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Please correct the Ke-M6 Daisy article

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raz

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This thread brought attention to the Daisy power armor's weird dimensions and its apparent hugeness.

We're expected to believe that this is what goes on inside a Daisy when the user is short:

ai.imgur.com_Tj24yQp.png

At 5'2", this character's body should be even smaller compared to the 6'8" armor around it, tbh, but I tried to match the "body" with his head. Wearers just point their feet down within the legs and float inside? The hands aren't gauntlets and you connect via SPINE, or something? (Which seems counter-intuitive to it being, in part, created as the main armor for non-Neko)

Other KFY armors have been revisited because weird things were overlooked during creation 10 years ago. Why not revise the Daisy to match roleplay and existing art?
 
Past the creation of the M6 Daisy power armor, the armor did not have artwork.

The inception of this power armor was the culmination of a development process including the M4 Sylph and the M5 Harpy before concluding with the M6 Daisy. The Daisy was a power armor intended to bridge the 'knight saber hardsuit' style KFY LAMIA armors went for, and the larger NDI designs (whom are the precursors for the Terratech-line of NAM power armor); the M6 Daisy itself ended up being more like Samus Aran's 'Gravity Suit' in 'Metroid'.

The Daisy Power Armor's article deliberatingly states that it has some ability to scale itself, along with being able to compensate with users of a smaller size using adjustements from the hemosynthetic insert. The default piece of artwork likely depicts a user of ideal size. This picture with Rolf is misleading because Rolf's unit of choice is an MCAS with Daisy-inspired pieces on it, and Rolf himself is someone whom had a unit custom built to his size in preparation for the final Miharu mission (the MCAS Shikamaru). Were he really in a Daisy, the lower leg portion of the Daisy would be large enough to accomodate the whole foot in length, the upper leg piece would be adjusted to account for where the humanoid wearer's knee would bend. The same adjustments would be done for the elbow and yes, the hand would come short of the wrist. Control of the gauntlet would still be possible through the assisted strength it provides and the dexterity lent by the helmet's man-machine interface. The Daisy could adjust significantly to accomodate wearer size, but that required fitting in a ship's armor bay before an 'outlier' case would have been ready to go.

In effect, Rolf is an extreme example of how the Daisy would adapt to service a small user. Rolf made a deliberate choice during the Miharu plot to resize himself to 5'2" so he could fit in the Mindy to later find out he still neither had SPINE or SLICS, and a growing concern that the Daisy would 'wedgie' him. Later adjustments on the M6 from Doshii Jun worked on actually increase the Daisy's capacity to deal with extreme (perhaps to help Rolf too, given Doshii Jun was in the same plot... though I suspect the concern was aired by Nekos wanting to use it too beforehand). Again a demonstration that the Daisy being an helmet taller was fully intentional.

I don't believe this is wrong. I believe this is different. That's what the Daisy was supposed to be.

However, after the Battle of Yamatai, Ketsurui Fleet Yards and Origin Industries have fielded the Daisy II. The M6-2 is significantly streamlined lighter and smaller, much more in scale with a nekovalkyrja rather than a human. In effect, if Star Army designers felt the Daisy stretched the logistics inside ships tailored mainly to support the Mindy (since Yamatai has preference for light armors, and the Daisy was taller), the Daisy II fulfill the goal of standardizing the M6 series.

I therefore submit that the Daisy M6-1's article's text is not in error. Some people simply did not account for the difference (and I don't think that's the article's fault). Rolf's custom armor Shikamaru should probably not be on it, though. If correction was needed, it has already been accomplished in the Daisy II.
 
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Okay, so the art on the Daisy page apparently isn't of a Daisy. Even so, the point kind of still stands.

Imagine an average 5'3" Neko in a standard Daisy. Same problem. Weird. Nobody has depicted it being that massive compared to a standard Neko, who are the main users of the armor. It was created to accommodate bigger soldiers, but that doesn't mean Neko aren't the primary people wearing it.

Furthermore, Daisy armors are treated as the same size as Mindy armors for the storage economy on virtually all Star Army ship designs. So in addition to actual users ignoring how massive the Daisy is in roleplay, so have tech writers.

Additionally, mentioning the Daisy II isn't totally worthwhile. The YSS Eucharis, for example, doesn't even keep it in inventory and still links to the Daisy 1A instead (and that page is kept up to date). Your own DRv3 lists the Daisy 1A instead of the Daisy 2. If a "correction" has been accomplished by the Daisy 2, why is the 1A still more prevalent in RP after almost 5 IC years? If the D2 had actually replaced the 1A then it wouldn't even be on the DR reference as a standard going forward.

I just think the Daisy has never been shown in RP to be as big as its article says it is. So why not line it up with the rest of the setting's interpretation?
 
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There is a perfect example of 'over sized' power armor and that would be Terran Marine armor in starcraft and it shows you how it can work too. Also being 6'8 isn't that huge, people still can grow that size, it's large, but if it's still proportioned like a human then it likely wouldn't need any special rigging other than simply being higher up. Its also worth mentioning that you're kind of going backwards. You're using RP and pictures to determine the characteristics of something, but in reality if they're different from the page that means they misinterpreted the item.

