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The Great ST Debate

What action, if any, should we take with ST tech?

  • Things are fine as is. Changing them would hurt in-game realism and OOC fun.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • ST Tech should be modified to be less reliable so there's no longer certainty of living.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • ST Tech should be be much less widely available.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • I don't care about this issue, or am fine either way.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    0
  • Poll closed .
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Tom

Well-Known Member
Why does this topic exist?

I want to open the floor up to the community regarding ST Technology, gather their stances on it, and have us decide whether there is a need (or not) to change this technology for balancing issues or for the betterment of the RP.

What is Soul Transfer (ST) Technology?

ST Technology is a discovery by the Star Army that makes it possible for individuals to make a “flashâ€
 
I don’t hide my opinion on ST Technology well: I absolutely hate it. I’ve had to have shared my utter distaste for this technology with at least 5 people by now.

I dislike it so much that I’d rather see the entire technology eradicated. I, however, understand that, in our world of highly advanced technology where we can exchange bodies, some way of body-transfer needs to exist. I can accept ST technology for the sake of body transfers, I suppose, but I am vehemently against it when used to revive dead characters.

I will now lay down the basis for my opinion.

In an RP, we make characters that are, in effect, an extension of ourselves. Not in the literal sense, of course, as crazy characters do not lead to crazy players. No, it’s more of an exploration into our dreams, fears, likes, dislikes and “what ifâ€
 
All people aspire for immortality, ST grants this. It makes sense.

It's usefull.

And if someone wants you dead you'll still die. It's happaned before, ST backups have been destroyed.
 
But then you have Soul Savior pods that can withstand the entire ship being destroyed.

It's nearly impossible to KILL kill characters who matter. Any player in the know can bend the rules to their favor.
 
Kai died. Twice.

Ask someone about the details of his first death. That'll tell you more about ST.

Chiharu died, but I don't know the details about that.

Lot's of people, major people, have died.

That reminds me ... wouldn't the Empress have had a ST backup?
 
When I see ST Technology, I see something that was created to please everyone. It’s as if we felt bad that characters had to die and, in order not to hurt feelings, we made the equivalent of a 1UP.

I feel that this is pretty much why it exists, but we may both be wrong. It serves a purpose on SA, but I don't really like the idea of the technology much; this opinion extends to my character from an IC standpoint which I'll probably elaborate on in the future. However, I can see value in the technology and think of ways that ST can be used on a more limited basis.

The whole premise feels bad for roleplay and takes a little away from the seriousness of ones actions, but I most certainly don't think that it really damages the overall quality and that's what really matters.

That reminds me ... wouldn't the Empress have had a ST backup?

I think that she deleted them just before her death.
 
Wouldn't this cause problems with over population in the long run? The only way a person could die is when their brain could no longer function right? I mean SA is already over populated with Neko's and with ST no one could die. And wouldn't they want to keep a great scientist or warrior young forever? I mean just make an ST back up of when he/she is 20-ish in their prime let the other one die off doing insane missions then presto make another? It's pretty much a debate about cloning in the long run.

If you can't stand a logical death of your character then you shouldn't RP in places that could cause your character to die.


There Happy tom now stop bugging me on YIM.
 
Tom, you make good points. I don't feel as critical as you do about St records however... probabbly because it's a new gimmick to me.

The first thing I noticed was how similar it reminded me of a Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game, like Everquest and friends. You have a character, you play with it - it's pretty much your avatar in that world. At one point, you may be killed. The consequence? A lot of bother and an experience point loss.

You have to admit, ST recordings sort of make things look that way. Personally, I find it funny and if I have a tool, I'm going to use it. I'll agree with you that life is cheapened by it, but let's not forget there's a whole setting centered on an army using a race of bio-synthetic female warriors in the thousands as it's soldiers. I say the damage, in a way, is already done just by the way the setting is presented.

