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A discussion I found on the old boards.

Wes

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This was from back before ezBoard, on the old Network54 boards:

Heavy Weapons
December 15 2002 at 9:06 PM

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What would happen if a 3-wile wide chunk of the sun was spacefolded into the air above a city?

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Scientifically..

Posted by Marty on 16/11/2002, 21:50:02 , in reply to "Theorectical Question"

It would depend on what part of the Sun you'd pull from.

If you pulled from the core of the sun, it'd be approximately 15 million degree's Celsius... where as if you pulled it from the coolest, you'd get near 6,000 degrees Celsius.

299726.85 Degree's Celsius is the temperature of a nuclear weapon at the time of the Fission, according to "Atomic Education" in Escquire Magazine 95. So that gives you an idea to the heat. Everything should be vaporized for a good long way and long term effects such as glacier melting, radiation, ocean boil-off, et cetera would be to be expected. However, there are a few factors not put into the "equation" as of yet.

If a three-mile "block" of the Sun was just to appear over the planet, I'm sure the flash would be enormous seeing as that every square inch of the sun emits as much light as a 6000 Watt Lamp. People would be blinded and the heat would destroy everything around.

Pressure is another thing to think about. If it's from the core, you should expect pressure that are equal to about 100 billion times the air-pressure on earth. The earth would be scorched beyond belief.

The only problem I see is how to obtain it for even, if my understanding is correct, electromagnetism would fail eventually trying to "lift" a three mile chunk of the sun was space-folded. The nuclear reactions could very well screw up the majority of instruments trying to manipulate the space-time fold.

Just my thoughts.

All Technical Information provided by Thinkquest.

-M

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That's good stuff, and sounds right to me. Don't worry, I have no plans at this time to attempt dumping solar core material on you or anyone else, I just thought it might be a neat idea for a weapon.

Now how about this, Marty... Someone creates a wormhole-singularity close enough to the sun to suction a nasty stream of the star plasma into it and spit it out at .96 light speed from a white hole conveniently located near the target?


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Knowing what a Singularity is, I'd have to say that you wouldn't accomplish what you're trying to do by using -that- method.

The Singularity would suck it up into itself and the star plasma would be broken down from it's former state and become apart of the ever growing singularity. Furthermore, Space and Time would be curved further and the Worm Hole would summarily close, provided it would ever open in the first place. That's why you can't Sub-Space Jump near black holes or severely large gravity wells such as planets, stars, et cetera.

However, all you technically have to do would be to imbalance the pressure and create a vacant space on the other side. An equilibrium would strive to exist so you'd suck up as much plasma as you alloted for. However, then the problem would be on how to make that vacant space - so if you can do that, then more power to you.

Logically, If you were close enough to actually open up a worm-hole near the sun, it wouldn't be close enough to suck up anything -unless- you were to somehow get a solar flare. But if you did that, you wouldn't be able to get the type of temperatures that are extreme like you would if you were to take the core. That's not to say that it wouldn't enough damage, but it wouldn't be as spectacular or devastating as some other weapons. It'd get the job done, just don't expect the planet to support life any time after that....well, depending on the Planet Size.

However, solar flares are totally random, as of current scientific knowledge on the subject. Another thing to know is that if you were to pull that, then your timing would have to be -flawless- because if you weren't.. then your weapon wouldn't be any more dangerous than a rather -low tech- nuclear weapon.

Anything else?

-M

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A Singularity would not exist...

Posted by Corban on 17/11/2002, 20:37:45 , in reply to "A Wormhole-Singularity.."

He said a 3 mile wide chunk of the sun. Not a 3 mile wide compression of the sun. The Sun as it stands will not transmute into a black hole until it's compressed into the side of a marble. At that point it will earn a Schwarzchild radius and become one hell of a gravitational menace. All the planets will still orbit around it since it technically still possesses the same amount of gravity. It's what goes on INSIDE the Schwarzchild Event Horizon that makes a black hole...a black hole.

So a Singularity would not form =/

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No, I'm talking about two objects

Posted by W on 17/11/2002, 20:45:09 , in reply to "A Singularity would not exist..."


The singularity and the theorectical sun in question are seperate entities in my conjecture. Forming the singularity is not the problem; using its power in an effective manner is.

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shakes his head

Posted by Derran on 17/11/2002, 22:26:33 , in reply to "Take a look at..."

