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Daisy II 10 Year Review OOC

demibear

demibear

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It was mentioned that some wanted to express their OOC opinions regarding the Daisy/Mindy/other Power Armor in the setting. So I am going to open this thread for this for that purpose.

Friendly reminder: be civil to each other. If you feel like things are getting personal/heated, walk away please and come back to this later.
 
I am at work so I can only take a moment to post, but I want to point out that SARP has very little in terms of budget and good power armor art tends to be expensive. What few pieces of art we do have I would like to get the most out of. If we drastically change SAoY equipment this obsoletes existing art and necessitates new art (because I am trying to keep Yamatai's item catalog high quality and illustrated). Therefore design with mindfulness of this.
 
So I think that we do need to make the Daisy III tier 5 rather than tier 4. However, like with the f-18 hornet/f-18 super hornet I think we can keep the look the same. So a slight change like that doesn't need to change the art. Doing so will give us a nice light (mindy)/heavy(Daisy)/Elite (Thought) structure with a 3,4,5 structure. Perhaps also allow D3 to also mount a couple of extra weapons.
 
T4 to T5 is only about a foot, and old art can pretty reasonably be used. My personal opinion on the Daisy is that at current there's not really much reason to use it rather than a Mindy with the wings taken off and painted green. A Daisy III, a tier higher and focused much more on ground operations, defensive capability, and firepower than the Mindy is, gives it a new niche and makes it pretty damn useful for Rikugun.
 
It could just grow in chonkiness rather than tall, though.
 
Chonkiness might actually imply a change in proportions. If it kept the same "shape" but just got all-around bigger we wouldn't need any new art, it's just a bigger PA than it used to be. Soban used the example of the Super Hornet, which is a pretty good one.
 
To me the Daisy just already "looks bigger." I was surprised it wasn't 5.
 
To me the Daisy just already "looks bigger." I was surprised it wasn't 5.
Click to expand...

Same.
I don't feel like there really is much of a difference between Ground and space operations in SARP. I don't think 'being ground focused' bring many if any advantages. However, it should be more defense focused (higher tier) and perhaps some extra weapons.

I think our goal should be characters being able to have a discussion about which one they prefer and the advantages and disadvantages with the real answer being 'it kind of depends on the situation'. I don't want it to be obvious which one is superior, which is, in my opinion, the way things are now.
 
A few more mounting points might be all that is needed to accomplish that. Allows the option to be both more offensive or more defensive based on the needs of the commander. I certainly think it could do with more ground speed.

Instead of the fusion thrusters to fly, maybe something akin to the Nepleslian Anti-Grav system to give it overall mobility. Or maybe just ignore gravity and inertial forces like the Mindy so they can walk on walls/zip around.

As for the main difference between the two is the Mindy has an aether generator/CFS/numerous expensive tech and the Daisy has a limited duration fusion reaction/no CFS/full of cheap stuff.
 
Defensive Vs offensive is an interesting point. Most ships stock Mindies, not Daisies, except dedicated landing craft. It makes one wonder which elements of the SAOY are what we would consider conventional 'marines'. Is there ever the case where a Sharie would deploy its Mindies as part of an invasion force? It begs the question, while Daisies would be stationed on the ground in places that need to be defended, how often is it the case that they are the power armours stocked on warships? If only Mindies are the PAs that the SAOY remembers to stock on its offensive craft, that sort of makes it more likely that the Mindies are present in environments where the strategy is to be offensive when it comes to PA combat. Daisies seem to be already garrisoned rather than deployed from ships for the most part, so the strategy is more defensive. It makes me feel like Mindies are 'marines' and Daisies are 'army', with one being more offensive than the other. Just something to think about, if only to increase the amount of Daisies stocked on conventional warships.
 
A more streamlined definition of Infantry/Marine would be nice to see. The only difference I see regarding Space "Infantry" is they can function like fragile fighter craft. But with fighters becoming more prominent, do they (space "infantry") really need to do that anymore?

Excluding that one aspect, Rikugun can learn shipboarding operations and defend ships just as well as anyone else. Call them Force Protection Units or something.
 
