Please correct the Ke-M6 Daisy article

[raz]

No worries about posting from a phone, dude! Take your time with real life and don't concern yourself with needing to reply too quickly here. Don't even think about Star Army. We got forever!

Your comments are cool, but seem more appropriate for the DR discussion. This thread is more about whether we can make the Daisy physically smaller, because it has no reason to be 6'8" tall when worn by the average 5'3" Neko. The tallness doesn't need to impact where it is on the DR scale.

Plus, it doesn't matter that the picture is Rolf because he's only an inch shorter than the average Neko. Just an example, which could easily be an elf-eared Cat Valkyrie. It seems like a technologically weird oversight that the hemosynthetic core compensates that much for the armor's standard, diminutive user (at creation, 33As exist now).

I designed the Daisy to fight Nep armors on ground, and it does with gusto -- size and durability included. I also designed it to be able to punch a damn crater in a Mindy.

This doesn't really line up with the Daisy's article itself, which states:

The M6 Daisy is as agile as a Nekovalkyrja, far more agile than any human. Sharing the abilities of the Nekovalkyrja in order to maximize the ease of use, the Daisy has extremely flexible joints and nearly as much physical strength as the M2 Mindy (which is still quite a bit).

The Daisy is, in fact, less physically powerful than a Mindy (which I'm keenly aware of, having played a Geshrin who uses the Daisy for years). Moreover, it has identical SP to the Mindy 2 but adds an arm mounted shield. They're literally as durable as each other (the Mindy might be more durable because it has a CFS). If the above quoted material from you is justification for why it needs to be 6'8" when worn by its smallest users, then that justification doesn't hold up and I don't understand why you're making the argument.

So, again, why does it need to remain so big for its smallest users when actual RP and tech submissions detailing PA storage have reflected it being roughly the same size as a Mindy vis-a-vis its wearer—perhaps erroneously—especially since the actual FM has apparently expressed desire for it to be toned down? I could find no RP to the contrary, nor could it be produced on request, so why not just slap the ol' revisio-ray on the article like we have with so many other things?

 

[Doshii Jun]

You cling to 6'8". I do not.

Also, I did not say the Daisy was stronger than the Mindy. I said it was tougher, as it is through its Yama-Dura armor and through its stated purpose. It's also a better "pounder" because I wanted it to be such and thusly made it so. Keep in mind its two predecessor armors, the Sylph and Harpy, each weaker in defensive potential.

It's tougher because it's meant to be tougher -- I don't recall how I handled v2 stats, if I did at all. I wouldn't put it on the same SP as the Durandium-clad Mindy II. But I wouldn't change the Mindy II to fix that, as I wouldn't be about inviting Wes' wrath over a pissing match about numbers.

I know that I never cared about the SP and never played the armor that way.

If all you are concerned about is 6'8" -- more fucking numbers, ugh -- then take your Daisy and do whatever the hell you want with it. Make it 4'10" for all I care. It is an armor of variable size that can easily get up to 6'8".

All I know is when I made it, I made it to take two pilots of the same size and have the Daisy be bigger, taller and more physically menacing. I wanted knuckle-bomber Priss in a sexy green to stand up to a Mishhu, look viably threatening, then to beat the snot out of it.

I wanted it to be what the Mindy wasn't, which was a light armor floating over the ground to avoid muddying its boots before cutting some fool to deli slices.

It doesn't need to be 6'8" for every single wearer to achieve that. But it always is bigger, taller and more physically present.

 

[raz]

If all you are concerned about is 6'8" -- more fucking numbers, ugh -- then take your Daisy and do whatever the hell you want with it.

That's what the article says the height is for a soldier inside who is 5'3" tall, and that didn't make sense. I have not been the one insisting the power armor must remain an unrevised minimum of 6'8" tall at any point, so it's not my obsession.

then take your Daisy and do whatever the hell you want with it. Make it 4'10" for all I care...

All I know is when I made it, I made it to take two pilots of the same size and have the Daisy be bigger, taller and more physically menacing.

Great on both counts! I agree that a ground combat armor should be more physically imposing than a space armor that's made to go super fast and stuff, definitely. The thing is, people were insisting that it needed to be that 6'8" minimum for any soldier who couldn't fill the space up, which hasn't been reflected in roleplay, and they wanted your—the creator's—input on the matter.

I'd suggest 71 inches instead of 82.6 as the height for a 5'3" standard issue Neko, which still makes it way taller than a Mindy inch-for-inch (and still taller than the shortest Daisy 2), but not disproportionately so nor unbelievably tall (right now, the hemosynth insert makes up a full foot and a half [!!!] of pure leg room for a 5'3" user and that's ridiculous, I think we can agree). Moving forward is up to you at this point, or maybe up to @Wes.