The only reason the NDI's shields and armor seem so overtly powerful against people in the war is because they were using lasers - focused light beams. Since a great deal of the NDI is based off MOO, those lasers didn't do much considering lasers were Level 1 technolgy (50 levels of technology in Master of Orion, mind you). The NDI uses Disruptors, Phasors, Mauler Devices, Disintegration Guns, and Stellar Converters. You don't need something that overly elaborate to fight the NDI. More often than not, the more outlandish steps you take to put a hurting on the NDI, the less effective you'll be.

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Well

Posted by W on 17/11/2002, 23:18:49 , in reply to "*shakes his head*"

The only ship capable of remotely teleporting a solar chunk would be a Grand Avatarial Star Battleship. Such ships are the stuff of legends, especially on the warped, mind-numbing insides (there is theorectically infinite space inside of them, and weird stuff like firing a laser beam down a hall only to have it come from a different direction). GSA battleships are usually unmanned or manned with very small crews for safety reasons (psychological, mainly).

I don't see any encounters with a GSA Star Battleship in the NDI's future, so worrying about such things isn't required. My question was how to do it without using a TTD of DFC (transuniversal teleportation drive; directed fold canon).

My question to you is: what about this selectively permeable reality bubble shield I've been hearing about? Is it official NDI stuff? Please explain.

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Yet...

Posted by W on 17/11/2002, 18:23:55 , in reply to "A Wormhole-Singularity.."


If the singularity is a rotating very fast, it drags surrounding space in with it (material in the 'ergosphere', and if the ergosphere is outside of the Schwazschild radius someone can traverse the ergosphere and not be destroyed. This also creates a wicked plasma/X-ray/Gamma ray beam!

Quantum field effects could hold open a macroscopic wormhole, perhaps using a quantized scalar field. Negative energy used to hold it open could be produced by a type of Casimir effect.


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However

Posted by Marty on 17/11/2002, 21:07:15 , in reply to "Yet..."

In both cases, I doubt you could use the one factor of force (the singularity) to effect the other (the lower ammount of force that is the sun since the gravitational pull would be disportinate to the singularity pull) due to the fact that the wormhole wouldn't open up in the first place. And if it were, then it'd be too far away from the Singularity in order for the Singularity to have any effect. Since Singularity's have so much power, any stable distortion in space and time enough to open a wormhole would be damn near impossible.

Like I said, that's the reason why you don't see people opening up wormholes near huge bodies of gravitational force. It simply wouldn't be stable enough.

-M

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Bah

Posted by W (not Q, lol) on 17/11/2002, 22:56:04 , in reply to "However"


I think you misinterpreted it. The singularity is the wormhole. Well, it's part of the wormhole, shaped like a donut. The idea is to get this sun chunk to go through the donut hole. I am referring to a Kerr black hole, and the objects which entered the correct way would be exiting at a white hole or another black hole somewhere.

It is hard to find data on white holes and rotating or charged black holes. I recall seeing an article on the discovery of a white hole that shot out stuff at near lightspeed, but I couldn't find an online copy.

Sites I visited researching:
http://casa.colorado.edu/~ajsh/schww.html
http://www.cakes.mcmail.com/StarTrek/singular.htm
http://physics.nist.gov/cgi-bin/cuu/CCs ... e&First=bg
http://physics7.berkeley.edu/Education/BHfaq.html

Also, these links, while not entire relevant, are most intriguing.
http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/dwhig265/i ... and=AOL_US
http://www.geocities.com/paultrr2000/ZPF.html

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Yeah, I know what a Singulariy -should be-

Posted by Marty on 17/11/2002, 23:57:05 , in reply to "Bah"

Or, at least according to Steven Hawkings, who's probably the voice of reason when it comes to Black Holes. A Singularity isn't necessarly -a- black hole, but rather the center piece in which everything else falls into. To put it bluntly, it's the single most dense item of matter in the universe. The Black Hole is due to the collapse of the star in on itself, creating the imbalance of space.

However, you're not using a Singularity if you're using the theory that a black hole has an "exit" somewhere else. If you were, then the Singularity wouldn't let you get anything through. There's a reason on why light can't escape.

But ok, lets say you can somehow get it into a black hole (since that's the only place you can find a singularity). The heat, flame, et cetera would no longer be the same thign since it would have already been broken down by the singularity's force.

-M

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You mean the...

Posted by Derran on 18/11/2002, 2:30:53 , in reply to "Well"

Dimensional Screen. Those are only on Orion I & II battleships and Suzaku dreadnoughts. In other words: Super Capital Ships. Any other ship class can't power such a thing. But uh, I'll let Marty explain that.

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Explain...

