-SOL, Fyunnen, and so on. Androids of the day typically only have thin metal sheeting which can be penetrated easily as well.
 
Soresu said:
Speaking as a guy who's used gunpowder guns against Androids and Super Powered Catgirls. It works, and it works well. Gauss, Laser, Plasma, etc etc all sound fancy and cool. But they're also expensive and require more expensive parts to maintain and can be 'delicate' even if you say they're rugged that lasing lense can and will scratch, pit, or shatter.

So what's cheaper. Neodymium-doped lenses for lasers, magnetic containment and acceleration mechanisms for plasma (Including gas canisters for the plasma!), electromagnetic coils, capacitors or a short-stroke piston rifle with a 125 grain bullet? :p

Neko are made of flesh and blood as well. You shoot them, they're just as vulnerable to standard ballistics. Same goes for ID-SOL, Fyunnen, and so on. Androids of the day typically only have thin metal sheeting which can be penetrated easily as well.

Considering the technology of the setting (hell the technology just to get Neplelsia's HPAR to work XD) at this point all three are probably just as reliable as an AK-47 and around the same price if there infantry grade. Now I won't argue simplicity, nothing will beat out conventional weapons for that, but at the same time that has draw backs. Ammunition being the main one, having the clean and maintain it all the same, the weight of the cartridges. All of the systems you've listed have there ups and downs, I'm championing gauss because I consider the best trade off.

As far as initial price goes.. yes a conventional rifle wins... but what about the cost of ammunition over it's lifespan? Gauss rounds would be cheaper since there just a chunk of ferrous metal. Lasers, if the lenses could be made decent enough and for the right price (and considering the settings tech and economics I'd imagine they very well could be). And plasma... well is plasma XD (containing an explosion and then firing it at the enemy XD).

And again, sure it works... but it could be better.
 
Plasma is super-heated ionized gas and is considered the forth state of matter. To put it simply. It is a gas that is very hot. Not any gas will do. Specific types are used. That alone is an expense which would work in the conventional firearm's favor. This is not including the price for heat-resistant ceramics, metals, containment units, power sources and ignition sources. Plus. Plasma cools very very quickly unless continuously heated.

Lasers are however more expensive to produce than conventional arms. No technology can say they aren't. And by now I've likely stepped on some egos by saying that. The material and production cost of lasing lenses is expensive. Not only do you need to make the lense, but the material something like neodymium glass has to be manufactured in a more complex process than mixing gunpowder. Then you have to give the weapon guts (Chips and Wires) a battery capable of having it fire in the kilo-megawatt range, along with some other doodads.

Gauss Weapons are more controversial however. While they do fire pellets, slugs, or even balls of ferrous material they require two things. Material and power. Material to fire. Power to propel said material to fire. This means complex batteries. And different materials to fire out of said weapon. Iron, Steel, Tungsten, Lead-Doped with Ferromaterial.

For the cost of a chunk of Tungsten to fire out of a Gauss Gun which would have to be smelted and treated, you could probably produce five to ten bullets as they only require Copper, Brass, and Gunpowder. Gunpowder is ridiculously easy to make. Copper is quite common (On Earth once upon a time. Now we consume it like a fatkid does cake.), and brass is very simplistic.

But there is more to Gauss than just those two things. You also have to take into account electromagnetic coils. Which are a further expenditure. Cooling mechanisms to ensure they don't melt. Electronics to regulate power flow, and the other gadgetry that may or may not be included. And worse of all, it can still suffer from EMP exposure rendering it useless.

Conventional Firearms, while 'Old' 'Primitive' have been by far some of the most prevalent weapons in the setting. They are cheaper than all three. Can do the same job, ammunition is easier to come across, and are easier to maintain.

Any Nep vet, Kampfer, Koku, MoonMan, Tom, Fian are welcome to prove me wrong here. But this is how I view Nepleslia's firearms markets and such. Heavier Weapons like you find on PA's utilize Plasma, Anti-Matter, or HPARs. Because they're necessary to compete with other military-grade Powered Armors or Armored Vehicles.

