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Saluting in the Star Army
- Thread starter Wes
- Start date
Fred
Retired Staff
Well, I'll say this:
Kotori bows. She bows to show respect to her superior officers. As far as I'm concerned, it's what's been taught to her. If I'm suddenly told that she needs to salute in the military, after all this time having that mental picture ingrained in... I'm going to feel that Kotori saluting to Yui is out-of-character.
Wes, if you look back, if seems obvious to me that you're the only one in favor of this aside from Nashoba whom pretty much says something that's sums it up to "Why not do/allow both?". If what you want to do is not have to chew up every new player, then simply have the Star Army tolerate and allow the normal salutes, while leaving the prior bowing in as well.
Depending on which is the most used in the time that comes after, maybe the trend of plain salutes. You could justify the 'relaxed/varied' form of respects allowed on account of Yamatai integrating more cultures into its military - the Elysians, for example (a deep bow for an Elysian could be quite an adventure on a cramped ship).
The nekovalkyrja currently in the service of the NMX could salute as well since they don't have Yamatai's oriental background. If they're ever 'liberated' or switch sides, they won't be be used to bowing over saluting.
New players could have their new characters salute, older would keep bowing. The newer character from there could either keep saluting, or pick up on the other people bowing, understand why (Yamatai's oriental theme) and ape it as well. But with this, new players would no longer be in the wrong, and require superior officers to police them for the wrong form of respect given.
Himiko has been changing various policies to make Yamatai more open, more fair. Allowing the salutes in the Star Army during her reigns wouldn't surprise me. But I'm against disallowing bows being forbidden in the military in favor of salutes.
Kotori bows. She bows to show respect to her superior officers. As far as I'm concerned, it's what's been taught to her. If I'm suddenly told that she needs to salute in the military, after all this time having that mental picture ingrained in... I'm going to feel that Kotori saluting to Yui is out-of-character.
Wes, if you look back, if seems obvious to me that you're the only one in favor of this aside from Nashoba whom pretty much says something that's sums it up to "Why not do/allow both?". If what you want to do is not have to chew up every new player, then simply have the Star Army tolerate and allow the normal salutes, while leaving the prior bowing in as well.
Depending on which is the most used in the time that comes after, maybe the trend of plain salutes. You could justify the 'relaxed/varied' form of respects allowed on account of Yamatai integrating more cultures into its military - the Elysians, for example (a deep bow for an Elysian could be quite an adventure on a cramped ship).
The nekovalkyrja currently in the service of the NMX could salute as well since they don't have Yamatai's oriental background. If they're ever 'liberated' or switch sides, they won't be be used to bowing over saluting.
New players could have their new characters salute, older would keep bowing. The newer character from there could either keep saluting, or pick up on the other people bowing, understand why (Yamatai's oriental theme) and ape it as well. But with this, new players would no longer be in the wrong, and require superior officers to police them for the wrong form of respect given.
Himiko has been changing various policies to make Yamatai more open, more fair. Allowing the salutes in the Star Army during her reigns wouldn't surprise me. But I'm against disallowing bows being forbidden in the military in favor of salutes.
I'm going to take the approach we do at work.
What exactly are we trying to fix by making this change? The Wiki in multiple places says that in Star Army we bow. It has been this way for a while. If a player does not take the time to read the wiki, then their character deserves to be chastised ICly.
The argument about we are selecting various aspects, is irrelevant. This has been the established norm. Changing it because a player does the wrong thing. That just doesn't seem like a reason to reverse the tradition of years. Every faction has their way of showing respect, and we should not be trying to make them all the same, otherwise we dilute the aspects that make them unique.
The suggestion I meant was not to say both are allowed by everyone. There are specific instances in RL military where certain individuals are exempt from certain protocols.
What exactly are we trying to fix by making this change? The Wiki in multiple places says that in Star Army we bow. It has been this way for a while. If a player does not take the time to read the wiki, then their character deserves to be chastised ICly.
The argument about we are selecting various aspects, is irrelevant. This has been the established norm. Changing it because a player does the wrong thing. That just doesn't seem like a reason to reverse the tradition of years. Every faction has their way of showing respect, and we should not be trying to make them all the same, otherwise we dilute the aspects that make them unique.
The suggestion I meant was not to say both are allowed by everyone. There are specific instances in RL military where certain individuals are exempt from certain protocols.
