Series 7 Multi-role frigate.

[Jatsu]

They're being picky because he's using Ultra sounds WRONG!

A sound wave, nomatter how powerful or precice, can't read an electrical pulse.

It'd be akin to you trying to read a lazer printed document with your fingers. (No offense to those with visual impariments.)

It may not be able to read the electrical pulse, but with a small enough amplitude it should be able to detect and identify the neurotransmitters released between neurons.

 

[Cora]

And, pray tell, how can that tell what the person is thinking? That's the whole problem.

An ultra sound wave cannot copy the wavelength of a nural pulse. Thus a sound wave cannot copy what the pulse is, thus the wavelength cannot tell you what the person is thinking!

This is what Vesper was saying. This what Uso was trying to do, this is what the hell is wrong with the idea!

A sound wave cannot mimic the human brain! Even if it can tell what synapse fired and to where, it cannot pick up the electrical discharge, nor the lenght of discharge, nor the amplitude of the discharge so it CANNOT READ A PERSON'S MIND!

 

[Jatsu]

And, pray tell, how can that tell what the person is thinking? That's the whole problem.

An ultra sound wave cannot copy the wavelength of a nural pulse. Thus a sound wave cannot copy what the pulse is, thus the wavelength cannot tell you what the person is thinking!

This is what Vesper was saying. This what Uso was trying to do, this is what the hell is wrong with the idea!

A sound wave cannot mimic the human brain! Even if it can tell what synapse fired and to where, it cannot pick up the electrical discharge, nor the lenght of discharge, nor the amplitude of the discharge so it CANNOT READ A PERSON'S MIND!

Except for the electrical synapses in the cerebral cortex, the electric impulses only exist within single neurons. And, as I said earlier, the thoughts can be extracted from the hippocampus. The neurotransmitters will tell you which neuron is activating, which neuron activated it, and the type of activation (since if you can see the type of neurotransmitter, you can see the type of receptor it binds to). In other words, by knowing what neurotransmitters are received by which receptors, with a comprehensive understanding of neurology (which I assume we have in SARP time) you will know if there is a discharge, and if so the length and amplitude of the discharge, so it CAN read a person's mind.

 

[Fred]

If I said that bashing two rocks together makes a super computer, and said it over and over again. That does not make it any more true.

Within the bounds of suspension of disbelief, of course. >_>;

Will you guys just stop trying to be right and just have this debate come to a constructive venue? Just use magnetic resonance (which is somewhat sound-based... I mean, it's called 'resonance'...) and *poof!* you're done.

This thread is about a Nepleslian Frigate after all, not one of it's teeny-weeny components that really doesn't have much of an impact seeing that it's effect can be interpreted nicely enough with existing tech.

 

[Zakalwe]

It's not Nepleslian, it's QIS. Different bucket of fish.

As for ultrasound, in my opinion it works. Given the level of intensity that SA sensors can get to, and resolution, not to mention the computing power of their AI's, the ultrasound system can work.

Given that there are real world companies following the line of reasoning that this technology, which is far more than can be said for most of the technology on this site, I really don't see the problem. It is capable of detailing, with a high degree of acuracy activity in the brain, be it chemical storage patterns in the hippocampus, or otherwise, or the simply monitoring the discharges of synapses. This high amount of data, is then fed through an uber-computer which interprets the data. It won't have 100% accuracy in interpretation, but it will be very high. Also it can monitor body language to gain extra data, since full ability to read body language, the way the face is held, heart rate, breathing rate etc. can almost allow you to read thoughts anyway. Combine the two and there you go: Though reading.

 

[Fred]

...I thought 'Organisation that use it : NSA' had NSA stand for Nepleslian Star Empire.

 

[Zakalwe]

That may be, but the ones that designed and made it are QIS, that are equivelant to SA in tech level.

 

[Zack]

Nepleslian Star Army Actually, the old industrial sector is playing weapon merchant.

I agree with what Kotori is saying, a good number of you are coming off like half-cocked assholes in your arguments (and though I think vesper is being a bit to picky he is at least being civil about it).

I also think Jatsu had the last word on the ultrasound argument. GG no RE Cora.

 

[Vesper]

K, the ultrasound system may be able to introduce images and basic data and such (like a picture of the battle map), I am hugely less confident that it could provide very high detail information (a list of figures). The first one could be achieved, theoretically, by just exciting specific regions of the brain, the other I think would be far to difficult to achieve, simply due to the complexity and massive numbers of factors involved, even for the level of tech in the SARP. One of the big problems here is that every neural net (i.e. brain) stores information differently and accesses it differently, and this can not be predicted. This prevents the kind of non-conceptual data of a list of numbers, but the general stimulation of a region could be possible (generating a mental image of a starscape, for example).

