Star Army

Star ArmyⓇ is a landmark of forum roleplaying. Opened in 2002, Star Army is like an internet clubhouse for people who love roleplaying, art, and worldbuilding. Anyone 18 or older may join for free. New members are welcome! Use the "Register" button below.

Note: This is a play-by-post RPG site. If you're looking for the tabletop miniatures wargame "5150: Star Army" instead, see Two Hour Wargames.

  • If you were supposed to get an email from the forum but didn't (e.g. to verify your account for registration), email Wes at [email protected] or talk to me on Discord for help. Sometimes the server hits our limit of emails we can send per hour.
  • Get in our Discord chat! Discord.gg/stararmy
  • 📅 September 2024 is YE 46.7 in the RP.

Damage Rating Conversion Chart

Status
Not open for further replies.
Evidently we have a communication breakdown. If I raise points and that your replies merely indicate that you feel you're not listened to, this discourse isn't worth continuing. This is one wall I weary of banging my head against.

I've made all my points already and I'm not going to repeat myself. I hate arguments carried out by endurance.
 
Last edited:
This isn't supposed to be an argument of endurance; I'd much rather have it be a discussion. The thing is, the points you've made aren't addressing my concerns, and in addition to that, some of the points made are against things I'm not even backing.
 
@CadetNewb -I might be reading this wrong... But wouldn't it be simple enough to apply the knowledge of how the different materials function to judge the difference between a standard Daisy II, a Yamataium Daisy II and a Yama-Dura Daisy? I mean simply describing them like that gives a distinct feel of three different units without the need for numbers to differentiate them.

To say it again from the looks of things most of the people in this thread don't want to deal with SP or DR. They just want to be able to say that a weapon kills something, or that a unit belongs to a certain class. It seems counter productive to hold something back that could benefit a large portion of the community because it doesn't provide the easily referenced number based system that you seem to be looking for Cadet.

My only goal is to improve the site, and from what has been said in here, and frequently elsewhere (apparently for years) the present DR system is broken, and what Fred is proposing seems to be agreeable to most who have taken the time to contribute to this thread. I would hope that at the very least we can move forward so that as we move ahead we can work towards addressing your concerns as we move forward instead of settling back into the old broken system because things aren't completely ideal.

I will admit to not completely understanding the needs that you wish to be addressed, however I am honestly scared of having this end up being another chapter of useless effort in excising the dysfunctional DR system.
 
I'm not saying I'm completely against it; I just won't help with the Narrative System as much since I want to make a numerical system to come after it. At this rate though, I might just try and do both at once.
 
Chipping in, once again, without any context because that's how I roll.

I've never quite liked the way the DR system works, and doesn't work. For example, the earliest implementation that I saw when I joined (in 2006) was a scale of 0 to 10, with 0 being flogging someone with a warm leaf of damp lettuce while 10 was a planet cracking Aether beam. Though, a devil in the detail of the system was that the damage "after ten seconds of constant exposure/attack". With pistols, which were DR 1 or 2, that meant shooting someone constantly for ten seconds.

I'm no expert but a gunfight against an unarmoured target is usually over before ten seconds passes. I doubt someone would stand out there for ten seconds without making an effort to dodge, find cover, shoot back, or otherwise find ways to disrupt the attacker aside from hoping that they miss a lot or pace their shooting (which may be an implication). On the attacking side, this doesn't take into account things such as character skill, anticipation of attack, surprise attacking, or hits to critical locations like the head or the joints. On face value, it seems clunky and off given the pace and writing of combat in SARP. A lot can happen in ten seconds.

Furthermore, if you have to punch above your weight in this old 0 to 10 point scale, it requires ten times the amount of firepower, then a hundred, then a thousand, so my DR 1 pistol against someone wearing DR 2 body armour is going to require lots and lots of shots. I need to count on him standing there for a minute and two thirds while I pepper him with lead, spending upwards of six or seven magazines of sidearm ammunition in the process. Its absurd!

I think I'm going to need a Beretta 92FS (DR 1 or 2 under old DR, PDR2 under new) with a bottomless magazine if I want to take out someone wearing DR 2 armour, which probably wouldn't even be powered. I might ask John Woo if he has one laying around. Might need to break out the doves so the target goes down in dramatic slow motion.

