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SAoY - Training Methods for Star Army Personnel

I think it'd be appropriate if:

a) Current and previous Yamatai GMs could give their perspectives on this.

b) Wes could sign off on the changes this has on his faction.
 
https://wiki.stararmy.com/doku.php?id=stararmy:training:training_courses#curriculum

For the first table here, since Nepleslian/Geshrin have a different training schedule than Neko/Yamataians, would they be trained in separate groups? While in theory it makes sense, I just feel that the difference in schedules may cause for soldiers who should be training and learning to work together being isolated and unable to do so.

If I'm crazy, just tell me, but could you explain why the training takes so much longer for Nepleslians and Geshrins? I know the 'download' training would take longer but for practical training I would think Nepleslians and Geshrins could keep up, out of sheer spite if nothing else.
 
Approved.

We can make tweaks as needed.
 
I'm not sure I like how the time figures are mostly skewed favorably toward the Nekovalkyrja and the Yamataian, with the Nepleslian constantly in disfavor. I think humankind deserves a little bit more credit (enough to not make them look retarded by comparison) while acknowledging the advantages of those with digital minds.

Here's what I think:
Anyone with a nekovalkyrja-like mind can store textbook data rather easily. This, however, does not relate to understanding. The difference between a Nepleslian and a Yamataian doing an exam pretty much is that the Nepleslian does it all from memory while the Yamataian effectively as an open book for easy reference.

Given that example, nekos and yamataians do have to study to understand what they receive for data. They don't become instantly illuminated from the moment they have data in their heads.

We have plenty of cases when new nekovalkyrja/Yamataian players stumble and make mistakes, so, putting a little more leeway in making lapses possible for a new forum-member is more credible. I think we should take that under account.

Also, there are things that a ~20 years old Geshrin, Yamataian or Nepleslian can handle much better than a nekovalkyrja (nekos turned Yamataians don't count - I refer to the years needed to reach adulthood). For basic trainings and infantry combat, nekos are probably great and speed through it - that's their advantage and why Yamatai has churned out hundred of thousands.

However, for much of the specializations, I strongly believe that the experience and maturity 'humans' gain through their childhoods, teenage years and early adulthood make them much better apt to succeed in comparison to the inexperienced and immature nekovalkyrja - born as artificial human-like dolls turned into girl-childs forced into the world of adulthood mere months beforehand.

This becomes even more important in advanced training.

All in all, the sweet spot likely belongs to the Geshrin-turned Yamataian whom benefits from maturity, experience and the digital mind. Nekos would exceed at basic training, general combat performance and militarization - places where the human ego needs getting used to. Geshrins and Nepleslians would trudge through basics, getting used to being in the military and operating as soldiers, but would then be able to proceed much better to specialized and advanced training. If a human is selected to apply for training beyond the basics, then it's very likely he's at least decently qualified.

That's my view of it.
 
One additional point of contention: I'm uncertain that using digital downloads so extensively, as portrayed in the article, truly accurately portrays Yamataian culture.

I recall that nekovalkyrja are supposed to like libraries and that they have a particular fondness for real books, and spend idle time enjoying philosophical debates and such.

Where is this reflected here? Yes, there is 30 days of socializing... but what's beyond that?

Might the approach even be... too artificial? I can view the digital mind downloads as being necessary for a neko to learn to function as a semi-individual in an adult world, but assimilation of raw data? The article even describes it on as being something to apply to non-digital brains species.

I've a concern this might be going too far.

I also think this is important to firmly establish now that we discuss it... because Nashoba's article is very important - it's one of the basis for fleshing out a character's background before play, and so makes a significant impact to new forum members wishing to participate in the SARP.
 
You have to remember this is not indicative of the entire culture. Just the training of SAoY personnel. But Neko and Yamataian's (NH22's) share the same brain, and Yamataians (NH22's) were briefly cloned as warriors just like Nekos.

Being Androids one has to ask why would they not download the data, and then integrate it by hands on?
 
Well...

1. Android is a word I've found for a long time to be a bit of an exageration. Gynoid sounds nice and all... but they are more like advanced bio-engineered creatures in the same vein as the Mishhuvurthyar than like Star Trek's android officer, Data. I think there's an important contrast there.

2. Mass-produced combat yamataians never happened, that I know.

3. Our players are human and relate better in that way. It's been proven, repeatedly. And while I could imagine Uso would interject with "A good roleplayer would roleplay these traits out adequately", I remember the days back when I was a newbie to the site and trying to encompass all of it.

I mean, honestly, most of the new people we get are usually nekos. Those nekos are typically the squeaky, cute, hesitant kind as they enter our setting at toddler step speed. Then, we start shooting at them before they've learned how to run.

Of course, it could happen to a human character played by a newbie as well. But somehow, I've never noticed their hesitant fumbling as much as I've with the nekovalkyrja (I wonder why, now that I think about it).

4. SARP in general has sort of thematically set bio-engineered creatures as the best at frontline stuff. but the humans, the older people, have nearly always shown how much more independant, capable of initiative and generally better at the more intellectual jobs they could be.