Gabriel
🎖️ Game Master
I agree with Brian on this one. Although allowing both wouldn't be a terrible idea, but there can be some scenarios where a bow simply isn't practical. If one is in a hurry, it is much quicker to salute to an officer as the soldier runs by than to stop and bow at every superior. If one is in the presence of many officers, than is it feasible for a character to stop and bow to every one of them? Or if the characters are in an informal setting, while still technically on duty, does it make sense to perform something as formal as a bow?
The way I see it is more a matter of formality. If a character is in an informal setting (ex. combat zones, passing by each other on the street, in an emergency situation, during an informal meeting, etc.) then it makes more sense to salute. However, if it is a formal matter (an official briefing, a ceremony, a service dinner, formal meetings, etc.) then it makes more sense to bow.
Obviously, there would be exceptions to the informality. For instance, although it makes more sense to salute in an informal setting such as passing someone on the street, if somebody like the Taisho or the Empress walks by when you're in a hurry, unless there's a bomb about to explode then formality goes out the window and you bow no matter who the hell you are.
My two cents.
The way I see it is more a matter of formality. If a character is in an informal setting (ex. combat zones, passing by each other on the street, in an emergency situation, during an informal meeting, etc.) then it makes more sense to salute. However, if it is a formal matter (an official briefing, a ceremony, a service dinner, formal meetings, etc.) then it makes more sense to bow.
Obviously, there would be exceptions to the informality. For instance, although it makes more sense to salute in an informal setting such as passing someone on the street, if somebody like the Taisho or the Empress walks by when you're in a hurry, unless there's a bomb about to explode then formality goes out the window and you bow no matter who the hell you are.
My two cents.
MissingNo
Inactive Member
I would like to note that the "shifter" and Sgzyr were not raised Yamatians, nor were they inducted through the Yamataian military system. Sgzyr was a Qel'Noran, and a transferred recruit if I recall correctly, and Araiah Jal was a civilian of a race not yet encountered by the Yamatians. Both were new to the Yamataian (or, at the time, Geshrin) military and their practices at the time.
I don't know what Leiko was, or is.
I don't know what Leiko was, or is.
Sigma
Inactive Member
Gabriel makes a good point about setting. While sometimes in feudal Japan, subordinates did bow their lords on the battlefield, the most often case was a nod of the head and off to do those orders. Especially since those things were often time sensitive.
Since we're pressing each other for votes, my vote is to allow both. Both have a place in post-1868 Imperial Japanese military. To use feudal models would be extremely inaccurate for the kind of atmosphere Yamatai seems to have. That is: unified, militaristic, and dominant.
The presence of the Elysian suzerainty makes the parallel stronger. Feudal Japan was never truly united, even under the Tokugawa. The idea of a single nation-state only emerged in practice after 1868. A country divided into clans, and their rivalries, cannot effectively govern colonies abroad. A centralised government can, which the EoJ was.
Another thing - each planet does not maintain its own army. There's only the Star Army. To use a feudal model, each clan or however we wish to divide ourselves (planet, system, etc), must have its own soldiers who owe primary loyalty, not to the Empress but to their local lord.
@ShotJon, perhaps what I say is too in-depth but I cannot stand to see people talking about another culture like they are intimately familiar with it. Even my brief message is a huge oversimplification of the periods I mentioned, with many omissions.
It is also necessary to establish whether this is pre or post-Meiji because Japan almost entirely abandons its feudal traditions after 1868. What took Europe hundreds of years to do - move from a feudal to an industrial state - took Japan a few decades. In 1895, they trounced the Qing Dynasty in China, the only superpower in Asia ever up till that point. In 1905, they destroyed two Russian fleets and forced the Russians to give them parts of Manchuria. And we all know how much fighting it took to defeat in WW2. In 100 years, Japan went from swords and bows to battleships and machine guns. Few nations have ever transitioned so rapidly and Japanese society is STILL feeling the effects of that rapid industrialization and westernization.
So, establishing historical basis is necessary because it tells us what kind of Japanese culture we're looking for.
Since we're pressing each other for votes, my vote is to allow both. Both have a place in post-1868 Imperial Japanese military. To use feudal models would be extremely inaccurate for the kind of atmosphere Yamatai seems to have. That is: unified, militaristic, and dominant.
The presence of the Elysian suzerainty makes the parallel stronger. Feudal Japan was never truly united, even under the Tokugawa. The idea of a single nation-state only emerged in practice after 1868. A country divided into clans, and their rivalries, cannot effectively govern colonies abroad. A centralised government can, which the EoJ was.