Then - solution!
We had the sense to iterate upwards and to compartmentalise the scale of things between Personnel, Armour and Starship scale damage and structure, which was a number that went upwards and outwards, and used multiples to denote changes in scale, so 1, 5, 10. It meant that everything slotted together neatly. Then Mecha and Frames came along, and they didn't fit anywhere neatly. They were capable of mounting more firepower in a smaller package. They weren't as big as starships, and bigger than power armour, but the way they were presented in roleplay didn't match neatly as their articles gave Armour-scale attacks. Thus, we have @CadetNewb's proposed system to bridge the gap! Double solution!

However, there's an underlying problem with a numbers based system.
All of these are guidelines subject to interpretation. For example, there's still no concrete way of determining DR for melee weapons/attacks and its left entirely dependent on GM interpretation. This, I find is the main failing: A lot of the DR system hinges on interpretation and enforcement of the rules, which can be ignored completely by the GM for the sake of story or because they disagree.

Of course, the leaps of logic won't be so bad as to go that a 10mm pistol can completely neutralise a power armour flat out, but if they're aiming for the head and hitting it from behind, its bound to make the target's head rattle inside the helmet with a CLUNK! It won't kill them, but it will rattle them - and that's my interpretation of what would happen.

Similarly, something like a Mindy dragging their aether sabre or a VOID dragging their fusion cutter along the hull of an enemy starship both have SDR damage. Both are intended to be melee weapons, but they have a DR number. Do certain sorts of melee weapons such as powered edges like Desmond Stroud's Machete get a DR number too? I could imagine it giving a power armour a difficult time, could either chop off a limb at the shoulder, or merely put a scratch in the plate of something-ium. Again, this is up to interpretation.

The system also falls over and becomes the dreaded 'submission tax' in the NTSE when other peoples' interpretations of the system doesn't line up with the submitters. Instead of being a guideline for assistance, it becomes a bandying-about subject, pushing things around, nerfing or buffing the item based on reviewer feedback rather than reaching a consensus.

I think it'd be best to add damage descriptions as to what happens - maybe list what the items work best on, and what they fail to work against. Hell, even add what happens when you slap someone/ram someone with the item.

Another suggestion, we need a list of materials in the setting, and their numbers or something. Yarvex, Stone Thread, Zesuaium, Durandium, Nerimum, Yamataiaum, Dura-Neri Alloy, Steel ... There's lots more.
 
I think that about sums it up Luca. It's precisely why Fred's system is a lot better than the current one we're using, but that doesn't mean its perfect. If you're managing fleets and trying to see which side would have an advantage where, or if you're a designer making a ship and all its specs, it's less to work with in that it can't solidly show a 'stat' in one category or another. Instead, it relies on the writer not only writing a lot, but hoping it's not misinterpreted deliberately or mistakingly by a reader, since the system only covers the broad category it falls into, and not how things in the same category compare to each other.
 
I'm not sure how to express it anymore. I'll give this one more try.

As far as the durability of materials went, SARP did fine before the DR system. Weapons mainly were what needed defining because there was a need for the people using them to know the nuances between them besides "They're all planet busters, even the Mindy aether saber-rifle". Nor was the DR system intended to be a tool which would be heavily employed for the benefit of submission designers. It's not a device for creation so much as it is a device for player guidance.

If the DR system had not been there, that concern would have largely not been there and descriptions would have been the order of the day. It's true that the DR system's hit point values (wrongly) help define a sense of resilience (through ablation; it would take 10 shots of a 2 SDR weapon to destroy a 20 SP ship).Therefore, I kind of see the concern for precision as a designer to be invalid. It is manufactured need upon something which - if pulled out of the equation - becomes largely irrelevant.

The nuance between a 8 SP and a 10 SP value, once in a GM's hands, is nebulously interpreted at best. The 2 SP thing is a fine difference, but it's going to play little actual role in a GM deciding how much punishment a player's power armor is going to actually take. What is more evocative is the property of said materials: durandium is armor, and is fairly light; Yama-dura alloy is somewhat heavier but carries across some qualities of yamataium without the flaw; yamataium is even heavier regenerative memory metal, but those same regenerative properties make it hard to manufacture finer components (so it's reserved for blunter applications like starship armored hulls or structural supports, since its regenerative properties will always round the edges of smaller components, making it impractical for finely-assembled armor segments on Yamataian power armor); whereas Zesuaium as a vast cornupia of features that create its hallmark to fame (in fact, zesuaium's features mark more how amazing it is rather than any arbitrary multiplier).
 
