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Vekimen Reproduction - Ruling

Discussion in 'Setting Discussion' started by Wes, Jan 6, 2018.

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  1. Wes

    Wes Founder & Admin
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    The canonical approved version of the Vekimen wiki page does not include anything about interspecies compatibility. The section on cross-species was an unapproved addition on 2017/04/02, after the last approval. Due to this and several objections for species creators and FMs, it is my determination that the Vekimen are not canonically compatible with other species for reproduction purposes and that their pheromones do not affect species other than their own, unless that species creator wants to add that they are affected.
     
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  2. Kim

    Kim スター軍の司書

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    This is an active Plot line in the Asteria setting at the moment. Would it be acceptable for us to proceed forward to its conclusion rather than gut the impact of the months of roleplay that has been going on? This would not extend past the sandbox. This is a national plotline and an active approved ship plot line for the Interregnum (asking on behalf @Gallant who is currently driving).
     
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  3. Edto Xar'Sivaree

    Edto Xar'Sivaree Lizard Freak!
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    Over a year of roleplay, actually. Interregnum was exploring the issue before asteria.
     
  4. Soresu

    FM of the Iromakuanhe

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    Then why not submit the section on Vekimen reproduction to the NTSE and solve the issue? Seems to me that perhaps an agreement could be met and all of this could blow over.
     
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  5. Edto Xar'Sivaree

    Edto Xar'Sivaree Lizard Freak!
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    Wes just said it was a decision made by the FM of the affected species, not me. Which essentially means that any FM can freely screw up my plot, and the overarching plot of Asteria, because it was built up on the pretense the Vekimen were actually a problem that would require the long process to fix, not just synthesize a solution based on whatever affected species. This also retcons a child that has been roleplayed, if it extends as far as I am assuming.

    What happened to roleplay being important?
     
  6. FrostJaeger

    FrostJaeger o v o
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  7. paladinrpg

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    I'm a bit confused why this was allowed to go on for so long and establish so much RP elements tied to it if it was inherently unapproved and disputed? This is a major retcon, some compromise should be possible to prevent undoing a year of work, eh?
     
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  8. Legix

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    To put it very simply: because people do not communicate these kinds of things. Unapproved edits are a very big running trend when it comes to the Vekimen, unfortunately. Not everyone has the time to look and spot-check everything (even Frost, despite what people think), and as a result things do slip by. This is why, when the topic came up recently, it received TONS of flak. Because it was publicly discussed and most likely saw countless creators and FMs (as @Wes said was part of his decision in this involved multiple) finally speak up on it, it got overruled.

    Retconning RP sucks, but this issue's avoidance could have come by simply communicating. Some people (such as myself) have opposed this part of the Vekimen for some time, with some despising other aspects. Most if not all of those people HAVE vocally opposed it in the past. The issue is that it kept boiling up and resurfacing, the tone kept changing, and things were joked about that clearly were taken seriously. This isn't some "flip of the wrist" thing that happened without reason: it is definitely unfortunate that people built RP on something that DID require input from other faction managers (such as those who voiced AGAINST the compatibility) and from the NTSE (such as the pheromones in their original state, though I believe they've been tuned down and still rose problems).

    If there can be an alternative reached, awesome. But if not, because this RP was built upon a lack of communication and attempt to RP with the site in mind? Then I personally feel that the mistake was a large one and is just going to have to be dealt with. Rather than scream and fight about "muh RP", which is precisely why the people opposing these traits spoke up (because they feared for the RP of their site being harmed or their own stories being touched by these) to make it about the actual issues instead, the solution comes down to people being willing to try and figure out how to fix and solve the issues of this RP.

    I still don't understand why unapproved edits get RPs built on them, but that's a discussion for a different thread. This thread does not need to be some whining fight, it needs to be discussion and attempts to find a solution instead of keep fighting.

    Edit: And a brief reminder? If you just like the RP, then just keep doing it. The RP would be non-canon, but if you enjoy RP then you should just do it. If someone is willing to argue "RP first", they should lead by promoting the fact that they can still RP regardless of how this outcome rolls. It shouldn't change your plot and effort.
     
    #8 Legix, Jan 6, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2018
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  9. Wes

    Wes Founder & Admin
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    Yes, existing characters/plots should be "grandfathered in." But since wiki canon supersedes forum canon, it would be a little different on the wiki.

    That is what should have been done in the first place, and it's still possible to do.
     
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  10. Ira

    Ira Ser Spit
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    Uh well. There is RP already in motion about this subject.
     
  11. Ira

    Ira Ser Spit
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    Okay,
    could edto at least have you review the article for him? To minimize drama over it?
     
  12. FrostJaeger

    FrostJaeger o v o
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    I'm pretty sure all submission reviews - regardless of who's doing them - are done publicly @Ira.
     
  13. Ira

    Ira Ser Spit
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    Are your sure?
     
