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Approved Submission Type 30 Mass Production Escort
- Thread starter Wes
- Start date
Strangelove
Inactive Member
Wow, the hull design/shape is radically different than previous Yamataian models. Are these style of vessels merely the odd black sheep of the fleet, or is it going to be the new staple of Ketsurui Fleet Yards?
Derran Tyler
Inactive Member
Why would you intentionally leave a blind spot in point-defense?
It makes no sense from a designer's point of view.
It makes no sense from a designer's point of view.
Derran Tyler
Inactive Member
Still, I don't see how any designer can hand this off to the head of KFY and the head of KFY or hell, even one of the intelligent AIs that helped with the design and not hear something about 'there's a big gaping hole in our point defenses.'
Especially when the problem could be rectified by two more guns.
Especially when the problem could be rectified by two more guns.
Strangelove
Inactive Member
You're thinking from a gamer's point of view though. Not a designer.
Why were anti-tank guns and tank destroyers even used during WW2? They were far less agile since they had no moving turret, and could very easily be blindsided by turreted tanks. They also typically carried no anti-infantry defenses, so were especially vulnerable to infantry attacks too. But they were built en masse. Why? Because of costs. A turret required a power-train and the systems to move the heavy turret, thus taking up precious internal space and adding significant mass to a vehicle (thus slowing it down). A turret, like any moving system, also demands far more maintenance and much more complexity of repair than something as simple as a cannon barrel. It is also generally weaker since it's base has to be movable rather than fixed, so the seal may be exploited for this purpose. Also, the armor due to the hole that has to be cut for firing mechanisms to go up into the turret, and it's likely the turret won't be wearing armor plating as thick as the hull so will in itself be a vehicle vulnerability.
Of course this isn't fair when in comparison to starships, but my point still stands -- sticking as much firepower and equipment on a vessel as possible isn't always the best strategic solution. This vessel may actually operate with teamwork rather than attempting to be a one-ship fortress. The vessel may be intended as a high-speed raider, and has the minimum viable amount of equipment as to maximize it's speed and whatnot much like how tank destroyers usually gave up armor, versatility, and infantry defenses to provide a high-speed, high-damage tank killer.
On that note I'd point out that the reasons may not be purely IC. Yamatai, like most nations, has been generally downgrading its technology so as to avoid powergaming (i.e., my ship annihilates your entire fleet! Ha-ha!). Having a vessel that doesn't have complete coverage may also encourage inter-ship teamwork during fleet operations more than ever before.
Why were anti-tank guns and tank destroyers even used during WW2? They were far less agile since they had no moving turret, and could very easily be blindsided by turreted tanks. They also typically carried no anti-infantry defenses, so were especially vulnerable to infantry attacks too. But they were built en masse. Why? Because of costs. A turret required a power-train and the systems to move the heavy turret, thus taking up precious internal space and adding significant mass to a vehicle (thus slowing it down). A turret, like any moving system, also demands far more maintenance and much more complexity of repair than something as simple as a cannon barrel. It is also generally weaker since it's base has to be movable rather than fixed, so the seal may be exploited for this purpose. Also, the armor due to the hole that has to be cut for firing mechanisms to go up into the turret, and it's likely the turret won't be wearing armor plating as thick as the hull so will in itself be a vehicle vulnerability.
Of course this isn't fair when in comparison to starships, but my point still stands -- sticking as much firepower and equipment on a vessel as possible isn't always the best strategic solution. This vessel may actually operate with teamwork rather than attempting to be a one-ship fortress. The vessel may be intended as a high-speed raider, and has the minimum viable amount of equipment as to maximize it's speed and whatnot much like how tank destroyers usually gave up armor, versatility, and infantry defenses to provide a high-speed, high-damage tank killer.
On that note I'd point out that the reasons may not be purely IC. Yamatai, like most nations, has been generally downgrading its technology so as to avoid powergaming (i.e., my ship annihilates your entire fleet! Ha-ha!). Having a vessel that doesn't have complete coverage may also encourage inter-ship teamwork during fleet operations more than ever before.
If it's going to be point-defense, it shouldn't have a DR 10 Aether Cannon.
I also find it incredibly hard to believe a 170-meter-long vessel is run by one or two people. Is one of them slaved to the -IES? I realize KFY is trying to just throw some shit together as quick as they can ... but a Ketsueki-sized vessel would do this quite well.
