Colonial Pact Relocation

FrostJaeger

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#1
The discussion of why the system can't be located below the Lonely Expanse and should be located in the western Expanse just needs to be more public or just readdressed so that everyone can read it. I would like to know where it is actually located so I can submit the base that is supporting the Lindorm appropriately.
On September 12th, I began the discussion with @Wes, @Arieg, and @Zack - and later @Arbitrated, as she was the one reviewing the original Helka Alpha submission - because of this JP, in which the Colonial Pact (via a former employee of Paragon) conducted a business transaction with USO. This transaction - which consisted entirely of weapons, if memory serves - concerned me immensely for the following reasons:
  • The former Paragon employee, Dean Lang, would have had no IC means of knowing of the Colonial Pact's existence (and vice-versa) due to the distance between the Colonial Pact and the Kikyo Sector and the former's complete lack of contact with the latter.
  • USO would have had no IC means of knowing of the Colonial Pact's existence (and vice-versa) due to the distance between the Colonial Pact and the Kikyo Sector and the former's complete lack of contact with the latter.
  • Even if the Colonial Pact did choose to send a ship "up" to the Kikyo Sector, the ship - which would not have been running "stealthily" due to having no IC reason to - would have been detected by one of the other factions long before making it to 188604.

Later that day, Wes asked the following...

Wes said:
Has the ColPact made first contact with any of the mainstream SARP factions?

...to which I replied with...

FrostJaeger said:
Wes said:
Has the ColPact made first contact with any of the mainstream SARP factions?
To the best of my knowledge, it has not, as evidenced by the fact that every FM who has replied thus far in the International Relations update thread has listed their nation's relationship with the Pact as "unknown."

I then proceeded to make a request...

FrostJaeger said:
@Arieg - Until @Wes has a chance to comment on this, would you mind either deleting this thread or marking it as non-canon, please?

...that Wes questioned...

Wes said:

...thus causing me to realize that I'd overstepped my bounds.

In order to avoid confusion...? Apologies to @Arieg and @Zack if I was overstepping my bounds in my previous post.[/QUOTE]

The conversation then remained dormant for nearly a month until I added Arbitrated to the conversation.

Arbitrated said:
Well I think asking the thread to be removed until a decision is made is a bit excessive, Frost....



Anyways. So, from what I've gathered by various sources, the Colonial Pact has yet to make first contact with established factions of the Kikyo sector. This would include 188604/Uso's Star Organization. Even for a group with fairly loose standards, I'm inclined to believe that Uso the character wouldn't buy weapons from an unknown supplier-at least without good reason.

I do find it interesting that Pact would try to make a fairly militarized trade agreement-I consider the exchange of munitions this-an odd choice given they would themselves not know too much about the kikyo sector, given that they live so far away. For all they would know they just created a deal with someone that might be at war with a larger interstellar empire that could easily annihilate them both...

Wes replied soon afterwards...

Wes said:
I've thought about this and I think the sensible thing to do is to put the PACT on the same map as the rest of us so it's closer. Either the main Kikyo Sector map or the Western map that Zack submitted would do.

...was followed by Arbitrated...

Arbitrated said:
That would work decently well, I think-would this remove their whole... "undiscovered" thing? As in, they won't just have appeared with all the assets they have without other factions at least knowing of them beforehand.

I did review the Helka Alpha star system over the past week-the next time the system gets sent to the submissions forum (it was rejected due to almost nothing that was requested, including following the template, had been changed), should Arieg plan to change the location descriptions to fit?

....and, two days later on October 10th, was followed by a proposal from myself:

FrostJaeger said:
Might I propose a solution? Going off of what @Wes said here, why not simply move everything to the western star map?


  • The system circled in blue - "Map's Edge" - would become the new location of the Helka Alpha, Helka Beta, and Helka Gamma star systems.
  • The system circled in green - "Edge Case" would become the new location of the Santa-Torga star system. The surrounding nebula - virtually opaque to sensors, thus explaining why the Elysian scouts missed it - would be renamed the "Santa-Torga Nebula".
  • The system circled in red would become the location of 000604.
  • The system circled in purple would become the new location of Hades in order to remove the only other star system "below the map"; the surrounding nebula - also virtually opaque to sensors - would be named the "Hades Nebula".

Arbitrated voiced her approval...

Arbitrated said:
I would be fine with this, myself.


Oh also, my previous post here was asking for clarification...

...and the next day, I asked Wes, Arieg, and Zack if they'd had a chance to look at the aforementioned proposal.