On my own plotship, I often see those contrasts. Tom and Yukari, Kai and Yuzuki, Kotori and Nyton, Nyton and Masako... those come to mind as example of the difference between a grown human and the much younger nekovalkyrja.

It sort of tells me, as we play these people, that downloads alone just are not enough to integrate things so easily. It also tells me that nekos aren't universally faster learners either. sure, the digital mind feature is a big help and the Yamataian/human has a leg up to the Neplelsian and Geshrin... but even then, the latter two probably are better able to cope with elements a young neko's short experience couldn't really accommodate.

5. There's also the human element in it, which comes in due to us being at the root of these people. It's easier to use events that helped a character become what he or she is, rather than simply shelve it as a "I downloaded that." It just more evocative.

6. Nekos love books. They really do. Nekos are also mostly in the Star Army. So why if they don't learn significantly just from read text, on a physical media even? Why would a neko even bother to read a novel when they could just download it for -poof- entertainment.

7. If everyone can just download something and then instant knowledge, its liable to be abused of. Us GMs, after all, typically don't allow our playerbase to learn skill lightly.

* * *

Early in SARP, Nekos had intrinsic abilities given to them so to have them rush to adulthood and be functional. Aside from that, I'm not positive the downloadable data was meant to be this convenient.
 
Fred, you are confusing downloading information with knowledge. Knowledge is developing an understanding of the information one is exposed to. As for why would they read books, for just the opposite reason than what you stated. Reading the book allows them to slowly process the information, to allow their mind to experience the words and create a mental image. Sure they could download the book, but until they take the time to actually read it, its just text.

As for the cloning of Yamataians, the Type 30 Mass Cloning provides details that says it was allowed, and there was at one time a Wiki page that covered the legislation to outlaw cloning the Yamataian species.

As for Android or Bioroid it is really a matter of semantics, the Bioroid is a biological android, built in the same fashion as a human, but with lots of improvements in the creation.

The training document is an attempt to explain the differences between Sprites, the original Mass Produced Nekos, and the newer ones that are more socially integrated, but are still very naive and young because they only have a limited period to develop life experience that is counted in months as opposed to years for the other species. At not point does it say that it makes Nekos exactly the same as the older species.
 
Nashoba said:
Fred, you are confusing downloading information with knowledge. Knowledge is developing an understanding of the information one is exposed to. As for why would they read books, for just the opposite reason than what you stated. Reading the book allows them to slowly process the information, to allow their mind to experience the words and create a mental image. Sure they could download the book, but until they take the time to actually read it, its just text.
Click to expand...

You have a point. I'm getting off track anyhow. ~_~

Also, I do think this article is brilliant on your part, Nashoba, and I think it's a great addition to the wiki. Don't let my nitpickiness hint at otherwise.

I think the point I want to most importantly take is that I don't feel the times it takes for humans to learn should be as long as portrayed. It makes humans feel a little retarded and lacking in aptitude, something my experience on the roleplay indicates they're not. Humanity in this roleplay has convinced me that it deserved better consideration.

I'm also unsure the nekos really learn that quickly either, digital memory or not. It's just never been implemented as that strong a factor in the roleplay itself.

What I'd propose would be to have the the nekos speed through basics as they currently do. However, once you get to specialized training, some vocations could see humans have much more ease with them ("I've trained in wilderness survival with the boy scouts", "I helped my dad fix cars when I was younger", and so forth) - nekos are made to be pilots and operators thanks to their digital mind and connections, but vocations like technician, doctor, scientist and engineer don't involve those as much in the practicing of them so we could very well see neko take as much, if not more time than a human would.

Furthermore, while I'm trying to make constructive input, I'd recommend the tables present show the time it takes for the Nekovalkyrjas, the humans and the humans with digital minds; with the latter probably coming ahead of the other two. Nekos are already endowed with many physical advantages that helps make them better soldiers - it seems natural for me that intellectually the other two would shine in other ways, with the human adults
digital minds getting the human's advantage of maturity and life experience in addition to the neko's advantage.

How does that sound?
 
The times are subject to tweaking as Wes already said.

The main reason the non-digital soldiers take longer is the longer time to transfer large amounts of information. The hands on portion is typically the same.

That said I have amended the tables to close the disparity.
 
I believed tweaking was my intent here. >_>

Also, I have a big problem with this entry:
Non-Digital Brain Species

For Nepleslian and Geshrin recruits training conforms to a slightly different time table. This is due to the data transfer method used. A helmet with similar properties to the Synaptic Interface Unit (SIU) of the Type 30 Mental Transfer and Backup Unit is used. It allows the curriculum to be download via direct input along the audio and visual neural pathways. Due to the limitations of non-digital brains the process must be repeated every other day for a five day period to ensure sufficient retention. Hands on training begin the day after the transfer is complete. Ocular migraines, headaches, ringing in the ears are common side effects experienced after the download sessions. These typically pass within twenty four hours.
Click to expand...

I won't deny that Nepleslians can include in themselves cybernetics and that they can, with proper cabling and such, connect to networks or hardware to obtain files.

But I'm very opposed to helmets like these that cram data in an organic and non-digital mind. It doesn't exist, that I know, and I'd assert that it shouldn't.

