Should we adopt a resource point system for shipbuilding?

[Wes]

As part of continuing to gear the site for PvP RP, I went ahead and developed a simple resource point system. Starship resource points would be determined by what systems an empire controls and how rich they are (which makes some systems worth fighting over!). Each nation would get its SRPs on a regular basis - I'm thinking monthly. Starship resource points would be spent on shipbuilding by nations. It'd limit the number and type of ships various factions would produce, which prevents people from suddenly coming up with large numbers of ships, etc.

Here's a basic proposal of what it might look like:
https://stararmy.com/setting/ship_resource_points.html

 

[DocTomoe]

There is an inherant difficulty in applying such a system to the SARP, this is due to Aether, and Nodal devices. Indeed checks and balances can be applied, but this would result in continuity issues, unfortunately.

On the other hand, we could envoke the rule of: "Multiple aether devices within a single area operating at the same time causes a power drain upon aether generator units."

If that were to be used as a reason to cap off Yamatai's production capability, then there is hope for such a system. Unfortunately, the ammount of points that would be allocated to the Yamatai Star Empire would still be a monster of a number in comparison to other ship building goverments, which rely on other sources of power and other means of construction.

This is an unfortunate situation of IC continuity clashing with OOC good intentions and ideas. Maybe after bouncing around a ton of ideas, such a system would be able to be hammered out, but it would require a lot of effort to come up with a sensible list of checks and balances, which would still fit to the IC situation (Which is; Yamatai can make lead into gold, and barely bat an eye at it).

Either way, the idea seems nice, but at the same time it has its flaws. I'd greatly love to see such a system come into use, if it supports continuity.

 

[Wes]

But, hey, what's that have to due with putting number to resources? Whether or not this is implemented, the resources of the worlds are the same.

 

[DocTomoe]

The problem is, Nodal devices can turn a star system which has absolutely no value due to all the planets being lumps of dirt, into a star system that can produce massive quantities of iron, titanium, and various other elements which make excellent ship building materal. Hell, with nodal devices, it would be possible to turn the surface of a water planet into a sheet of diamond.

In point terms.

Crappy Star System A - 5 Points. Star System Contents; Carbon, helium gas, more carbon

-Yamatai Arrives and terraforms.- 1 IC Year Later.

Not-so-crappy Star System A - 50000 Points. Current Star System Contents; Carbon, Gold, Iron, Silver, Titanium, Hydrogen, Oxygen, Nitrogen, Helium, Etc. Etc. Etc, as much as long as the planets have matter to feed from.

Nodal devices make rules very very difficult to place. Simply because the nature of matter means absolutely nothing, and due to aether (In its current usage) , energy availability is a moot point.

 

[Doshii Jun]

Lemme see if I understand the arguments.

Wes is saying that worlds, and therefore states, would have finite resources. That means Yamatai can milk Hoshi no Iori for only so long. Worlds would also have some strategic value. That means Murf, for instance, would really have to be taken back, as that would add to Yamatai's resource pool.

Doc is taking the argument beyond mere SRPs and into the realm of production quality. Yamatai can, as Doc eloquently puts it, turn lead into gold, or at least different materials into the synthetic armors Yamataium and Zesuaium. The quality of its production facilities make its resources more expensive, but because Yamatai has the capability to essentially generate more SRPs through the Nodal System and what not, Yamatai can make highest-quality starships without suffering cost in the long run.

I think Wes is right here, but only because he is trying to keep the scope narrow. The Nepleslian Star Empire would actually do okay considering it has Delsauria and could convert New Kohana, for instance. They also have the power of the NDI, which seems to have limitless resources as well at its disposal.

If the scope is kept narrow, and Yamatai's not abusing its ability to generate SRPs, this works, I think. Sure, it's not perfect, but for now it's a good reference.



I still want to know, however ... why? Wes, you mentioned this keeps nations from creating IMMENSE fleets. But ... why are we worried about that? Was it just something that stuck in your head? I mean, those fleet sizes were done away with in YE 26-27, right?

 

[Yangfan]

It depends on how complicated you guys want to make this. If you make the system too simple and abstract, then people will be able to find loopholes and exploit them. If you make the system too complicated, everyone will just get a giant headache.

So, as my professors say, "make it simple as possible, but no more."

Easier said than done. But, this sounds interesting enough to warrant further efforts.

A few more factors to consider:

- technology level: Yamatai has a higher tech level than Lor, and so of course would make use of resources efficiently, up to and including "transmuting" materials into super armors.

- food supply: maybe reduce the number of automated ships, and ultimately cap an empire's fleet size at how many soldiers it can support (# of "green" systems?)... and maybe for every X automated ships, there must be one manned ship of the same class.

- mineral supply: I can see this being finite, but it would be simpler if mineral-rich systems generated them at a fixed rate. We can't afford to expand very quickly.