Now, reading the mind with this system is not going to happen. Ultrasound could not read the electrical impulses, nor could it pick up the neural transmitters. These transmitters occur throughout the brain and I do not believe this system could isolate them. There are over 10 neurotransmitters and 50 neuroactive peptides that have been identified to date; each one could have different frequencies at which they would appear to the sensor as different than the surrounding proteins and tissues. These would be further complicated changes in pressure, temperature, and intervening tissue between the sensor and the neuron, all of which increase the difficulty of isolating it immensely.

For those of you who do not want to accept the reason above, here are some hard facts on the matter that would prevent it from being used in such a manner:

-Currently, bone has such a huge change in density (and thus reflectivity) that it can not be scanned and blocks any scans beyond it. However, advances in the technology should make it possible for dedicated machines to scan the bone structure. However, these machines cannot perform a normal ultrasound scan, it is one or the other.

-http://www.mercola.com/2001/dec/19/ultrasound.htm
-http://www.mindfully.org/Health/Ultrasound-Lung-Damage.htm
-http://www.scienceagogo.com/news/20010730231942data_trunc_sys.shtml
-http://womensissues.about.com/library/weekly/aa121201a.htm
http://scitation.aip.org/getabs/servlet ... s&gifs=yes
-http://www.ob-ultrasound.net/joewoo3x.html
-http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/1699905.stm
so this is not totally safe.

-The synaptic cleft (over which the neurotransmitters travel) measures a mere 20 nm or smaller, the neurotransmitters are much smaller. The wavelength of a 200 MHz ultrasound through brain tissue is 0.01 mm. That is 10,000 times larger than the gap, much less the proteins/peptides. Now, you can't possibly accurately scan something smaller than the probe particle (or in this case, the wavelength of the sound). Ideally you want the wavelength to be several times smaller than what it is supposed to probe. Further, the higher the frequency, the more energy in the pulse and the more damage it can cause (by just passing through the tissue, the accuracy becomes irrelevant), so you can't just increase the frequency ad infinitum to get to the adequate wavelength (the size of the particles the wave is bouncing between would also be a limiter that would stop the accuracy from going anywhere near the resolution to see a peptide, irrelevant of whether or not you cared if you caused damage).

=Magnetic resonance Imaging functions by generating a magnetic field of such intensity that it causes the water molecules within the body to reach exited states and release photons in the radio frequency range. These are picked up by the sensor. The field necessary for this would not be compatible with a high-tech environment and thus this application, since it would quickly lead to damage to everything in its area (especially nanomachines).

-Zakalwe, comparing ultrasound to the other sensors used in this system is not a viable method since the types operate via completely different mechanisms. Because one can scan at the molecular level does not mean other methods can.

 

[Zack]

I belive Jatsu already covered this.

 

[Jatsu]

K, the ultrasound system may be able to introduce images and basic data and such (like a picture of the battle map), I am hugely less confident that it could provide very high detail information (a list of figures). The first one could be achieved, theoretically, by just exciting specific regions of the brain, the other I think would be far to difficult to achieve, simply due to the complexity and massive numbers of factors involved, even for the level of tech in the SARP. One of the big problems here is that every neural net (i.e. brain) stores information differently and accesses it differently, and this can not be predicted. This prevents the kind of non-conceptual data of a list of numbers, but the general stimulation of a region could be possible (generating a mental image of a starscape, for example).

A couple centuries ago, people thought that it'd be impossible to determine which functions are performed by which regions of the brain, and look at us now.

Now, reading the mind with this system is not going to happen. Ultrasound could not read the electrical impulses, nor could it pick up the neural transmitters. These transmitters occur throughout the brain and I do not believe this system could isolate them. There are over 10 neurotransmitters and 50 neuroactive peptides that have been identified to date; each one could have different frequencies at which they would appear to the sensor as different than the surrounding proteins and tissues. These would be further complicated changes in pressure, temperature, and intervening tissue between the sensor and the neuron, all of which increase the difficulty of isolating it immensely.

I'm sure that 26th century computers will be capable of emitting more than one frequency. Hell, late 20th century computers were able to.

For those of you who do not want to accept the reason above, here are some hard facts on the matter that would prevent it from being used in such a manner:

-Currently, bone has such a huge change in density (and thus reflectivity) that it can not be scanned and blocks any scans beyond it. However, advances in the technology should make it possible for dedicated machines to scan the bone structure. However, these machines cannot perform a normal ultrasound scan, it is one or the other.

...yet we can already ultrasound the brain through the skull.

-http://www.mercola.com/2001/dec/19/ultrasound.htm
-http://www.mindfully.org/Health/Ultrasound-Lung-Damage.htm
-http://www.scienceagogo.com/news/20010730231942data_trunc_sys.shtml
-http://womensissues.about.com/library/weekly/aa121201a.htm
http://scitation.aip.org/getabs/servlet ... s&gifs=yes
-http://www.ob-ultrasound.net/joewoo3x.html
-http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/1699905.stm
so this is not totally safe.