Again, datapad and textbooks should be the way to go.
 
One thing I think is that it could be rather dangerous to do this to an organic mind. Connections take time to hardwire in the brain, and so on, and doing it at a rapid pace could induce a number of abnormalities within the brain itself. One of the most prominent being a hemorrhage, tumor, psychosis or an outright seizure due to the overload of raw, new unprocessed information within the brain in comparison to outright processing and sorting power while in a conscious state. While asleep you sort more information, you also tend to remember it better within the first few hours of having gone to bed due to it being 'fresh' in your mind.

As a child, a child has a much greater learning capacity then an adult mostly due to the fact that there are an overabundance neurons during infancy, and childhood then in an adult. However, after reaching adulthood the brain still does create more neurological connections albeit in fewer areas. One of which is tied to the sense of smell, the other which in theory may play a role in the storage of new memories. But, the neurons we have in early childhood overall is the amount we have for life, and therefore we're stuck with what we got, and our learning capacity is theoretically capped at a certain pace. Essentially by adulthood, the brain has become hardwired and set. Going beyond that capacity could in theory cause more adverse side-effects then listed.

So I have to agree with Fred here (Perhaps for a different reason then he is going for), textbooks and datapads seem the best, if not safest option.
 
Mmm... Non-semantic clustering leads to cluster corruption in other sectors.

Start them as children mentally: A young Neko should have a child's mind, an adult's sense of awareness and the body of a warrior.

Children are so much crueller than adults: I'd think they'd make better soldiers because they're too busy having to ask questions, wouldn't you agree?
 
I didn't think it was possible for digital files and data to be transferred into non-digital minds. In the SARP, analog minds (like human minds) have always been treated as a whole. With ST data, one can transfer data in and out only as a complete mind, which would make loading skill modules unfeasible.

Nekos, however, are more like computers. They can copy and paste the necessary knowledge into their minds as needed.
 
As for the non-digital transfers, as you said Normal Soul Transfer is not an option. Which is why I opted for a download through the normal channels visual and audio in a higher speed fashion.

This is similar to techniques found in some classic science fiction. Using the normal paths to download stuff for reception. One example is some of the programmed training the Starship Troopers in the book received.

This is also why the process for those brains require repeated downloads to ensure it takes.

So if the download method is rules as not an options, then the duration for all non-digital brains is going to be significantly longer.

You can not have it both ways. Text books take lots of time to read in a classroom environment.
 
It's not my intent to keep harping on at length. I think I've made my views clear on this. I'll summarize since it's been spread out throughout this discussion.

  • Real books are supposedly important for nekovalkyrja, however there seems to be little evidence away from the race creation documents that they actually do. Solutions for that seem to revolve between either eliminating that non-applicable fondness for book from the neko wiki entry, or trying to more strongly enforce it.

  • I still don't believe in non-digital minded humans downloading data in the manner Nashoba described in favor of visual media such as textbooks, datapads and such. Especially not that device Nashoba described.

    I'd think that they likely would spend their days doing hand-on practice, while spending their evenings doing a lot more studying than nekos would ever have to do to retain the information. Hence, humans would have to work harder and they'd have significantly less free time during their training.

    Also, let's keep in perspective that a human takes at least 18 years to be grown enough to be a soldier. A nekovalkyrja youngling takes 3 weeks to be born and a month to be adult-sized - and that's the longest they take to be socially functional... at least in regard to being capable students. They are also physically considerably more capable than humans as well.

    Is the neko computer-like mind such a great advantage? I don't believe so, because we do not allow our neko players such convenience in the RP, and I think we should reflect that preference. Or at least revise, if not. I do think that digitally downloaded information has a very large role in making the neko a capable recruits from birth to it being adult-sized; that's no small feat already.

    Because of their fast growth, nekos already cut the time it requires for them to be recruits in the first place. Even if we go with the idea that they can conveniently stuff everything they need in their digital minds from there, though, it still only saves them from the process of memorization (as Nashoba oulined before that downloaded information is not equal to actual knowledge) - not lectures, explanation of practices and such.

    This is why I contend that humans are unlikely to be disadvantaged in that regard.

  • I also contend that humans should have an easier time learning their way through more complex professional specializations such as technician, doctor, scientist... especially if they don't involve the SPINE interface that allow the young nekos to operate some of the things on a starship intuitively. The life experience of the human and the baggage it brings is a non-inconsiderable advantage. The same would apply to advanced training.

I do apologize for being contrary, Nashoba. The four years I've spent in SARP just makes it hard for me to agree with this. You have my arguments though and depending on what you admins decide on, I'll abide by it. This is all stuff made up by Wes in the first place and I suspect you work closely with him, so perhaps I'm really out of track on this one after all.

Please give it some consideration. That's all I can really ask by this point.
 
In reference to the book loving thing- I have always played Sora as loving books over digital media for the same reason why I prefer regular books to e-books; it's a matter of wanting to hold something tangible or not simply dream the words. There is some notion of imagination inherent in nekos so there might just be a desire to come up with your own imagery from the written word versus whatever someone else has programed.
 
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