Here's the Marine armor.

Edit: Also the Daisy II probably isn't listed because it's smaller so thus a different size and doesn't need to be listed cause there's already an example for that size.

Edit2: Also the M! Demon is on the reference guide, armor doesn't have to be 'relevant' to be on the guide.
 
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If I mentioned the Daisy II on the DRv3 page, it'd be a light power armor. The Daisy is mentioned as medium armor because it'd the one that came to my mind when I did the example list. When I double-checked with the size guidelines Cadetnewb encouraged me to make to make sizing less ambiguous, it happened to support the difference.

I still use the original Daisy because it's the equipment the Miharus still have, and I've never been wholly onboard with the changes made to the Daisy II. That doesn't change that it exists, abd bears the corrections Raz and Wes expressed were needed/prefered. If they want it, why not adapt the articles to make it the mainstream unit? I'm not the one stopping that from happening and letting the original Daisy fade into obscurity.

And Raz, you keep saying 'nobody'. I'm still here. Doshii is too. Tom and Nyton, the guys that roleplay in my plot and have been around about as long as you have, have both been enjoying the greater size of the Daisy too. Your absolute doesn't stick to evidence.
 
Its also worth mentioning that you're kind of going backwards. You're using RP and pictures to determine the characteristics of something, but in reality if they're different from the page that means they misinterpreted the item.
That is not worth mentioning because, frankly, RP interpretation and the commonly-accepted vision is more important than details that slipped through the logic filter 10 years ago.
 
That is not worth mentioning because, frankly, RP interpretation and the commonly-accepted vision is more important than details that slipped through the logic filter 10 years ago.
No that's not exactly true. RP interpretation is a reason something -could- be changed. But RP interpretation does not override actual intention when it comes to rewriting the article itself, especially when the 'problem' you bring up has already been solved.
 
No that's not exactly true. RP interpretation is a reason something -could- be changed. But RP interpretation does not override actual intention when it comes to rewriting the article itself, especially when the 'problem' you bring up has already been solved.
I mean, you can say that, but it hasn't been solved at all. Moreover, according to what Fred says, the FM didn't even think the Daisy should be as big as it apparently is.

We fix tech all the time. What's the opposition to fixing this?
 
I mean, you can say that, but it hasn't been solved at all. Moreover, according to what Fred says, the FM didn't even think the Daisy should be as big as it apparently is.

We fix tech all the time. What's the opposition to fixing this?
The Daisy 2 exist. It's already smaller. So yes, the 'problem' is fixed. There is a smaller daisy that works for smaller people. But just like the Mindy, if we don't have a bigger armor around people will be forced to use MCAS. So why alter the Daisy1's article when it can be used to support larger character that do not want to go through the hassle of designing a MCAS.
 
I've already gone over and addressed the Daisy 2's existence. If you have nothing new to contribute, please don't muddle the discussion with repetition.
 
You've 'addressed' it by saying "it should be on the damage guide" but that literally has nothing to do with what you brought up. Unless what you're really getting at is you don't want the Daisy in a armor class higher than the Mindy. Because that's really the only reason to go back and change the Daisy 1's article. You can just say any RP that treated the Daisy as the same size as the Mindy during or after YE34 was actually using a Daisy2. The Daisy1 is even discontinued as it says on it's page. And technically has been since YE34, so most(not all) ships actually had Daisy 2 likely instead of 1, the GMs just didn't notice.

The one being repetitive is you, you want something to change, but you can't actually give any reason for it to change beyond what has already been covered and judged as not a valid reason. Saying "It's broken" and "Fix it" over and over is not going to suddenly make those reasons valid.
 
You've 'addressed' it by saying "it should be on the damage guide"
No, I've addressed it by saying that the Daisy 2 generally hasn't been adopted by the wider Star Army. It's probably due to the fact it was introduced during the time when Yamatai and Origin had "burned bridges," and was never picked up on a widespread basis after the relationship was mended. And I don't think using the YSS Eucharis inventory page as an example is picking some GM who "just didn't notice."

But, again, the Daisy 2 has been addressed earlier in the thread toward Fred's statements. So please refrain from starting arguments about stuff that's already been covered. Thanks.
 
No, I've addressed it by saying that the Daisy 2 generally hasn't been adopted by the wider Star Army. It's probably due to the fact it was introduced during the time when Yamatai and Origin had "burned bridges," and was never picked up on a widespread basis after the relationship was mended. And I don't think using the YSS Eucharis inventory page as an example is picking some GM who "just didn't notice."