I love weapon pods, and this thing should have some. Then you could remove some of the giant turrets and cut down on the ship's size and mass by at least half.
Also, why no DR on the turrets?
I also find it incredibly hard to believe a 170-meter-long vessel is run by one or two people. Is one of them slaved to the -IES? I realize KFY is trying to just throw some shit together as quick as they can ... but a Ketsueki-sized vessel would do this quite well.
I love weapon pods, and this thing should have some. Then you could remove some of the giant turrets and cut down on the ship's size and mass by at least half.
Also, why no DR on the turrets?
I dunno, it's not much different than an aether pod or a Mindy with a beam rifle.
I don't know, the pods thing seems kind of like a cop-out. This ship was kind of inspired by the simpler, rugged designs of Nepleslia, and as a cost-saving measure I eliminated any complex extras I could.
I don't see why. It has computer automation to run the turrets and key systems. The ship isn't any harder to fly than, say, a fighter jet. The second person is only really needed for communications and systems management (damage control, power transfers, etc).
Yeah, Yamatai's ships are nice for PCs to fly in, but not so nice to PVP against. This ship will help with that, I think. It's also a good "Starter" ship for new people who want a command but not a plot ship environment.
Yeah, I'll see about modifying the design a little for a rear turret. Designing a ship in 3D is certainly different than just doing a text writeup.
Ah, I see, the turrets are standard equip, so their DR is already taken care of.
It's a 170-meter-long vessel with an Aether Cannon though, and I assume it's not a small one. You're giving the vessel the chance to act as something more than it's capable of.
There's nothing rugged about this vessel -- it's got DR 5 armor and shielding. That's not rugged; it's cheap.
Weapon pods might be a cop-out, if you want to take Fred's line of thinking, but they're not complex extras as far as Yamatai goes. You don't have to give it many; just enough to give it rearward firing power and to cover its bad sides. Don't even give it powerful weapon pods, if that's your hangup.
And if you want a PvP ship (which still seems weird to even be talking about -- is Yamatai going to fight Nepleslia soon?) why are you making one 170 meters long? Why not a Ketsueki-sized craft? Something actually manageable for one person, and something that doesn't rely on the player to play two characters (the char and the computer)?
Wes, you've created a ship with one solid purpose -- disposable point defense. Making this ship into something that's PvP related is just ... you could do it so much better with something smaller. PvP shouldn't happen between giant vessels anyway, should it? Shouldn't it be with more intimate vessels, things that people can intimately work with, modify and so on?
What I'm saying is, if you want a fighter jet, make a fighter jet. This kind of vessel shouldn't be for that.
It's a 170-meter-long vessel with an Aether Cannon though, and I assume it's not a small one. You're giving the vessel the chance to act as something more than it's capable of.
There's nothing rugged about this vessel -- it's got DR 5 armor and shielding. That's not rugged; it's cheap.
Weapon pods might be a cop-out, if you want to take Fred's line of thinking, but they're not complex extras as far as Yamatai goes. You don't have to give it many; just enough to give it rearward firing power and to cover its bad sides. Don't even give it powerful weapon pods, if that's your hangup.
And if you want a PvP ship (which still seems weird to even be talking about -- is Yamatai going to fight Nepleslia soon?) why are you making one 170 meters long? Why not a Ketsueki-sized craft? Something actually manageable for one person, and something that doesn't rely on the player to play two characters (the char and the computer)?
Wes, you've created a ship with one solid purpose -- disposable point defense. Making this ship into something that's PvP related is just ... you could do it so much better with something smaller. PvP shouldn't happen between giant vessels anyway, should it? Shouldn't it be with more intimate vessels, things that people can intimately work with, modify and so on?
What I'm saying is, if you want a fighter jet, make a fighter jet. This kind of vessel shouldn't be for that.
I wasn't assuming. I was being a jerk -- sorry. Are you saying that it's not any more powerful than a Mindy aether rifle? If that's what you mean, OK, I get that.
And please read the rest of what I said; you didn't address it at all. I'm taking the time to try and help you here; give me the courtesy of responding to all of what I say, not just a cherry-picked part of it.