FrostJaeger said:
@Wes, @Arieg, @Zack - not to be rude /a pest/etc., but have you all had a chance to look this over?

Wes replied that he was waiting to hear from Arieg...

Wes said:
I'm waiting on Arieg to respond here.

...then said three days later that if Arieg didn't respond soon, he would be deciding for him.

Wes said:
If Arieg does not respond soon I'm going to decide for him.

Five (six?) days later, I "bumped" the conversation...

FrostJaeger said:
I don't know how else to put this, but...bump? I mean, it's been nearly five days without a response from Arieg, so...

...to which Wes responded with...

Wes said:
Well, I will stick his systems on the Western map. Does that solve the missile sales issue?

...to which I responded with...

FrostJaeger said:
Wes said:
Well, I will stick his systems on the Western map. Does that solve the missile sales issue?
Yep, as then it'd make sense for the VSGCRotCP to encounter USO first - as, well, they'd be the closest faction to them in terms of geography.

...thus ending the conversation.

Given what Wes said here in the Starmap Updates thread...

Wes said:
@Zack are you doing the Western map updates?

...I'm assuming that he agreed to the aforementioned proposal; additionally, in light of what he said here...

Wes said:
The Elysians didn't actually have starships until around YE 18 in the aftermath of the 3rd Elysian War. This is when Zack's 4th Elysian Empire broke off to colonize Purgatory and also in the years building up to the 4th Elysian War, which was the first Elysian war featuring spaceships (the 3rd Elysian war was entirely ground-based).

...there were no "Elysian scouts" (like those mentioned in the proposal) in the Western Sector at any point in the past.
 

Zack

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#2
@Wes

Arieg and I both have Frost blocked so naturally we don't see any PMs that come from him.

Frost doesn't RP on this site, so please keep him out of anything we're involved in.
 
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FrostJaeger

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#5
@Wes

Arieg and I both have Frost blocked so naturally we don't see any PMs that come from him.
Then how come you're listed as being part of the conversation?

image.png

Besides, you can't have missed the responses @Wes made - it's literally impossible to put him on ignore.

Frost doesn't RP on this site, so please keep him out of anything we're involved in.
This says otherwise, @Zack.
 

Kim

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#6
So just because you add someone to a DM conversation- if they have you on ignore they cannot see it nor any of the conversation unless someone that is not on ignore is the one that initiates the conversation. Again, this is a repeat of what was previously discussed. Zack and Arieg might have been added to the conversation but they are NOT able to see it nor have been, otherwise they would have responded to this sooner. Since this is posted publically, like in discord, they can click messages to actually see them even with the ignore on. This is not the same way for DM/PM. It blocks the direct interaction between the blocker and the blockee regardless of how many other people might have been tagged in the conversation.

With these facts in mind, these 2 GM/FM were not actually consulted or a part of the conversation of moving the systems that occurred at the beginning of the month and they have stated this fact several times since it was brought up. Nothing has changed in this regard, so let's move forward. Pointing back to a conversation that they can't see after it's been clear that they can't see it doesn't turn back the clock to including them in the conversation a month ago. Here we are, they CAN see the conversation and the discussion needs to reoccur with the fact that they were never involved in the first place.
 

FrostJaeger

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#7
With regards to what @Kim said above, would @Arieg and @Zack mind responding to the concerns I listed in the opening post in order to restart the discussion, please?

So just because you add someone to a DM conversation- if they have you on ignore they cannot see it nor any of the conversation unless someone that is not on ignore is the one that initiates the conversation. Again, this is a repeat of what was previously discussed. Zack and Arieg might have been added to the conversation but they are NOT able to see it nor have been, otherwise they would have responded to this sooner. Since this is posted publically, like in discord, they can click messages to actually see them even with the ignore on. This is not the same way for DM/PM. It blocks the direct interaction between the blocker and the blockee regardless of how many other people might have been tagged in the conversation.

[...]
Thank you for informing me of this, Kim; up until this point, I'd assumed that blocking in PMs worked like it did with forum posts.
 

Zack

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#8
Frost, we have zero interest in someone who only posts on RP on this site when they are threatened with some punishment for not posting.
 
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FrostJaeger

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#9
Frost, we have zero interest in someone who only posts on RP on this site when they are threatened with some punishment for not posting.
Please don't make false accusations against me, @Zack, as that's not what I asked for in my previous post - and I'm fairly certain that's not what @Kim meant when she said we should "...move forward."
 

Zack

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#10
Ok, but that isn’t a false accusation.

You Last three RP posts happened after three incidents where you were accused of not RPing on the site over the span of about 3 months.