The rest is honestly moot. We don't need to go over how punching craters in a Mindy would require strength greater than a Mindy itself possesses

 

[Navian]

I think the answer to both the question in your first post and your question two posts ago, Raz, is 'because a consensus hasn't been reached'. Fred gave that answer before this thread was made, too; it looks like this thread is an attempt to rush through a change before a consensus can be reached by presenting it as if there is one already that's being just held up.

 

[raz]

It isn't a change that needs "consensus." It's a correction to bring the suit's size into line with what has been roleplayed, what accommodations Star Army ships and facilities have canonically made for the Daisy (they're identical to the Mindy), and the FM's thought that the Daisy shouldn't be significantly taller than the Mindy.

Doshii has said what he said in response to the inquiry regarding the suit's size, and that's what we were waiting on. No need to nitpick the now answered question.

 

[Navian]

If it was a rhetorical question, why did it need to be answered? If it was not a rhetorical question, why ask it repeatedly and then brush the answer aside when it appears? It may be desirable to alter the suit's description, to alter how it's used in roleplay, to brush it under the rug with a more recent model, or any other possible solution. Not only are you pushing hard for your chosen solution as if nothing else is worth considering, you're pushing to have it done in a particular way, according to your own interpretation and preference. I don't think this is appropriate.

 

[raz]

It's a correction to bring the suit's size into line with what has been roleplayed

The suit hasn't been depicted as being as massive as the article says it is. This is not my interpretation, and examples of RP that refute it cannot be provided upon request, nor could I find them during my extensive research.

what accommodations Star Army ships and facilities have canonically made for the Daisy (they're identical to the Mindy)

Show me where Star Army ships or facilities have provided extra room for the Daisy. Everything on the wiki treats them as roughly the same size. Wiki articles generally say something to the effect of "10 Mindy or Daisy power armors." Again, not my interpretation, though I did go and do research to make sure it was correct before I stated it.

the FM's thought that the Daisy shouldn't be significantly taller than the Mindy.

Not. My. Interpretation.

None of it is simply my "own interpretation" that I'm trying to force on the site. All I'm striving for here is in-universe consistency, which is my only "preference."

I did make a suggestion to the Daisy's creator as to how the article might be updated to bring it in line with IC depictions and other canonical materials. But I further stated it's not up to me what happens going forward.

Don't see how I'm being inappropriate.

 

[Navian]

Unfortunately, there's a lot of things in the RP that are inconsistent with the setting as depicted in the wiki, or as envisioned by its creators. If every time such a conflict occurred we favoured what was in the RP, the setting would drift toward everything being as the average player assumed it is, losing a great deal of its unique flavor and detail. So 'what is in the RP' should not be the absolute determinant of what gets put on the wiki.

Sometimes it's better to draw the line and favour what's written as hard canon, even if it's been ignored for years. Sometimes that doesn't work, because the creators didn't notice what's written in hard canon and wouldn't have accepted it if they did, so the wiki needs to be changed, too. We can't always depend on what the creators think, either, because not everyone has the same ideas of how things work in their head, and they can't always be reconciled with canon, even when the ideas belong to the original author.

In other words, there is not just one way to resolve these conflicts and they should be decided on a case-by-case basis.

I'm not particularly for or against revising the Daisy to be more similar in size to the Mindy, nor do I have an opinion on whether or not both types of armour should use the same armour racks. (Apparently, these racks can accommodate a 5'3" Mindy right along with 6'8" ones, so what does that even mean, anyway?)

What I'm in favour of is letting everyone with an interest in the Daisy share their opinions and think about what they want before a decision is made, and what I'm against is letting anybody fast-talk their way to getting what they want before anyone else can object, while they're objecting, and after they've objected, when what they want isn't genuinely a pressing need that must be handled right now for everyone's sake.

 

[raz]

isn't genuinely a pressing need that must be handled right now

Nobody said it needed to be handled right now. I literally said Doshii could take his time with a reply, indicating that I don't believe it needs to be handled with any real immediacy. You don't gotta come up in here and be all rude and make combative assumptions.

 

[Navian]

If you'd left out the third of those three sentences, I'd be ready to believe that you weren't still urgently fast-talking, but I still wouldn't believe that this wasn't your tone, earlier. 'Rude and combative' came in at the start of this 'tangent', here, long before I said anything.

Besides, the post where you told him he could take his time, still concluded with this paragraph:

So, again, why does it need to remain so big for its smallest users when actual RP and tech submissions detailing PA storage have reflected it being roughly the same size as a Mindy vis-a-vis its wearer—perhaps erroneously—especially since the actual FM has apparently expressed desire for it to be toned down? I could find no RP to the contrary, nor could it be produced on request, so why not just slap the ol' revisio-ray on the article like we have with so many other things?

...so my point still stands.

 

[Syaoran]

Well Doshii has said their peace, and it was "It always needs to be bigger and more menacing" And that's what it is right now. So there is no need to change it. Even if it's not huge when someone short wears it (And 5'3" is pretty short, since medically dwarfism is 4'10" for adults.) When someone of 'average height' wears it, it's likely going to have trouble getting through a door. And before anyone goes and says Doshii was okay with some being smaller so we should change it. No where did Doshii mention that the article should be changed, so they're satisfied with where it is, so let's keep it there.