Last edited:
@Fred

I'm sorry it's been almost a week, but you've actually laid out your Narrative System clearly to be honest. I understand what you're saying about it, but you're misunderstanding the stuff I've been suggesting. You're correct that 8 SP and 10 SP can have little to no bearing on a GM's decision, but it serves as an OOC method of giving weapons and armor character as well, something that's important to people making the tech, and the players when they decide between one thing and another. We can pad the article as much as we want, but with no point of reference to draw off of, any item in the same category would have a hard time making itself distinct without having to resort to specifically saying it's so-and-so in comparison to another. Hypothetically, just how would we know for certain that the LASR-47 hits harder than the LASR-16 without explicitly saying so for an example?

That's why I suggested a Numerical System to act as a secondary to the Narrative One to give it more depth. Basically have it piggyback on the new system. Its purpose isn't to act as Hit Points, but to compare items within the same class with each other. Is one slightly better or worse than the other? That won't matter to a GM, but it does to players, and adds depth to the setting. If whatever numbers it uses happens to be good enough to act as an HP system, that's extra flexibility for those that want to use it in that manner, but that's just not the objective.
 
Now you're the one that hasn't been reading what I wrote.

You pine for the precision of a numerical system, but only because all you've known so far is a numerical system. Your need exist because the present DR system is your frame of reference. If the numbers had been thrown out the window, they would've never been relevant.

Besides, you're angsting over it too much. Right now, what differentiates an ADR3 weapon from another? Oh, both have the same value, but how can you tell beyond text description which is actually the strongest? You can't precisely. So, what's next? Decimals? We'll judge one such weapon to be ADR3.4 and the other ADR3.7?

That pretty much seems the basis for your argument... which I find pretty doubtful to peer at considering how creatures/vehicles effectively shouldn't have hitpoints and that their use ought to be considered on individual basis.

How precise is precise? And how much of that precision gets wasted? Honestly, this seems to be our difference of opinion. You wanting to slap a numerical system on top of something that's meant to forego it is, in my opinion, really against purpose and just repeats the mistakes that have made the flaws of the current DR system.
 
Last edited:
Addressing the example you used @CadetNewb: One would be able to tell that the LASR-47 was more powerful than the LASR-16 by reading that the LASR-47 model had say: A larger caliber, a higher round velocity, a higher rate of fire, or any number of tweaks using tech specific to the setting that might make one model function differently than another.

Even with some of the older tech that wasn't overly fleshed out I can not think of an example of two weapons that are difficult to tell the effectiveness apart going by the text.

For example the WickedArms GP-12 is PDR4 as is the Origin SGAR/Standard General Assault Rifle. Neither of these weapons are differentiated by SP values or DR identity, however I can tell that they function in wildly different ways. To further elaborate it is clear that one being a phased pulse rifle works by tearing apart molecular bonds of the target, while the other is a laser weapon that would function by transferring energy to a target with the intent of burning holes in whatever it shot. Additionally differentiating the weapons the ranges differ with the GP-12 having three times the range of the SGAR.

Given that they both have 50 round batteries they have that in common, however a SGAR's power cell will last longer as it has a lower rate of fire than the GP-12.

The point of all of this is that two systems with the same 'stats' have different 'personalities' which would allow a player to choose based on their tastes and needs. Neither of which rely on an additional numerical system such as SP to differentiate them.

To provide another set of examples of how the numerical systems do not greatly impact the identity of equipment; an Origin Impulse PA has the same SP as a DAISY II. As well an Origin Ashigaru and a Lorath Winter have the same SP but function in drastically different ways. I doubt that a players would assume that by reading the articles that either of those systems would be at all similar even though at the moment they share the same SP.

As it stands the fluff of the articles, the written portion which the author puts most of their effort into does a perfect job of differentiating different systems in the setting and I honestly doubt most players would make their decisions based on the DR or SP value.
 
Last edited:
Oh. Shit.