Posted by W on 17/11/2002, 23:03:01 , in reply to "I'm going to show everyone how you properly deal with the NDI. "

...to me how the time space anchor works.

I'm very curious, now that I've stepped back into quantum mode. It makes me want to have some GSA ship explore a black hole (yeah, yeah, I know it's a one-way deal).

The hopeful end result of all this research (which has been going on IC for some time as well) is to create a new means of transport that the Avatars don't necessarily have to be involved with (I'm phasing out my gods). The weapon idea is secondary, but is plausible enough.

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The Answer to both your requests

Posted by Marty on 18/11/2002, 23:13:12 , in reply to "Explain..."

It works like Algebra, since both systems (The Time/Space Anchor and the Dimensional Screen) work on the same principle.

The Dimensional Screen, developed jointly by Nerimian and Dark Templar researchers, was a marvel in Dimensional Physics. Having already obtained the ability to bend space and create pockets scientifically, the use for it defensively wasn't but a hop, skip, and jump away. All that happens is that the space around the object (The Uriel, for example), bends around itself and overlaps..thus literally putting the object within into a pocket dimension. When weapons are fired at it, they simply travel the overlapped path and seem to go instantly from one side, to another without traversing the space anywhere between.

There are some draw-backs. While it's possible to fire out, watch the outside (due to SWR), it's highly improbable to move. The Unit using the D-screen has to remain stationary while within this defensive mode. This is because while within this "pocket dimension" a sort of sub-space is created. Distance is exponentially decreased, so any vectored path travelled would be further in distance than probably warranted.

So how can you see it, since the photons would also bend around? Well, just like you would anytime else. Since things can exit, but not enter - the glow of the ships numerous rooms and engine flare provide the ambient light to figure out that the ship is still there. Essentially, you could also detect where it's at by that same feature. However, a use of the Scalar Wave Radar wouldn't find anything because the ship isn't technically there to provide any ripples.

The Antithesis to this is the Time/Space Anchor, which is also within the NDI's repertoire. Like Algebra, if you can do it forward, you can do it backwards. Instead of using the technology to bend space and distort the time/space continium for FTL travel, you simply focus the polarity of those forces to create a sort of Hyperspace Flux that prevents the distortion of said continiums within that designated area. In all senses of the word, it's an on-demand "HyperSpace" Flux.

Curious if that helps any.

-M

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Wha?

Posted by W on 19/11/2002, 11:36:32 , in reply to "The Answer to both your requests"


I would imagine spatial distortion to be like heat; either present, or not. The opposite of the D-screen would be normalizing space instead of distorting it. A flux of hyperspace wouldn't be the the result of a stabilizing effect, you would merely be destabilizing another plane.

The TSA, by your explanation, would only effects objects that traveled through hyperspace to get from point to point.

Also, if space was distorted by a D-screen, couldn't a laser fired outward from the port side of your ship hit the starboard side, coming from the same trajectory?

And furthermore, a ship using a D-screen would have zero sensory, targeting, and communcations abilities, wouldn't it? No signals to monitor would enter the pocket universe. And how do you define stationary? Relative to what? The center of the universe? You're going to have quite a time stopping and matching speeds/direction to do that.


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Further Elaboration.

Posted by Marty on 19/11/2002, 16:57:22 , in reply to "Wha?"

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I would imagine spatial distortion to be like heat; either present, or not. The opposite of the D-screen would be normalizing space instead of distorting it. A flux of hyperspace wouldn't be the the result of a stabilizing effect, you would merely be destabilizing another plane.
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The thing is, Heat isn't Black and White, present or not. In fact, not a whole lot is aside from the sides of a coin. Yes, The Opposite of the D-Screen would be "Normalizing" space instead of distorting it. However, your perception is a bit off. Space, in it's "normal" form distorts in and out provided some force is acting upon it, like a Black Hole, a Satalite, a Star, et cetera. Everytime Gravity is used or Created, Space is Distorted. I used Polarization for a reason. When Space isn't being messed with, it's in a neutral spot - or the center of a the pole. When it's being distorted, such as in the case of the D-screen..it'd be on the positive side (for argument's sake). When it's been -prevented- from being "distorted", you're technically distorting it anyway due to the fact that you're keeping it from maintaining it's usual properties, thus the other side of the pole.

Secondly, your whole "A Hyperspace Flux isn't a stablization effect, but rather a destabalization of another plane" is redundant circular reasoning. All you're doing is shifting the perception. Either way you go, the effect remains the same.