"It might," "It could," "There's a possibility," aren't you the one who argued that Sony's patent being based on what might be possible wasn't enough? I also see that none of these mention ultrasounds performed on adult brains...

-The synaptic cleft (over which the neurotransmitters travel) measures a mere 20 nm or smaller, the neurotransmitters are much smaller. The wavelength of a 200 MHz ultrasound through brain tissue is 0.01 mm. That is 10,000 times larger than the gap, much less the proteins/peptides. Now, you can't possibly accurately scan something smaller than the probe particle (or in this case, the wavelength of the sound). Ideally you want the wavelength to be several times smaller than what it is supposed to probe. Further, the higher the frequency, the more energy in the pulse and the more damage it can cause (by just passing through the tissue, the accuracy becomes irrelevant), so you can't just increase the frequency ad infinitum to get to the adequate wavelength (the size of the particles the wave is bouncing between would also be a limiter that would stop the accuracy from going anywhere near the resolution to see a peptide, irrelevant of whether or not you cared if you caused damage).

nah, we can just increase the frequency ad infinitum to get to the adequate wavelength. Let's not forget that we're dealing with Nepleslians, not Earthlings.

 

[Zack]

I belive Jatsu already covered this.

I've added pictures of the ship (with the skin colors changed for background reasons) and with no logos.

 

[Vesper]

You cannot increase the frequency indefinitely. The first limiter is that the wavelength (proportional to the frequency) must be larger than the particles it is moving. When you get down to the scales of this gap this would present a problem, one that could not be overcome.

The second is that you cannot increase the frequency infinitely. As the frequency increase so does the power output of the system. If a frequency of only a few MHz is causing minor damage to fetal brains, the frequency you will need (which is going to be well above 1.5 terrahertz; a billion times higher than current methods) will assuredly cause damage, especially in the long term usage this system will receive.

And what does it matter whether it is Nepleslian or pure strain human? It's a brain, there is only so much you can do to increase its durability will still retaining its functionality.

=Weapon:

You don't grasp what this explosion would be like, Uso. It wouldn't be a cloud floating towards your target; it would cause a massive explosion of high energy particles within the weapon. This would be composed of very, very penetrating particles that would fly right through the armor (most of which seems to be focused on blocking kinetic and high-energy photonic releases) and expose the crew and sensitive systems to very, very dangerous levels (quick likely a very lethal doses) of radiation. Further the energy involved would probably cause the surrounding material to become radioactive for a good time afterward.

 

[Zack]

I'll remove that weapon add on then, if it is just going to recive complaints.

As for the ultrasound, bone imaging technology is already being developed and combined with the advanced knowledge of the subject in this setting the waves could be directed only at certain portions of the brain, at the right frequency, for the right ammount of time when a responce is needed so the total amount of sound waves bouncing around would be far less than what one would recive at a typical ultrasound process of today.

And you can of course cut down on the ammount of damage dun by lowering the amplitude of the wave which also cuts down on the energy cost of sending the wave which also prevents damage to the tissue that is being 'read'.

 

[Cora]

Uso, please anwser me this.

Are you hoping to get this ship approved, or are you just using the ship as a vassal to get these idotic tech ideas like the "Ultrasound Interface" approved, since you know they'd get shot down fast if they were alone?

 

[Zack]

Cora, stop flaming please. You have not contributed to this thread at all.

 

[DocTomoe]

Cora, stop flaming please. You have not contributed to this thread at all.

I think Cora has been quite helpful.

 

[Zack]

He hasn't contributed anything to the discussion aside from a few twinkie posts and outright flaming. Even in those posts he has managed to get the majority of his facts wrong even though he was simply copying what the person before him said.

If that is helpful... then please stop helping.

 

[sada sakue]

Ultrasonograhy is extensively used in medical facilities in France since they are safer (no ionizing radiation as with X-rays) and cheaper.

However, ultrasounds aren't suited for much things. That's why we still use costly X-Rays and IRMs. Some organs reflects 100% of the ultrasounds, so you can't see what's behind them. Air-filled organs like lungs, stomach, uterus (that's why you have to drink a lot of water before an echography) and intestines are opaque to sound, as well as hard tissues like bones. Which means you can't see what's behind them. Ultrasonography is also used in identification of tumors.

As you may have already noticed, your brain is surrounded by the skull, which is nothing but a big bone. So an ultrasonography of the brain tends to be impossible.

Current techniques available for brain scans are X-Rays and Magnetic Resonnance.

All this gathered from my (not so) old nurse school notes, and by many jobs in hospitals.

For the usage intended on this ship, i'd recommand IRM, since extensive usage of X-Rays tends to cause cancers and other funny stuff =)

 

[Jatsu]

http://unisci.com/stories/20022/0405023.htm