  14. FrostJaeger

    FrostJaeger o v o
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  15. Acewing13

    Acewing13 Paradox Addict
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    I'd like to see how you'd react when your RP is threatened to be made non-canon. And don't act like things being made non-canon isn't a big deal. People want their stuff to matter in the long term and making them non-canon because a few people get their hackles up over something that probably will never happen anyway is dumb. It's happened way too much to me and the plots I've been in the past.

    Thank you for being reasonable, Wes. I'll be sure to communicate better on my end of the responsibilities (gm forum, wiki, etc) in the future.
     
  16. Legix

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    If it happened to me, I'd be really shocked. Especially considering how often I discuss and announce things I'm intending ahead of time. But if it did, I'd really not care... primarily because I build my plots around the fun OOC memes and community, with the RP second behind people having fun and feeling good with the direction.

    I won't feel bad for someone who creates without care for others. Sorry, but I'm fine disagreeing if that's how it has to be. This conversation is to help solve the issues of many with the Vekimen. Clearly it was more than "a few" given the fact something came from it.

    Edit: A true, #TheMoreYouKnowStory? When I've been told no for plots/RP angles, I've changed them and just gone on to do something that I liked/my players wanted. Shinpi being a big example. Originally, I'd intended it to be a Yamatai plot. Wes told me I'd have to do 6 months of stuff for Ronin, so I said "no thanks, but glad we could talk" and then made it into an Independent plot in Open RP. Shinpi is just as well-liked and honestly probably doing better because I cared more for the RP and just flexing around.

    That's actually why I ended up, later down the road, getting involved with Gashmere. Because I just stayed true, open, and spoke about my plot elements WHEN THEY HAPPENED and well after (Wes found out about the Kodian arms dealer in my plot well before I even really mentioned what I'd like to do with Gashmere at all, maybe about 6 or 7 months ago). So hopefully that provides context to just once instance that I've changed my plans for the sake of RP, despite non-canon/not being allowed my way. Because fun THEN RP matters above all else. All my plots started in Open RP because I could have cared less if they were canon... because SARP is built on good and fun stories, not on forced canon-category plots that just are because people want 'em.
     
    #16 Legix, Jan 6, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2018
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  17. CadetNewb

    CadetNewb Well-Known Member

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    Wes, could you explain a bit more on how this grandfathering in works? Unlike many more quick, flexible plots with short story arcs, ours is a much longer one, which we're very far into. It has the Vekimen's reproductive ability, and the horror of it, as one of the main driving forces behind the story and the actions taken to defend against it. This affects Asteria's metaplot. I do not want any of this turned non-canon, especially since this doesn't even affect the others. Where the others simply have to choose not to RP with anything dealing with the Vekimen, we're locked in and set on course.
     
  18. Noodles

    Noodles Active Member

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    A lot of the back and forth seems really pointless- These conversations don't really do anything but irritate both sides.

    Cadet and I are going to go through and adjust certain aspects of the Vekimen and resubmit everything that differs from the original submission.
    If anyone has any comments, suggestions, or concerns feel free to PM me here or on Discord as I am currently the Co-FM of the Vekimen. Obviously, I want to know the big issues people have. Given my work schedule and such I've been kept mostly out of the loop- however, I'm going to make sure that this is going to change.

    The Vekimen are going to be kept true to their form regardless of whether or not it makes anyone uncomfortable (though I realize that does not seem to be a well-spoken issue within this thread), however, I do want to hear what people have to say about any technical issues they see with the Vekimen or any clashing with the biology of other species, etc, etc.
    We really are just looking to offer a species to add to the fun of the site- just like anyone else!
     
  19. Wes

    Wes Founder & Admin
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    Well, their reproductive ability was never approved and isn't canon, so that part of your plot is built on a shaky-to-nonexistent foundation. I don't know what to tell you man, but the species you've had in your plot seems to be significantly different (the Vekimen as a disease) than the one that the staff approved (the Vekimen being a pretty normal species). I don't really remember seeing anything about this part of your plot in plot planning. I feel like this could have been figured out earlier if we had better communication.

    I don't really want to decanonize stuff if possible but I'm not going to let this stuff slip by either. Essentially this was a "bait and switch" where we approved a species and then got something that didn't match what we approved. This isn't the first time this happened, either. There was the immortality thing before.
     
  20. CadetNewb

    CadetNewb Well-Known Member

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    Given the amount of harassment that anything Asterian typically receives from a certain group of people, we are hesitant to plan anything out on the forums. We don't care for fighting tooth and nail for every single little detail. At the same time, as you have pointed out, not doing so is causing us problems as well. What we do care for however, is roleplay. We saw things that we could use for our plots, and used them to create a great story without knowing that they were not fully approved.

    Can we resubmit the Vekimen and have what we roleplayed as canon?
     
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