I was serious when I said it's too big for a PvP ship that's meant for 1 or 2 people -- why not make it for, say, 10 people even? Or 20?
Or just design a smaller ship that you can use for the PvP stuff?
And please read the rest of what I said; you didn't address it at all. I'm taking the time to try and help you here; give me the courtesy of responding to all of what I say, not just a cherry-picked part of it.
I was serious when I said it's too big for a PvP ship that's meant for 1 or 2 people -- why not make it for, say, 10 people even? Or 20?
Or just design a smaller ship that you can use for the PvP stuff?
It's meant for only a handful of people because bigger groups of PCs should probably have better equipment. This is made for one or two PCs.
Anyway, I added rear turrets and additional point defense turrets to eliminate the big blind spot.
Anyway, I added rear turrets and additional point defense turrets to eliminate the big blind spot.
That doesn't explain its size. You can pack a small ship with decent tech and bigger ships with even better tech -- Yamatai has the technological range to do that.
Fred has/had an idea for a much smaller ship that was/is designed for one to two PCs that would be more compact, more deadly and still not use the kinds of advanced resources you argue bigger groups of PCs should get.
I'm just ... darn it Wes, this makes KFY look dumb! Like they're running around not thinking anymore, scared out of their wits by the Mishhu. KFY's better than that, you made them better than that and have played them better than that! I just think this could be a lot better, even with a single week of IC design time. Am I missing something here?
Fred has/had an idea for a much smaller ship that was/is designed for one to two PCs that would be more compact, more deadly and still not use the kinds of advanced resources you argue bigger groups of PCs should get.
I'm just ... darn it Wes, this makes KFY look dumb! Like they're running around not thinking anymore, scared out of their wits by the Mishhu. KFY's better than that, you made them better than that and have played them better than that! I just think this could be a lot better, even with a single week of IC design time. Am I missing something here?
Zack
Inactive Member
The point of the ship is to look a big 'dumb' as it is supposed to be a design quickly thrown together to fill a niche that the SAoY needs filled. All and all this is a style choice and isn't really something that should keep this from being approved.
I dislike the level of detail on certain things like the weapons. At the very least a rough size of the weapons output would be helpful. Going by the submission I don't know if the cannons are firing big rounds or small rounds, just that they are shooting some sort of mass.
I'd like to see that addressed, but I don't see it as absolutely critical as a rough guess can be made using the picture.
I dislike the level of detail on certain things like the weapons. At the very least a rough size of the weapons output would be helpful. Going by the submission I don't know if the cannons are firing big rounds or small rounds, just that they are shooting some sort of mass.
I'd like to see that addressed, but I don't see it as absolutely critical as a rough guess can be made using the picture.
Like I stated -- KFY isn't foolish. As an entity, it shouldn't act that way.
Zack
Inactive Member
Having expendable troops makes sense for how Yamatai is fighting their war at this point. I just used 'dumb' to reference your post and as for how KFY is acting, they are Wes's NPCs and he should be able play them how he wants in terms of personality reguardless of how others view it.
Not arguing that. I'm trying to appeal to Wes and Wes only; since he doesn't like this kind of stuff in PMs, I'm doing it in public. So let me make my appeal without you piping up, please.
Your point is made. Wes' sandbox. I get it.
Your point is made. Wes' sandbox. I get it.
Fred
Retired Staff
Why not just tweak the submission a bit to make it a Geshrinari Yard ship to meet some demand for ships the Star Army of Yamatai has?
Geshrinari Yards don;t share the benchmark position KFY does. Nothing stops them from making a joint venture with KFY to help design starships to fill the thinning ranks of the SAoY. That KFY wouldn't build something like the Type 30 Escort? Yeah, I can sort of nod along with that.
But that doesn't mean that the Star Army of Yamatai itself doesn't need ships. While KFY is producing the Plumerias and Yuukos, Geshrinari Yards can help pick up the slack too.
Geshrinari Yards don;t share the benchmark position KFY does. Nothing stops them from making a joint venture with KFY to help design starships to fill the thinning ranks of the SAoY. That KFY wouldn't build something like the Type 30 Escort? Yeah, I can sort of nod along with that.
But that doesn't mean that the Star Army of Yamatai itself doesn't need ships. While KFY is producing the Plumerias and Yuukos, Geshrinari Yards can help pick up the slack too.