Conventional Firearms are used because they're both widespread, and work just as well. You don't need a laser or plasma gun to kill a dude when a 9mm Parabellum to the heart or head works just as well.

Including my above mentions of the differences and prevalence in the firearm type and ammo, Nepleslians also just seem to enjoy the sound of good'ol fashioned guns firing along with the smell of gunsmoke.
 
I still root for hybrids. Yeah sure the mass driver addition to it makes it another thing to break... so what? If it breaks you can still shoot your regular bullet. Also I am personally in favour of rails rather then coils. They are a bit simpler.

But yeah I am on this with Soresu. Regular rifle cannot go wrong. And bull pup just simply is not nepleslian in my opinion.

As for rifle turned into squad support weapons Arieg... you say that it would make the rifle heavy.... so like.... machineguns are not heavy?
 
Is a new Nepleslian service rifle even required?
I find myself having to repeat Fian's question.

The M2 hasn't even seen Role Play use by non-IPG troops so I fail to see where the evidence is to suggest that it is the wrong weapon for standard issue. The M4 started off as a special ops weapon. Now its being used all over the services and by civilians (as the CAR 15). I have a mission lined up to showcase the light infantry stuff that Nepleslia has and I come back to find this. It's a bit... disheartening.

I am also rather taken aback by the whole "this rifle was designed for the IPG and is supremely difficult to master. so give me a plasma or gauss rifle." So a gunpowder rifle is too much for line infantry but plasma and gauss are totally easy for them? In Nepleslia, where gunpowder weapons are annual gifts, they find energy weapons easier to learn and use?

I should also state, for the record, that I had proposed a new rifle to MoonMan when I started the slow process of standardizing munitions. He said to just retrofit one of our current ones instead since it was easier. I doubt his answer will have changed in the year since the rifle was introduced. The M2 fit the bill best so I'm rather unhappy that one year afterwards I'm getting flak for it, instead of during the process.

One issue with Zen arms, which I might have discussed with Soresu in the past, is that since we are trying to standardize munitions, Zen would need to conform its firearms to NAM/SMDION standards. Not a problem in the pistol, SMG or shotgun calibers but difficult in the rifle caliber. The AR1 uses 7.5mm while we have moved to the 6.8mm.

In fact, any new rifle proposed for the SMDION will have to be the 6.8mm caliber.
 
I don't mean to be a downer guys, but it appears I won't be able to procure a new rifle at all. Though an article will be easy, artwork - not so much. On the bright side, I'm sure any ideas, concerns and so forth in regards to a new rifle will be safe here for future use, so if anyone hasn't posted yet, please do so for the future.

And again, I'm sorry everyone - I feel I got your hopes up for nothing.
 
ShotJon said:
I should also state, for the record, that I had proposed a new rifle to MoonMan when I started the slow process of standardizing munitions. He said to just retrofit one of our current ones instead since it was easier. I doubt his answer will have changed in the year since the rifle was introduced. The M2 fit the bill best so I'm rather unhappy that one year afterwards I'm getting flak for it, instead of during the process.

I am still of the opinion that we have a lot of weapons that do not see any use, and as far as I'm concerned, we should try our best to use the articles we already have approved before we start adding new ones that fill the same role.

I don't want to stymie creativity, but these unused articles are there to use, and unless Wes lets us just erase them from existence to replace with new ones, it only serves to needlessly clutter the wiki.
 
I don't think having a 6.8 variant of the AR-1 would be a problem at all, if that's what you'd like. Give the word and Zen can start making them by the millions in your preferred color scheme.
 
Wes said:
I don't think having a 6.8 variant of the AR-1 would be a problem at all, if that's what you'd like. Give the word and Zen can start making them by the millions in your preferred color scheme.

I've already discussed this with Sigma, Wes.
 
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