But, again, the Daisy 2 has been addressed earlier in the thread toward Fred's statements. So please refrain from starting arguments about stuff that's already been covered. Thanks.
Then there is nothing to address, Daisy2 is what you use for small people, Daisy1 is big and bulky, and totally possible if you looked at the video I posted it shows exactly how it can be done. As the Daisy1 is discontinued there is zero reason to modify the article. Also 'non-relevant' PA can be used as examples, as the M1 Demon is on the list and that's from YE26. Also there is no need to act like it's "too big to be PA' because Nam has much bigger PAs so it's not as if there's some limitation keeping it from being that large as well. Also the Daisy1 wasn't 'accidentally' oversized or anything like that it was -intended- to be that large from the get go, so it's not as if it 'slipped by' It was approved as how it was intended. Plenty of people forget that the Aggressor is like 11 feet tall, when RPing, but no one goes back and changes the article for it, because that's the players mistake not a mistake in the article.
 
Daisy2 is what you use for small people, Daisy1 is big and bulky
Untrue. The Daisy 2 is an infrequently used offshoot that can fit individuals just as big as the Daisy 1A, which is still the Star Army Rikugun's main planetary combat power armor.

A Star Army Century is literally equipped with the 1A, not the Daisy 2. This is not an oversight, it is the FM's choice.
As the Daisy1 is discontinued there is zero reason to modify the article
Untrue. The M6-1B and M6-1C are discontinued. The M6-1A remains in production.

Again, for the third time, please refrain from posting argumentative stuff, Syaoran. Having to reply and refute falsehoods only muddles the conversation.
 
So you're going to point out 1 line and say "Oh this is false, stop posting falsehoods" and ignore the rest. I misread the B and C being discontinued and thought it included the A. Okay so Daisy1 A is not discontinued. But that would simply be because the falling out you mentioned before. That still doesn't warrant a 'problem' but rather a choice. Now you you want things to be clean and 'not muddled' how about you stop being evasive and actually answer the rest of above claims. Because As it is there is still no reason to modify the Daisy1's article other than the simple fact that you don't like it. If you can't actually answer those claims and continue to nitpick you're being no better than you claim that I'm being and are just being hypocritical. Either take the conversation forward by replying, or don't reply at all and wait for someone else to tell you the same thing, since both me and Fred telling you isn't enough for you.
 
Not sure who you think you are, Syaoran. Please stop replying to this thread, as you obviously have nothing new or worthwhile to actually contribute, and seem only to want to troll.
 
@Syaoran I suggest you leave this be; this has devolved in you making a post and Raz just refuting it. I think your point (and mine) were made so might as well not waste further time on this.

The person I'm interested in hearing about here is @Doshii Jun
The only two people that refute the Daisy's size are Raz and Wes, on account of 'I didn't imagine it this way' (well, so far). Regardless of my argument, this remains a good point, as a similar discussion was made about the LASR. But in the LASR's case, I had the author's agreement.

I'm interested in seeing what he will think of this and what he means for his creation to be seen has. Regardless of any argument anyone else could raise, it's his submission and his point of view and how he wants the M6 Daisy to be remembered as is paramount. And I don't think anything else other than Doshii's word on this will settle this topic anyhow. If our mental picture must be corrected, so be it, but that concilliation must go both ways.
 
Yeah, I'm waiting to hear what Doshii has to say considering the evidence. Wes's input is probably the most important, though, because it's his faction and the faction is his vision.

Though, Fred, I'd genuinely like to see an instance where the Daisy's size was described as being massive in RP or being difficult to maneuver in tight spaces. Having read Miharu, which you've cited, I don't recall it ever happening there, nor can I find such an instance after searching for a bit just now. As I mentioned earlier, other plots have featured the Daisy 1A, too (at least 3 plots), and those assumed the Daisy was similar in size to a Mindy.
 
Raz, I'm going to handwave the matter away and go for 'just assume I didn't find any'. I'm positive it was the picture in my head, but then again, I never thought people would think it was actually smaller so if I reflected on it, it's likely subtle circumstancial stuff like, say, a Mindy wrestling with a Daisy and I might have used 'larger' as a term somewhere. And even if I did, would it really make a difference in this topic? Probably not, right?

So, yeah, I'll defer to Doshii and take it from him.
 
I'm on mobile, trying not to think of my grandfather's funeral tomorrow while I watch my son say more words than ever and his great-grandmother enjoy his presence in her less drifty moments.

Forgive me my brevity.

The Daisy is a flexible armor that varies in size. If you take two pilots of the same size, one in a Daisy and one in a Mindy, the Daisy is certainly taller by several inches. A helmet taller? Often, but not in each and every instance.

Rolf's art was not quite to scale, but it showed the important parts so well. The original Daisy art worked best.

I designed the Daisy to fight Nep armors on ground, and it does with gusto -- size and durability included. I also designed it to be able to punch a damn crater in a Mindy. The Mindy is a zippy light spacy armor in the spirit of the Lamia from which it came. Faster, better armored, higher tech, yadda yadda. Still a spacy armor.

In a "punch-out," the Daisy wins because it's a kickboxing, MMA-made powerhouse that's got a 12-1 record, while the Mindy is Jean Claude Van Dam in his own movies.

Daisy is Tier 5. Mindy II is Tier 4. This does not make one more or less lethal than the other.

Good day, folks.
 
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