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The TSA, by your explanation, would only effects objects that traveled through hyperspace to get from point to point.
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Essentially, you're correct. The TSA only effects objects within it's area effect range. Anything outside it isn't effected by the warp-dampening field. That's why Karack was able to pull some of his attacks. The TSA, in all technicalities, prevents the conduit between "sub-space" (Or whatever equiviliant like hyperspace, warp, et cetrea), from being made within the designated area. Whatever's in Sub-Space will remain in subspace and whatever is in "real space" will remain in real space.

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Also, if space was distorted by a D-screen, couldn't a laser fired outward from the port side of your ship hit the starboard side, coming from the same trajectory?
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Yes and No. Normal Beam Weaponry would.. but that'd be foolish to use and definately show the stupidity of the fleet using it. Phased Weaponry, or Normal Beam Weaponry enhanced with the Phase Compacitor is used so that self-infliction of damage wouldn't occur. As for missiles, it depends. Some of the more powerful, long range missiles have fold boosters on them so it doesn't matter where they're fired.

-------
And furthermore, a ship using a D-screen would have zero sensory, targeting, and communcations abilities, wouldn't it? No signals to monitor would enter the pocket universe. And how do you define stationary? Relative to what? The center of the universe? You're going to have quite a time stopping and matching speeds/direction to do that.
-------

Again, yes and no. If the NDI used 20th Century Technology or...heh, the technology of our less endowed partners in the Space War, then yes..it'd be moot point to use sensory, targeting, and communication abilities. However, with the advent of Sub-Space Technology and Multi-Dimensional Physics, it's not a problem. Like with Hyperspace Communications (MOOII), orders can be shifted from Real Space to Sub-Space, or subsequent Pocket Dimensions once the coordinates are found. Targetting works the same way. And the most important -tactical- sensory system that I can think of, the Scalar Wave Radar, doesn't require feedback like regular Radar in order to operate. Lets not forget SRIBOL and SLICS either. The statistics are provided with ease.

Stationary means Immobile. The Universe doesn't move, the bodies within it move. Besides, we're not even sure there -is- a center of the Universe.

Hope that clears things up.

-M

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Re: Center of the universe

Posted by Derran on 20/11/2002, 11:01:53 , in reply to "Center of the universe"

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I would say there is a center of the universe. It is that place which the galaxies moves away from. It contains some large black holes. If everything is moving, and you have nothing relative to position your ship to, you will experience problems.
-----------

How do we know what the center of the universe is? As far as we know, the universe is endless -- in which case there would be no center. Galaxies move away from -each other-, not from a center point. The way you determine your relative position to is to large celestial bodies -- planets, stars, moons -- so I'm not really seeing where we'll have problems. But anyway...

The Phase Capacitor (not compacitor) is a modified energy capacitor (the device that charges the energy for beam weapons) that phases the energy as it accumulates it to fire. The capacitor phases the energy so that it exists in multiple dimensions simultaneously OR phases the energy in such a way that it shatters molecular bonds of a target upon impact.

The Scalar Wave Radar is a sensor system that reads changes in the ubiquitious sea of energy that exists in space (Zero-Point Energy). As objects move through the sea, they make 'waves' that can be read by the scalar wave radar. A warship is obviously shaped differently than something like an asteroid, so it is relatively easy to diffrientiate between a ship and a stellar object. This obviously looks through cloaking systems since most of them bend radiation around the ship to make it hard to see through conventional sensors. In truth, the only way to effectively escape a SWR is to use a phasing cloak - which phases you into another dimension.

I'm not quite sure how it work from one universe to another (I've certaintly never used it that way), so you're gonna have to ask my associate about that.

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Hrm?

Posted by W on 20/11/2002, 11:46:45 , in reply to "Re: Center of the universe"


How do you transfer energy phased to destroy molecular bonds to the weapon, from the phase capacitor (i believe Marty misspelled it, which is why i didn't know what he meant). Is it phased only to break certain molecular bonds?

And the SWR, how is it that one sees the changes of ZPE? ZPE is constantly in change, everywhere, isn't? So even if you could detect such changes, you wouldn't see anything. The ambient ZPE flux would destroy any possibility of detecting objects at any distance (and the range of could be very, very short) Also, interference aside, I am wondering how a ship at point A would detect another ship at point B, without some sort of effect between the two points. There has to be some sort of emission from the target in oreder to detect its ZPE nature and compare it to that of "empty" space. How long would that emission take to get to your ships (light-speed) and what would it have to deal with on the way (interference). Because Zero-Point energy is ubiquitous, how do you figure a target ship would have more or less of it than the next object/vacuum? Being able to remotely view and analyze the very low-level energies of objects (and non-objects) whose energy might take weeks or so to reach you seems fishy.