- production capabilities: maybe clamp ship production rate to how many shipyards the empire has, and set realistic values. If you insist that your shipyard can pop out a destroyer every hour, I reserve the right to look at you funny. -_-

 

[DocTomoe]

- production capabilities: maybe clamp ship production rate to how many shipyards the empire has, and set realistic values. If you insist that your shipyard can pop out a destroyer every hour, I reserve the right to look at you funny. -_-

https://stararmy.com/starships/qns/antaeus.html

Universal Constructor: The UC allows the Antaeus to maintain an entire fleet or simply create one. A massive cavity inside of the ship contains trillions upon trillions of nanite assemblers, different from the smaller ones of the HSCS, which can create ships and crew then jettison them out through the assembly bay. If the ship is really large, it can be assembled outside of the ship with various mechanical arms.
Location: Rear of the ship, Rear wings.
Primary Purpose: Construction
Secondary Purpose: Re-loading/Re-arming

/golfclap

Anyways, I think the system could work, if you can get past the horrible continuity issues. Also... what the hell happend to those Zero Fleet ships, and where did all those NH-17's go?

 

[Yangfan]

Well, that was from an earlier era.

 

[Abwehran Commander]

This is cool, I've had a type of system like this for when the Abwehrans to create and build starships, but my was a little less perfect than Wes' version (as you can see with its first fleet).

 

[Fred]

This is relatively simple...

Miharu
Dual torpedo Launchers (50x10x2=1000) <-- AoE
Aether Beam Cannon (25x10=2500)
Particle Cannon turrets (10x9x6=540) <-- shield piercing
Variable Weapon Pods (36x6=216)
Main Generator (4x400=1600)
Secondary Generators (2x200=400) <-- capacitors
Environmental Systems (320)
Computer (100x2=200)
Armor (50x9x7=3150)
Stealth Armor (200x7=1400)
Sensors/Communication Systems (100x3=300)
Shield Systems (200x5x3=3000) <-- Anti-Piercing, Shield Regen
Nanotech systems (100)

TOTAL: 14 726

Nope, my Miharu is a far cry from being resource effective.

Wes, engine values are completely missing.

Additionally, ore and mine systems should just have some values given to them. It's not anything another system hasn't tried to do before (such as Starfleet Command 3's dynaverse system). All races need to be given as little special quirks about how they handle thier resources.

For example:
Worlds held by the YSE for over a year can increase their resource output per year, on a ratio of +5% for ore rich worlds and +10% for green worlds; to a maximum of 150%/200% benefits. Worlds taken for over a year lose this bonus even if reclaimed.

Worlds held by the lorath see their ore gathering capabilities shored up to 150%, due to all that subturanean gear they have. They supposedly were underground for thousands of years (though this is seldom mentioned in tech submissions).

Phods get 125% production benefits from green worlds since they can make the most out of their foodstuff to make great Star Army rations: them being expert cooks and all.

--- then, you could add in cooperative benefits: let's say you take Fujiko, with a Material value of 15000 per month and a Sustenance value of 2000. It's been held for a year now and, let's add lorath miners and phod cooks for a bonus of +55%/+35%. End result is 23 250 resources points (able to contribute to building 2.6 Sakura gunships per month in term or resources) and feed 2700 crew.

Okay, so the odds of the YSE and lorath and phods pooling resources together in Fujiko would probably happen when pigs fly (pun intended)... but it served as a good example, I think.

 

[Doshii Jun]

Complication level rising with Fred's ideas ...

 

[Fred]

Not much worse than damage ratings (except for the multiple digits numbers and percentage based modifiers) any probably for braod values that 'nations' would care about instead of individual players. Seriously, that formula for calculating transit time between two places somewhere on this site is actually a lot more scary ^_^;

I mean, if Wes was thinking about pooling resources to determine shipbuilding capacities as well as that 'farm' TRPG thing from Yangfan, then, it just requires a collection on numbers given to each planet/system. A list with values is simple enough to make when you want to set a rough standard.

Then, you give nation/racial modifiers, add in everything and voila! You got an approximation of just what you're looking for in term of shildbuilding capabilities.

However...

I've been thinking on it while I looked over fabrication rooms and what an Irim Gunship seems to be able to build by itself and I've come to the conclusion that it might not be applicable in this setting. I'm thinking that while the attempt would have been okay if it was done from the beginning (or from a complete reset point), using it now in the middle just seems a little weak and inconsistant.

 

[Wes]

SRPs aren't related to food production.

 

[Doshii Jun]

A universe reboot's not likely, that's for sure.

I'm again wondering why we need this system at all. Who is going to create immense fleets from nothing?

 

[Wes]

Me.

 

[Doshii Jun]

*blinks* So this is ... a self-restriction?

 

[FM]

Why do I get the feeling Wes ran D&D games where he gave the players everything and had them fighting gods, without any warning? >.>;

 

[Wes]

This is exactly what it says it is...putting all the factions on budgets so the scale of combat stays small instead of bloating into the million-ship fleets again.

Why do I get the feeling Wes ran D&D games where he gave the players everything and had them fighting gods, without any warning? >.>;

I'm really insulted by that.

 

[FM]

My apologies, then. I've had some bad experiences with that sort of thing, so I hope you'll forgive that mental connection.

 

[Fred]

My concern is how to deal with the building capabilities of the ships proper. Ships can build torpedoes, shuttles and power armors. There are millions of power armor in the Star Army. That's why I am uncertain of if this could be discounted, especially when a dozen Mindy could turn a Sakura into swiss cheese (hey, nearly happened to the YSS Sakura in Mission Six before Hanako came to the rescue).