Your NTSE posts are not helpful, and largely either ignore the rules of SARP or include questions where you spent zero time to find the answer on your own.

Your conduct in chat has been terrible, and seems to consist largely of telling my players not to RP.

As requested, no false claims have been made.
 

Rizzo

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#11
@FrostJaeger why do you put forth so much effort check up on people's RPs that completely don't involve you?

Seriously, if any of these location shenanigans were a real problem we could just storytell our way around them. Who knows, maybe the Paragon guy is just one of several people that know of the colonial pact and keep it secret for profit? Whatever, we can work it out when it's relevant.

I just don't understand why you're so fascinated in dealing with people who want nothing to do with you. I don't lie, you have the kind of detailed attention to be a phenomenal writer and GM. If you would only just focus on your own story and that of your faction the Elysian Empire would be relevant again.
Guaranteed, lifetime warranty.

I look and see the detail of your posts and it truly impresses me. I would just prefer to see the contents of such posts be relevant to your story before critiquing everyone else's. No one's perfect, we will all make mistakes. Is there a reason relevant to your story that demands forcing the attention of people that don't want to talk to you?
 

FrostJaeger

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#12
Ok, but that isn’t a false accusation.

You Last three RP posts happened after three incidents where you were accused of not RPing on the site over the span of about 3 months.

Your NTSE posts are not helpful, and largely either ignore the rules of SARP or include questions where you spent zero time to find the answer on your own.

Your conduct in chat has been terrible, and seems to consist largely of telling my players not to RP.

As requested, no false claims have been made.
Why are you making slanderous accusations against me, @Zack? Please stop derailing this thread.

@FrostJaeger why do you put forth so much effort check up on people's RPs that completely don't involve you?

Seriously, if any of these location shenanigans were a real problem we could just storytell our way around them.

Who knows, maybe the Paragon guy is just one of several people that know of the colonial pact and keep it secret for profit? Whatever, we can work it out when it's relevant.

I just don't understand why you're so fascinated in dealing with people who want nothing to do with you. I don't lie, you have the kind of detailed attention to be a phenomenal writer and GM. If you would only just focus on your own story and that of your faction the Elysian Empire would be relevant again.
Guaranteed, lifetime warranty.

I look and see the detail of your posts and it truly impresses me. I would just prefer to see the contents of such posts be relevant to your story before critiquing everyone else's. No one's perfect, we will all make mistakes. Is there a reason relevant to your story that demands forcing the attention of people that don't want to talk to you?
Please do not attempt to derail this thread, @Rizzo. This thread is about the location of the Colonial Pact, not my actions/beliefs/etc. If you have complaints/concerns/etc. about them, please send me a private message.

As it apparently got missed the first time, would @Arieg and @Zack mind responding to the concerns I listed in the opening post in order to restart the discussion, please?
 

Zack

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#13
This thread is an off topic thread. Neither myself or Arieg see any reason to respond to it other than to point out Frost’s lack of RP on this site.
 
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FrostJaeger

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#14
This thread is an off topic thread. Neither myself or Arieg see any reason to respond to it other than to point out Frost’s lack of RP on this site.
It's hard to "...move forward" when one side refuses to talk to other, @Zack. Would you and/or @Arieg mind addressing the concerns (the three bullet points at the start of the post) I raised here, please?
 

Zack

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#15
Frost, you are not a side to this dicussion,
unreasonable requests will be ignored.
Can you stop trying to get involved, this
kind of bullshit is really annoying.

Of course you can RP on this site, but
find some other way to wind your time besides
finding ways to inser yourself in our RP
 

raz

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#17
Wes himself has stated a preference for not having extra "hidden" maps off of the main one. Moreover, that opinion isn't something new or directed at Arieg's faction but is rather an idea SARP has grappled with and decided against in the past.

Given that — along with the fact that the PACT is only a part of the SARPiverse because Wes is a nice dude and not because it fits with or belongs in the setting — I'm not sure why everyone wants to argue with the current policy and frame this like it's something heavily connected to Frost.

Wes doesn't want silly x-axis maps. The Kikyo Sector already has x-axis depth (Nepleslia and Yamatai aren't necessarily on the same axis at all) even though people are rarely inspired to talk about it in RP. Plus, it's best to avoid another esoteric user-sector map that'll eventually fall behind on updates and become abandoned in a few years.

Also, the fact that these "underworld" systems aren't really super far from Yamatai or the Star Army's theatre of operations really makes it hard to believe the SAoY, Nepleslia, the former Lorath Matriarchy, Freespacers, or Abwehrans had never noticed the colonies being developed to the point at which they're being presented.