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wakes up Hnn....

Posted by Derran on 20/11/2002, 14:41:24 , in reply to "Hrm?"

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How do you transfer energy phased to destroy molecular bonds to the weapon, from the phase capacitor (i believe Marty misspelled it, which is why i didn't know what he meant). Is it phased only to break certain molecular bonds?
----------

Well, an energy capacitor is the device that accumulates the energy for a beam weapon so it can fire. The phase capacitor is an energy capacitor that also phases the energy according to the information it gets from the ship's targeting computer. The targeting computer targets a computer and determine's the ship's materials and then instructs the capacitor to phase the energy to the destructive frequency (full-out-of-phase) for the target's materials.

The reason we can detect changes in the SWR and differienate targets is because the change caused by various stellar objects is -different-. The change caused by an asteroid (it's 'wave') is different from that than one made by a starship. The NDI's battle computers can weed through all the interference to present a picture of a ship's target environment that accurately puts any object a certain size on the screen. Since different classes of ships are pretty much uniform, it's almost like sound fingerprinting of a submarine - you know what the ship's wave pattern looks like so you can easily classify. (Hey, that looks like an Eldar Aconite frigate...)Mind you, everything in the universe is in constant flux - so that means very little in the whole scheme of things. While ZPE changes on its own, when a ship is moving through the sea of energy in space, it causes changes of its own that can be detected. But I digress...

The time factor is taken into account - the max range on a SWR is about 1 AU, so it's gonna take 8 minutes for the radar to pick it up. I'll give you that, but nevertheless, the SWR is just one tool - an early warning system if anything else. If the SWR picks up a ship, then we utilize more conventional radar systems to confirm the contact -- which more often than not will be a cloaked ship. Since they already know you're there, illuminating them on your active radar systems won't really hinder you, but rather it'll surprise a foe who thought he couldn't be seen. (Example: The Eldar trying to roll up on the 3rd Fleet and getting a nasty surprise.)

Some of this might be incoherent or whatever, but eh, I just woke up. If I left anything out, I'm quite sure Marty'll fill in the gaps.

sleeps

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The best example.

Posted by Marty on 20/11/2002, 15:48:29 , in reply to "Hrm?"

Since ZPE is a "sea of energy", using water as an example is perfect.

In a sea, water is constantly in motion. However, if I put my finger into the water and move it foward - the water conforms around my finger, thus creating an outline. When a Ship pops out of hyperspace or sub-space, they'll create energy ripples much like you would if you dropped a large sized rock into a body of water. Regardless of the inherent movement of the water, or energy in this case, ripples still occur - even against the flow.

If there is nothing taking up space in the body of energy, you could easily tell when there was something, and when there wasn't.

You could also look at the SWR like a Spider's Web. The Spider can sense the web being tampered with, and often-time uses that as a trap. The same can be said with the SWR and the ZPE Sea of Energy.

Besides, it's not just the encompassing wrap of energy around the object that detects it. It's the object's behavior. If the object is moving like a Space Vessel, taking vectored directions and accelerating and deaccelerating, then it'd be safe to assume that it's not an asteriod which is on a endless journey unless something else knocks it out of the way.

I believe Derran hit everything else.

-M

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Ugh.

Posted by W on 20/11/2002, 15:56:25 , in reply to "The best example."


How does one spot a puddle in the middle of an ocean?

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Who ever said it was strategic?

Posted by Marty on 20/11/2002, 16:02:24 , in reply to "Ugh."

It's a Tactical Tool... only for use for 1 AU in proximity...

-M

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Reasonable enough.

Posted by W on 20/11/2002, 16:05:02 , in reply to "Who ever said it was strategic?"


I just have this unreasonable desire to understand EVERYTHING.

Thanks for your explanations and all, very helpful.
 
From the looks of the first few posts these people have never heard of a fusion weapon.

If you created a weapon with the exact same type of reaction as the suns core, what would the point be in sucking parts of a stars core out just to throw it at planets, when you can conveniently bombard the planet with more cost effective, energy efficient, and probrably faster fusion missiles.

Just the same effect.
 
So, this is the level of villainy beyond the much-discussed Carmen Sandiego level!

I probably would have just answered 'the city would melt (or get vaporized)'.
 
You should have been there when we created Hill Spheres. Before you could FTL within any range of a planet, and somebody pointed out that you could just take a power armor and throw it at a planet at FTL speeds, essentially vaporizing the planet instantly.
 
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