So, the whole point of the Daisy has pretty much always been being bigger/tougher/burlier than the Mindy. The Mindy was always the very sleek and small, and for a long time came with a height restriction that the Daisy didn't have as much of an issue with. Physically, the Daisy already is substantially larger than a Mindy, has storage pockets, has a big, solid shield, and already has quite a few hardpoints for weapons. The problem was, in the ten years since I made the Daisy II, there's been a lot of 'power creep' or 'ability creep' with the Mindy, and while they aren't as OP as they originally were *Cough Mindy 1F, Cough* they have gained a lot of the features that I had added to the Daisy II to differentiate it from both the Daisy I and the Mindy in general.

In Short, the Daisy II was designed to be tough, sturdy, easy to service, reliable in all environments, and capable of supporting people of varying height ranges. it was optimized for ground combat, lost the Aether power sources (I'm not sure how it is now but it used to be nearly impossible to be stealthy and use Aether at the same time) I also had the Gravimetric drive that the Daisy I had removed because of its complexity and for stylistic/flavor reasons (It's much cooler having the fusion thrusters than it is to just hover effortlessly).

I have been pondering a Daisy III for years, and while I'm not active as I used to be, I still feel a lot of attachment to the Daisy and the months of work I put into creating the Daisy II, so feel like any changes/updates should probably be at least shown to me before you guys do something crazy or make it just a Mindy but green. Which thankfully the conversation so far seems to be staying away from.
 
Ability creep has always been a problem, even subconsciously. People look at things that their thing doesn't have and try to find a way to add them in so that their thing packs more punch. It kind of detracts from variety in setting though. Having something with few weaknesses and many strengths isn't always good for RP. Not meaning to point any fingers, just in general this is sometimes the case.

I think that a lot of the drawbacks of Aether have disappeared over the years, often making it by far the obvious choice, at the detriment of other more flavourful options. I remember a time when aether weapons (I believe) had massive unintended collateral damage when used in an atmosphere. This isn't the case anymore.

I'm all for pushing the Daisy up a tier. It sounds like the most elegant solution.

On another note, I think Demi is onto something about where to draw the line between Infantry and Rikugun, with how oddly similar their training and ultimate use is. Especially in a world where naval deployment onto hostile planets is the only way to move troops. It's not like in reality where the Army tends to roll across land borders and the Marines tend to land off ships. There's no land borders in space, it's all effectively an ocean of sorts.

Plus, if you're defending or reinforcing a friendly position, you can always just use autoturrets or turrets rather than a specially designed defensive PA. It's probably more reliable and cheap too strategically. Just a thought.
 
Kai made a very good post.

I agree that the Daisy - especially a redo on the concept - should be Tier 5. Tier 5 was the spot I mentally reserved for Nepleslian power armors, but the Daisy was always kind of flavored to be close to that ballpark. I figure the only other KFY armor that's Tier 5 is the not-often-referenced M7 Sarah.

Thing is, if you make a Tier 5 Daisy and want to modernize it for the sake of making a good all-around power armor... it'll probably end up being a Mindy+1.

In my reality, the Mindy is Wes' favorite power armor, and he has a vested interest in it staying that way. So, if you make something for Yamatai that's going to besmirch his favored child... it's generally a bad time for all involved.

So, in my eyes, the only way to design a power armored suit that is desired to be mainstream and successful means working with the ecosystem's reality that the Mindy will be better. Or that, if the specialization is considerable, that the proposed suit has a disadvantage that makes it so that the Mindy remains the mainstream unit due to its convenience.

To me, that give and take could be like...