Your stuff has to make sense and fit within the collective suspension of disbelief. Putting them super close "underneath" the Kikyo Sector is unbelievable. And most importantly: Wes has to like your idea.
 

Fred

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#18
I've been eyeing this, and the stuff thrown around... and I tried to narrow down what actually seemed to matter about this.

The Pact and Oni needs a place to be. They need a place where not much people would have run into them, while being close enough to be able to distribute goods.

I think Arieg's upper plane/negative plane/whatever is kind of beyond the point. Doesn't matter, so best just to move on from that.

At this point in time, humankind is mostly represented by Nepleslia and Yamatai. Yamatai's borders kind of fall off around the Chen nebula, becuase there are a few alien species beyond there that we havent found out. It's a location Yamatai hasn't done that much expanding into. But that border is fairly close to independent worlds like Halna, which has been a haven for independents. I'm thinking about east of the Chen nebula is actually a good spot to put it there. It's enough out of notice of Yamatai (fold is point-to-point, and the closest Yamatai might have gone to them is just traveling from Gartagen to Lorath space). Emissions from there could have been muted by the nebula, but they might not have been entirely unknown by the civilians operating in the area (and if I was independent, I wouldn't tattle-tale about a place where I can get/sell goods without the trade laws a nation likely places on merchants).

Basically, I don't think this needs this much fuss. At this point in time, the Pact hasn't received that much attention. They get placed presently, and they might be found afterwards.
 
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FrostJaeger

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#19
I've been eyeing this, and the stuff thrown around... and I tried to narrow down what actually seemed to matter about this.

The Pact and Oni needs a place to be. They need a place where not much people would have run into them, while being close enough to be able to distribute goods.
The location proposed here would allow for both of those to occur, @Fred.

I think Arieg's upper plane/negative plane/whatever is kind of beyond the point. Doesn't matter, so best just to move on from that.
@Wes apparently feels otherwise, based upon what he said here.

At this point in time, humankind is mostly represented by Nepleslia and Yamatai. Yamatai's borders kind of fall off around the Chen nebula, becuase there are a few alien species beyond there that we havent found out. It's a location Yamatai hasn't done that much expanding into. But that border is fairly close to independent worlds like Halna, which has been a haven for independents. I'm thinking about east of the Chen nebula is actually a good spot to put it there. It's enough out of notice of Yamatai (fold is point-to-point, and the closest Yamatai might have gone to them is just traveling from Gartagen to Lorath space). Emissions from there could have been muted by the nebula, but they might not have been entirely unknown by the civilians operating in the area (and if I was independent, I wouldn't tattle-tale about a place where I can get/sell goods without the trade laws a nation likely places on merchants).
The problem with this solution is that the Scientific Studies Service would have stumbled across the systems when SX-01 and SX-02 were charted in YE 31.

Basically, I don't think this needs this much fuss. At this point in time, the Pact hasn't received that much attention. They get placed presently, and they might be found afterwards.
I beg to differ, seeing as how this is isn't the first time this has happened.

Would @Zack and/or @Arieg mind addressing the concerns (the three bullet points at the start of the post) I raised here, please?
 
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Arieg

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#20
I've been eyeing this, and the stuff thrown around... and I tried to narrow down what actually seemed to matter about this.

The Pact and Oni needs a place to be. They need a place where not much people would have run into them, while being close enough to be able to distribute goods.

I think Arieg's upper plane/negative plane/whatever is kind of beyond the point. Doesn't matter, so best just to move on from that.

At this point in time, humankind is mostly represented by Nepleslia and Yamatai. Yamatai's borders kind of fall off around the Chen nebula, becuase there are a few alien species beyond there that we havent found out. It's a location Yamatai hasn't done that much expanding into. But that border is fairly close to independent worlds like Halna, which has been a haven for independents. I'm thinking about east of the Chen nebula is actually a good spot to put it there. It's enough out of notice of Yamatai (fold is point-to-point, and the closest Yamatai might have gone to them is just traveling from Gartagen to Lorath space). Emissions from there could have been muted by the nebula, but they might not have been entirely unknown by the civilians operating in the area (and if I was independent, I wouldn't tattle-tale about a place where I can get/sell goods without the trade laws a nation likely places on merchants).

Basically, I don't think this needs this much fuss. At this point in time, the Pact hasn't received that much attention. They get placed presently, and they might be found afterwards.
Perfectly willing to do this and I'll start modifying the articles accordingly @Fred.