Another thing - each planet does not maintain its own army. There's only the Star Army. To use a feudal model, each clan or however we wish to divide ourselves (planet, system, etc), must have its own soldiers who owe primary loyalty, not to the Empress but to their local lord.
@ShotJon, perhaps what I say is too in-depth but I cannot stand to see people talking about another culture like they are intimately familiar with it. Even my brief message is a huge oversimplification of the periods I mentioned, with many omissions.
It is also necessary to establish whether this is pre or post-Meiji because Japan almost entirely abandons its feudal traditions after 1868. What took Europe hundreds of years to do - move from a feudal to an industrial state - took Japan a few decades. In 1895, they trounced the Qing Dynasty in China, the only superpower in Asia ever up till that point. In 1905, they destroyed two Russian fleets and forced the Russians to give them parts of Manchuria. And we all know how much fighting it took to defeat in WW2. In 100 years, Japan went from swords and bows to battleships and machine guns. Few nations have ever transitioned so rapidly and Japanese society is STILL feeling the effects of that rapid industrialization and westernization.
So, establishing historical basis is necessary because it tells us what kind of Japanese culture we're looking for.
All that history is good to know, Sigma, but Japan still bowed even during World War II, which was my point, and Yamatai still maintains a strong clan system — hence my use of the word "feudal."
I'm with Brian. This is three pages of debate, which is great, but I think we've all pretty much said bowing is what we should keep doing.
Can we call it good and get a thread lock?
I'm with Brian. This is three pages of debate, which is great, but I think we've all pretty much said bowing is what we should keep doing.
Can we call it good and get a thread lock?
Hm, No.
No saluting in the star army. Saluting is interestingly enough a distinctly western thing, and is not done as often as you would thing.
Typically a salute is done when a cover"A hat, or protective headgear) is being worn. I went a head and looked up why the eastern nations do it, and the styles they do it are in accordance with British and American traditions. Typically Eastern countries bowed. So I have to support fred and who ever else on this.
Considering Yamatai's Japanese style, I think saluting should be something that the Western flavored factions do.
No saluting in the star army. Saluting is interestingly enough a distinctly western thing, and is not done as often as you would thing.
Typically a salute is done when a cover"A hat, or protective headgear) is being worn. I went a head and looked up why the eastern nations do it, and the styles they do it are in accordance with British and American traditions. Typically Eastern countries bowed. So I have to support fred and who ever else on this.
Considering Yamatai's Japanese style, I think saluting should be something that the Western flavored factions do.
Scot
Inactive Member
I would say yes simply because Yamatai along with the Nepleslians are the "Newbie" nations that need to hook the players in to keep them here. Saluting doesn't have to be "all of a sudden" but rather "gradual" just like any natural transition is. Besides, Neko's can easily get a software update, even when old player habits die hard.
I would say no to keep it distinctly "Yamatain" as it does make them more unique to other races. In the limited time I have played a Neko, it never really became an issue save awkward bowing after I noticed everyone else was doing it.
There is a lot of depth when you get to salutes, but it would be a bit bizarre for a future Japanese / Norse like race to forgo a salute just because it is against their culture, especially when it could slow things down. Because of this I would vote yes, the military culture of Neko's are or were supposed to be war machines with limited freedoms. The only setback of course is devising a wiki page that describes in detail how own bows and salutes, or at least the general grasp of it (like I assume players don't bow when they are under attack).
I would say no to keep it distinctly "Yamatain" as it does make them more unique to other races. In the limited time I have played a Neko, it never really became an issue save awkward bowing after I noticed everyone else was doing it.
There is a lot of depth when you get to salutes, but it would be a bit bizarre for a future Japanese / Norse like race to forgo a salute just because it is against their culture, especially when it could slow things down. Because of this I would vote yes, the military culture of Neko's are or were supposed to be war machines with limited freedoms. The only setback of course is devising a wiki page that describes in detail how own bows and salutes, or at least the general grasp of it (like I assume players don't bow when they are under attack).
I keep hearing a lot about Japanese culture...but Yamatai is Yamatai and not Japan, and we, as a faction, need to define ourselves instead of being defined by Earth cultures of the past.
For that matter, the Star Army is not civilian Yamatai (which bows) either.
Essentially, I want salutes in the Star Army because the Star Army is a military and saluting is an obvious sign of a military culture and something that almost every new player inherently understands.
For that matter, the Star Army is not civilian Yamatai (which bows) either.
Essentially, I want salutes in the Star Army because the Star Army is a military and saluting is an obvious sign of a military culture and something that almost every new player inherently understands.