* * *

I'll throw a tangent and talk about how death was regarded in that other BBS RPG I was in before I came here. Megaman : New Horizon (*cough* yes, 'Megaman' ) has it's android be animated by what they called 'DNA Soul data'. Essentially, the DNA Soul represents the unique electrical imprint that a said android could have from the moment it was first activated - representing personality, archived long term memory and special affinities.

Even identical models activated at the same time, with similar brain casings, would be different... since no activation is exactly the same and even then, different perspective makes for different people.

If a character's body was compromised, it was possible to extract the DNA Soul. From there, a few things could be made.

1. Take the DNA Soul and join it to your own ressources, if you were not fond of the said android. The potential in the said Soul would allow the recipient to harness one of the best talents of the fallen (there is the eventual possibility of being freed, but usually, it's a no-no).

2. Keep the soul hoping to transfer it in another body. The experience of being wrestled out of one body and transfered to another, even if compatible, if generally traumatic and entails a period of adjustments filled with glitches and malfunctions as the DNA Soul adapts to it's new body. (I've had one amusing situation come up when a 'male' android got stuck into a 'female' body type. Lot's of laughs. )

3. The soul stays there, unclaimed, in a wrecked body. While undisturbed it can subsist for some time, the information represented by the soul can eventually start to deteriorate in a processus refered to as 'blight'. Furthermore, if the original body was destroyed through truly catastrophic means, the Soul DNA itself may be severely blighted as well. Blighted souls can be more difficult to integrate in a new frame and may not even be complete... though more often, the soul itself is spoiled and unusable.

4. On the planet 'New Horizon', there is a native creature nicknamed Grim Stalker which is notorious of being able to feed on non-organic/synthetic creatures since parts of it's system is sillicon based. When the 'Stalker devours a helpless android character, not only are the material components consumed, but the DNA soul itself is snuffed out of existence. So, when a Grim Stalker comes up... players are suddenly 'very' careful! ^_^

There can only be one copy of a particular DNA Soul, so, no copies or anything. While this does offer revival as a possibility, if the character remained on his own and was defeated... well, he was done for. That, in itself, encouraged party play (staying in a group and avoiding the lonewolf types) because it was safer and that if you did fall, one of your buddies could make sure you weren't a goner except in the gravest circumstances. Since the possibility of a party wipe was always present (I was known as a fiendish GM whom made his players go through very harsh - if epic - situations) it also encouraged the concept of shared victories, making everyone a winner (instead of encouraging damned godmoders).

* * *

In retrospect, the Soul Transfer capability the 'Star Army' universe also has it's quirks, it's pros and cons. However, I don't feel too overly critical about it at the moment.

Unfortunately, I also don't have any good answer to offer as to how it could be corrected. An analog to New Horizon probably can't be done - apples and oranges, really, when you consider the situation the characters get put in.
 
Here's what I'm thinking might help: I throw in a dice-based percentage change that a character can be brought back: Maybe 80%, 75%, 50%...(actual # doesn't matter too much) It would keep ST there as a resouce to players, but we'd have the fear of death again because one could never be certain.
 
Wes said:
Here's what I'm thinking might help: I throw in a dice-based percentage change that a character can be brought back: Maybe 80%, 75%, 50%...(actual # doesn't matter too much) It would keep ST there as a resouce to players, but we'd have the fear of death again because one could never be certain.

Russian Roulette anybody??
 
Hmmm... a way to nerf the ST technology would be to have a chance of memory damage and personality damage. much like making a copy of one cassette tape to another...
 
More intresting:

Certain percentage (the largest): Comes back fine.
Certain percentage: Comes back but has no emotional attachment to memories.
Certain percentage: Personality has changed. Retains memory's.
Certain percentage: Amnesia.
Certain percentage: Brain death.

(Certain percentage: Is taken over by cyber-demon)

That would make it more fun.
 
Wes said:
Here's what I'm thinking might help: I throw in a dice-based percentage change that a character can be brought back: Maybe 80%, 75%, 50%...(actual # doesn't matter too much) It would keep ST there as a resouce to players, but we'd have the fear of death again because one could never be certain.