 

[Fred]

Navian does have a point that the discussion is one-sided. This is being carried out as if only one eventual outcome can be fueled by the discussion. That the Daisy will see itself adjusted to match your vision, despite being three viable takes on it.

What is the second? If Doshii did mean for the unit to be taller, how can the article be altered to ring true to that if it hasn't before?

What's the third? Status Quo. You still get what you want with the Daisy II; just encourage its wider use in the setting. The Wiki can be edited to reflect that, after all.

 

[Syaoran]

I think whatever is decided though, it should be between Wes and Doshii, in private. I don't think it'll make enough impact to really warrant anyone else getting involved. After all in relation to the players, things will either stay the same, or be modified so that misconceptions in the past line up with now. Either way the players don't have to do anything, and the only 'stat' listed that will be changed is it's place on a list of examples. This is mostly an issue about vision and desire, and some people are trying to push their own vision in on this.

 

[raz]

This is being carried out as if only one eventual outcome can be fueled by the discussion. That the Daisy will see itself adjusted to match your vision, despite being three viable takes on it.

Already addressed this false assertion here. The facts lead to one conclusion, and even then, we waited for Doshii who said:

If all you are concerned about is 6'8" ... then take your Daisy and do whatever the hell you want with it. Make it 4'10" for all I care. It is an armor of variable size that can easily get up to 6'8".

There is no logical or RP based reason not to correct the Daisy article now that we have permission from the article writer. Unless you can come up with evidence after doing research, as I have. Additionally, only Wes's "vision" of his faction is particularly important—the rest of us frankly have second-rate interpretations—so why keep forcing something he doesn't like? Let's find a way forward

 

[Syaoran]

Already addressed this false assertion here. The facts lead to one conclusion, and even then, we waited for Doshii who said:

There is no logical or RP based reason not to correct the Daisy article now that we have permission from the article writer. Unless you can come up with evidence after doing research, as I have. Additionally, only Wes's "vision" of his faction is particularly important—the rest of us frankly have second-rate interpretations—so why keep forcing something he doesn't like? Let's find a way forward

No you are twisting words. Doshii did not give you permission to change the article. They said change -your- Daisy. And it's clearly worded like that. No where does it say anything about changing the article.

I would suggest locking this thread at this point, cause it's obvious Raz is just going to manipulate anything said now.

 

[raz]

Honestly, Syaoran, you're the only one being manipulative. I've already asked you to leave, since you're just trolling, but please refrain from being super rude and making things up in the future.

Go away.

 

[Syaoran]

Raz, not a single person has come to this topic and agreed with you. You literally ignore what everyone says, and you're calling people rude and trolls. But you got your answer long ago and yet you still push, because it's not what you like. I was quiet to prove my point, that you'd be told the same thing. And you were. Or are you going to call me a liar for saying "No where does Doshii's post say change the old article"?

Well it doesn't really matter cause you're saying I'm making things up now. At this point you have me wondering a few things about you, are you really not getting this or are you just being obtuse thinking you'll get your way? Either way it's not becoming and you should try to conduct yourself with more refinement. You said your peace a long while ago. If Doshii wanted the article changed they would either change it, or say "Hey Fred/Wes you can go change the article so that it's shorter."

If you think that Doshii did in fact agree with you than there is no need to talk about this anymore. When they get the chance they'll change it. SO just leave it be. Or should I take your continued attempts as realization that Doshii didn't clear a change and that you're trying to persuade people still?

 

[Navian]

Raz, why can't you relax and let other people make their own decisions instead of trying to apply pressure and reframe your request until you get what you want?

That one was a rhetorical question, though the only answer I've see to it is that you're concerned about consistency. Unfortunately, 'concern about consistency' can be used to justify almost anything.

I think your last post would apply more to you, but it's not helpful to say, either way.

 

[Legix]

This is stupid. Raz, go make Kudhacari PA rigs. This whole thread has honestly been a waste of everyone's time based on what I've read and seen. The rest of you, go post. Seriously, Doshii spoke and made it clear that it didn't matter because the armor is meant to be tough. It's big and tough. Stop caring. You have mass-produced super soldier cats and rifles that cut holes in tanks. This is far from an important matter, a 'fix' or anything like that.

This is an outdated piece of crud regardless of its size. Go fly a II.

Edit: seriously, don't make me have to be a voice of reason when this thread isn't producing anything after Doshii spoke and said "who cares?"

 

[Fred]

Did the people here that used the Report Post function think their use was justified?
It wasn't, and for some, this is a trend. Stop using it and give a little more credence to your fellow members - especially considering no one here actually was insulting or disrespectful.

I'm locking this thread. Rest assured, Staffers will conclude this quandary between closed door with a proper tone.