Fred
Retired Staff
Then it sounds like you have already made your decision, despite you asking for outside input. You asked us what we thought in your first post: now you have our thoughts.
My suggestion then would be to allow for both and not discourage either.
I think finding some IC way to allow it (merging of certain millitary practices like the Elysians now serving on SAoY ships) would be better than just stealth editing it into the regulations. you add the salutes as form of address in, and if you want to encourage their use in your plot, you can promote it. Or at least not discourage it and see how that trend goes.
I also think it's very important that you not discourage anyone bowing to convey their respect in the military to be wrong. Doing otherwise would feel, to me, as out-of-character. You have to understand that for people like Doshii and I, we've been used to doing the bowing thing in the military and thinking it the appropriate thing to do for five years.
A nekovalkyrja's life for all intent and purposes is mostly the military. Kotori and Yukari have been roleplayed bowing for five years. I'm willing to have you introduce what you want, but not at the price of a retcon or suddenly adding the salutes and flagging the bows as 'wrong'.
We studied the regulations, Wes, and tried to stick to the behavior shown because it was the right way to roleplay in your universe. I think I'd be greatly contrite if you suddenly flipped that over. Such as, if Kotori bows to Yui in a military setting, it should remain correct. I hope you can relate with that kind of conservatism.
My suggestion then would be to allow for both and not discourage either.
I think finding some IC way to allow it (merging of certain millitary practices like the Elysians now serving on SAoY ships) would be better than just stealth editing it into the regulations. you add the salutes as form of address in, and if you want to encourage their use in your plot, you can promote it. Or at least not discourage it and see how that trend goes.
I also think it's very important that you not discourage anyone bowing to convey their respect in the military to be wrong. Doing otherwise would feel, to me, as out-of-character. You have to understand that for people like Doshii and I, we've been used to doing the bowing thing in the military and thinking it the appropriate thing to do for five years.
A nekovalkyrja's life for all intent and purposes is mostly the military. Kotori and Yukari have been roleplayed bowing for five years. I'm willing to have you introduce what you want, but not at the price of a retcon or suddenly adding the salutes and flagging the bows as 'wrong'.
We studied the regulations, Wes, and tried to stick to the behavior shown because it was the right way to roleplay in your universe. I think I'd be greatly contrite if you suddenly flipped that over. Such as, if Kotori bows to Yui in a military setting, it should remain correct. I hope you can relate with that kind of conservatism.
I never said Yamatai was japan, I said it has a Japanese style. I think saluting would sort of as it has been pointed out "Make yamatai" like other nations.
Yamatai stands apart, and I think the symbolism of them bowing rather then a salute kind of shows that.
But this is your faction Wes.
Yamatai stands apart, and I think the symbolism of them bowing rather then a salute kind of shows that.
But this is your faction Wes.
Wes, you know I support you taking a stand and asserting your role as leader of the site. I don't support you, however, ignoring what the overwhelming majority said.
We focus on what Japan did because that's how Yamatai started and we don't have much context about saluting in Yamatai. It's not been done very often at all, despite your examples. Most of us are used to bowing, and it takes one very minor correction to get people to start bowing.
We're not the U.S. military, either. And the Nazi's saluted from their chests, after all; cultures from the past combined a salute and a bow, or they hit their fists against their chests as a salute, or raised a weapon.
Add a salute if you like, but bowing should stay as well and not be discouraged.
We focus on what Japan did because that's how Yamatai started and we don't have much context about saluting in Yamatai. It's not been done very often at all, despite your examples. Most of us are used to bowing, and it takes one very minor correction to get people to start bowing.
We're not the U.S. military, either. And the Nazi's saluted from their chests, after all; cultures from the past combined a salute and a bow, or they hit their fists against their chests as a salute, or raised a weapon.
Add a salute if you like, but bowing should stay as well and not be discouraged.
Here's what I have in mind:
When to salute:
- When outside* and/or wearing a hat
- Reporting (for duty, or as part of a formation)*
- Passing a commissioned or warrant officer of higher rank*
- For the duration of playing of the national anthem at events
- When the flag is raised and lowered
- To officers of friendly nations like Nepleslia*
*With these it is fine to substitute a bow
When not to salute:
- In combat zones
- To anyone not in uniform
How to salute:
- US Military style (I chose this because it's familiar and only takes one hand).