  • If you're a Medium-sized power armor... you may not fit through most doors. Could also have trouble fighting in constrained space.
    • The Mindy's smaller size allows it to be efficiently stored on a starship (where space is at a premium). The Mindy's smaller size helps it fit on doorways and airlocks. Also makes it easier to teleport within a constrained space, and be mobile despite tight quarters. Maybe the Mindy can also look good from the perspective of more miniaturized equipment = more state-of-the-art.
  • A medium power armor would also happen to be heavier...
    • and therefore could have, as a flaw, incompatibility with Yamatai's teleport tech.
  • Maybe, as a larger power armor, you need a much bigger power supply to run, along with all the extra gear you're supposed to be able to wield.
    • If your hypothetical medium power armor has 3 aether power supplies to the Mindy's single one, the Mindy may have an easier time being stealthy.
  • On the flip-side, maybe a rationale for adding another power armor to the very spacy-centric Star Army is cost-cutting measures, to perform roles that would be expensive/wasteful to give the Mindy. Garrison duty, 'boots-in-the-mud' ground superiority requirements, etc...
    • The first Daisy ran on a battery for the sake of being less expensive. The battery itself had good running time, but was unable to supply aether weapons or recharge the teleport tech on its own. This made the Daisy dependent on ammunition/supplies.
    • It also made the Daisy capable of operating in areas unfriendly to aether power, and stealthier in the context of power signature. The Daisy was also bulkier because it miniaturized its components to a lesser degree (meaning: more rugged, easier to repair)
The M7 Sarah succeeds at being a Mindy+1 because it's essentially a souped-up power armor made for the very few with an elite reputation. But this isn't a spot a mass-produced armor can occupy in comparison to the Mindy, because then... it wouldn't fit into the 'ecosystem'.

So, at the risk of overstating my case: to me, the successful Daisy is not the suit that is the most powerful, but rather the one that plays to its originally intended role as a less-expensive second-line unit; while remaining sufficiently useful for people to be glad its around. Let the Mindy enjoy its spotlight on the Hinomaru, and make the Daisy do the less glamorous back-breaking work. There's a charm in being the underdog and making the most of those limitations (win or lose).
 
Being an underdog grunt once before, there is zero charm to it (sure generals thought that though). lol

At this point, I guess we can see how things develop IC where it matters more. So don't forget I do have a thread for this in the Open RP section please.
 
Ah, but there are many different kind of stories.

There are stories of the lone knight in armor that goes face off against against an opponent. Siegfried and Fafnir, for instance. Certainly a deed that makes for a storied hero.

There are also stories of the young shepherd whom uses a sling and a wet piece of cheese to down a cyclops. Another storied confrontation, to the point where the phrase "David and Goliath" often communicates a scenario where the underdog triumphs.

We have stories in SARP as well. Some are about the well-equipped and state-of-the-art Plumeria wandering the universe and bringing the fight to those that wars against Yamatai. One would say that in most instances, a Plumeria and her crew present some of the best the Star Army has to offer, and that they are well prepared to handle such threats. The cream-of-the-crop, so to speak.

But there are also stories made with the scrappy Chiaki-class gunboat, whom we could say is far less capable to the Plumeria. But does that make the stories about the Chiaki-class and its crew something unworthy of being told? Does this deny stories just as great, if not possibly greater, than the Plumeria's crew?

How an underdog really looks like is a question of scale and perspective for the people planning plots and what equipment they would showcase. I've been a heavy user of the original Daisy, and I've written about that power armor being destroyed just as much as I've written about it overcoming the odds.

But in crafting a potential Daisy update, the main issue would be making it fit within the universe. That's not the province of IC roleplay.

I'll make this easy, though.

@Wes do you like the Daisy power armor?​
Do you think it's brought good things to SARP so far?​
How much is the Daisy actually needed in the Star Army?​
Do you want it to have more presence in your Star Army of Yamatai?​
What's your idea of ideal power level of the Daisy next to the Mindy?​
​
Brutal, selfish truth, please. As Hanako once said, it's better to swim with the current rather than against it... and your answers will best define the direction of the current. My understanding is that many things that are successful in SARP are usually near and dear to your heart. Knowing your whims related to power armor designs will best determine the required investments to be made to make something with lasting appeal.​
​
Thank you.​
 
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I've always been a bigger fan of the Daisy than the Mindy. It just looks cooler to me. In my head, it's always been the Daisy is for ground operations and the Mindy for space. I think that makes things pretty simple. As to upgrading the Daisy. I don't know. I honestly like it just the way it is.
 
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