These sounds good, but possibly implement it after the first or second time one dies and is transferred into a new body. Zakalwe's idea sounds neat as well.
 
Zakalwe said:
(Certain percentage: Is taken over by cyber-demon)

That would make it more fun.

Hmm... That is acctualy a decent idea. maybe have severe emotional disturbances and psychotic disorders.

Hmm... another idea is have like one free revive, then from then on have a given chance that the ST would fail or cause damages.
 
Also another point... wasn't (I heard this when I joined over a year ago, though, so I can't be absolutely sure) ST technology restricted to the upper echelons of command, and other invaluable staff?

>.>
 
Hmm...I've heard this debate before - that when a person is 'uploaded to the matrix' or 'digitized', they might lose some of that subtle stuff that made them human - much as described above, or as evident when you digitize an analog sine wave function:
awww.softlookup.com_tutorial_games_f11_2.gif
It might be possible to develop a technology that directly transfers the information to a new body, but storing it digitally is a little more iffy.

On the other hand, Ghost in the Shell has a 'braincases' concept, where people's brains, personalities, memories, etc. are kept in their actual brain, but this is kept within a mechanical device which attaches it to the rest of their body as well as allowing (relatively) easy and painless removal.

Perhaps starships could keep a few 'braincases' on hand, for use with the ST device when an officer is fatally wounded or approaching braindeath; then, characters could be killed if something blew up their head or if they stayed dead for an hour, but could still get a second chance in the case of a freak accident.

I'm not entirely opposed to the idea of a '1up', but I do agree that it can have some profound yet subtle implications for RP.
 
The problem with changing it now is disrupting a staple technology. I believe instead of changing it making the effects different for folks might benifit better. I don't need four paragraphs to say it, so I won't. Just as Rob pointed out, perhaps a large space of time between when lower enlisted members can have them, based on their performance/rank? Interupting it in the ways suggested which I feel are not plausible would only serve to damage the integrity of the storyline. Moreso than one would suggest ST does already (which I disagree to an extent there).
 
I'm going to be mean for a second, so forgive me:

Tenebrismo2000 (10/30/2005 9:51:29 PM): I've yet to see one instance of ST technology being used for anything other than reviving a person who by all extents and purposes SHOULD be dead. The whole "emotional trauma" stuff is just crap that players use to make them feel better that they got a lame extra life.

End mean mode.

If you can't stand a logical death of your character then you shouldn't RP in places that could cause your character to die.

I whole-heartedly agree. The problem with percentages is that it still allows for abuse of the system. We all know the GM can "roll" whatever number he likes and the players have to accept that. Why not just get rid of the problem in the first place?

ST Tech for body transfers is fine with me. I'd like to see something special associated with being ALIVE, though. What value is there to life when you can just be put into another body once you die?

And yes, ST tech does make RPing difficult. Players are afraid to be part of gritty campaigns without ST backups because they know if they die, that's it.

Edit To Rei: Damage the integrity of the storyline? That's already being done when certain characters have 0% chance of dying. ST Tech + Soul Savior pods = nobody who doesn't want to die has to. Anyone from recruit to Taisho. It starts being unfair when you discriminate who can and cannot be saved.

Edit 2: And why is everyone supporting one free extra life THEN problems? That's weird, like we're so afraid of dying that we HAVE to have a 1UP. This isn't healthy for RP.
 
>_>

Um, by the way... Soul Savior Pods are not nigh indestructable. If you give a look to the first Sakura mission, there is, eventually, a part when there is a lull in the battle and that lifeboats are being recovered, with SMX pods actually picking off the survivor. This includes a Soul Savior pod.

The soul savior pods are more likely to survive a ship's destruction because they will be launched into space before the ship itself breaks up. So, when a ship goes boom and that the S.S. pod does not launch... well, no backup data is to be retrieved.
 
I like ST concept but I don't use it

Why?"

Because people love to fuck with my backups or delete them or outright invalidate them because the GM didn't notice them posted being made!
 
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