When to bow:
- Any time you want to show respect to a superior of any rank (can be indoors, or to enlisted soldiers)
- Certain formal ceremonies (eg weddings)
- To non-military persons of prestige (eg royal family members)
- To civilian elders
When not to bow:
- When wearing hat or helmet
- In combat zone
How to bow: straight legs with the hands at the sides or folded over the waist, with deepness varying by the stature of the individual being bowed to and the person bowing. A nod is an acceptable return gesture to those of lower rank.
PS: Meanwhile, in Japan...
When to salute:
- When outside* and/or wearing a hat
- Reporting (for duty, or as part of a formation)*
- Passing a commissioned or warrant officer of higher rank*
- For the duration of playing of the national anthem at events
- When the flag is raised and lowered
- To officers of friendly nations like Nepleslia*
*With these it is fine to substitute a bow
When not to salute:
- In combat zones
- To anyone not in uniform
How to salute:
- US Military style (I chose this because it's familiar and only takes one hand).
When to bow:
- Any time you want to show respect to a superior of any rank (can be indoors, or to enlisted soldiers)
- Certain formal ceremonies (eg weddings)
- To non-military persons of prestige (eg royal family members)
- To civilian elders
When not to bow:
- When wearing hat or helmet
- In combat zone
How to bow: straight legs with the hands at the sides or folded over the waist, with deepness varying by the stature of the individual being bowed to and the person bowing. A nod is an acceptable return gesture to those of lower rank.
PS: Meanwhile, in Japan...
Tom
Well-Known Member
I don't like idea.
Having been to several sporting events and several 'national foundation day' celebrations in this fine country of Japan, the national anthem is hardly ever played at all. In fact, I've NEVER seen a Japanese citizen salute for anything EVER.
In fact, all that is ever displayed is a respectful silence when, if ever, the anthem is played.
However, they do bow (or nod) for almost everything else, from thank you's and apologies to greetings.
Yamatai is not Japanese per se but it's definitely influenced by it. Why are we trying to dilute this influence? It's been Japanese-esque for Yamatai and 'Americanesque' for Nepleslia since forever.
Saluting the flag? Saluting the anthem? No way.
Keep the flavors separate, or if absolutely necessary, make saluting optional.
Having been to several sporting events and several 'national foundation day' celebrations in this fine country of Japan, the national anthem is hardly ever played at all. In fact, I've NEVER seen a Japanese citizen salute for anything EVER.
In fact, all that is ever displayed is a respectful silence when, if ever, the anthem is played.
However, they do bow (or nod) for almost everything else, from thank you's and apologies to greetings.
Yamatai is not Japanese per se but it's definitely influenced by it. Why are we trying to dilute this influence? It's been Japanese-esque for Yamatai and 'Americanesque' for Nepleslia since forever.
Saluting the flag? Saluting the anthem? No way.
Keep the flavors separate, or if absolutely necessary, make saluting optional.
I don't like what you're thinking, Wes. That makes it more complicated, not less, for a new player.
Just have both. It's easiest and least obtrusive to the canon, not to mention less obtuse, considering many of us ARE civilians in real life and we don't keep track of all of these situations to salute/not salute.
Just have both. It's easiest and least obtrusive to the canon, not to mention less obtuse, considering many of us ARE civilians in real life and we don't keep track of all of these situations to salute/not salute.
Again, we're not talking about Japanese civilians here. This thread only applies to the military. And the Japanese military salutes.
It's not as complicated as it seems.
Here's the basic version:
- When you're inside, bow when appropriate
- When you're outside, salute officers in uniform that outrank you
Since the vast majority of the time, our characters are in spaceships, the bow will continue to be what's seen almost all of the time.
It's not as complicated as it seems.
Here's the basic version:
- When you're inside, bow when appropriate
- When you're outside, salute officers in uniform that outrank you
Since the vast majority of the time, our characters are in spaceships, the bow will continue to be what's seen almost all of the time.
And if a Neko bows instead of salutes? What then? Will the officer reprimand or strike them for it, or just take it in stride?
Wait ... you've got it so it's fine to substitute a bow for almost any of the situations you illustrated, except the flag, the anthem and other officers. I don't know why Yamatai should have to salute instead of others bow, or just saluting meeting bowing, but whatever. If we can just keep bowing and not salute, no problems here.
Wait ... you've got it so it's fine to substitute a bow for almost any of the situations you illustrated, except the flag, the anthem and other officers. I don't know why Yamatai should have to salute instead of others bow, or just saluting meeting bowing, but whatever. If we can just keep bowing and not salute, no problems here.