That feeling when you realize that you've been thinking of things in terms of the DR system for so long, you couldn't think outside of it anymore. That feeling when you realize that the DR rating of something often mattered more than the details that actually give something its character. That feeling when it took Eistheid breaking it down and going back to the basics for you to get it again. That feeling when you get red pilled.

The current DR system really needs to go die in a ditch.
 
The new thing is as presented in my first post in this thread.

I also sought help due to the opinion that the article was not user-friendly. The opinions I've had so far spun around "I get it". In which case, I could very well just NTSE submit it in a more official capacity and see what the reviewers would have to say about it.
 
Well, I could go ahead and give a shot at hammering out the article if you'd like Fred. It's just that I'm also working on several other things at once too, so progress is probably going to be pretty slow.
 
https://wiki.stararmy.com/doku.php?id=guide:damage_rating

What the flying fuck does threshold mean? I mean, you told me but it isn't on the article anywhere indicating it. The article literally starts talking about thresholds and makes zero attempt to explain what they're for. The article is FULL of holes where this information could be indicated and flat out isn't under the assumption people just already know.

You know what? I'm going to specifically explain what the goddamn threshold is on the wiki because nobody else has done it yet. Seriously, this system is been in place for how long and it hasn't been explained? That's disgraceful. Worse, the entire way the article is written is not repeating familiar language to the reader meaning they have to know you meant the same thing when you change words.

Come on guys, you have to be explicit, specific and repeat known blocks of language to ensure a frame of reference. This is fucking English Language 101.

The biggest problem of this whole mess is the moment you start introducing armor modifiers and speed modifiers it turns into D&D bullshit which is exactly the thing players come here to avoid, looking for free. form. roleplay.

What was meant to be a very simple guideline (so GMs know what something can withstand) in the past became an overly complex dickshow of players and nations waving around points in a race to the top before "the grand nerf" happened.

I think the existing damage system is formulate of the problem, not indicative: I literally cannot remember the last time I used the damage system in any of my roleplay beyond "okay, which is stronger" and even then only as a very loose guideline.

Even when making stuff this stuff makes me dry-wretch even having to think about and I pass it onto other people because it bores me, its boring and I'm having a boring time with it -- and the entire point of roleplay on every level is to be entertaining.

I am WAY more interested in the mechanism of a gun and its look than how much damage it does yet I have to be careful about who I ask for damage recommendations because there's people on every side nodding to nerf because players and GMs have in the past have been incredibly abusive with things.

The whole system is too complex and isn't rewarding enough.

This shit isn't fun, guys.

Also, I think I got lost on the way to to the damage rating discussion thread. Do you know where it is?
 
Last edited:
You're a little late to raise this point, Osaka. x_x

Threshold is the shields 'damage threshold'. Even if the shield energy reserves are plentiful, it doesn't mean that it will block attacks entirely.

Here's an example:
Ship A:
Weaponry: SDR1 turret, SDR 3 particle cannon, SDR5 torpedo
Ship B:
Hull 30SP, Shields 30SP (threshold 3)

Ship A fires turret at Ship B.
Ship B's shields entirely absorb the attack. The shield SP is reduced to 29.

Ship A fired particle cannon at Ship B.
Ship B's shield still just barely manage to protect the ship from the attack. Shield SP are reduced to 26.

Ship A fires a torpedo at Ship B.
Ship B's shields are not made to handle quite so much punishment. The torpedo's potential damage goes over that protection threshold. But still, the shield can mitigate some of the damage. Due to Threshold 3, the shield absorbs 3 of the incoming 5SDR. Shield SP are reduced to 23. 2SDR however filter through (5SDR -3threshold = 2) and reduce Ship B's Hull to 28SP.

And, yes, while your comments are belated, I agree. While I don't think it's incomprehensible, it's not intuitive to the kind of roleplay we do here. Hence why I was lobbying for change.

New proposed version on my part was here:
https://wiki.stararmy.com/doku.php?id=fred_s_damage_rating_revision

I'm unsure of if the article is reader-friendly, though.
 
1. You need to break armor into categories. I just did it for you for legibility.

2. Lethality needs consistency with other charts: does [WEAPON CLASS] correspond to [CLASS]? You need to be very very specific: You make it even more confusing by using the term [SCALE] instead of [WEAPON CLASS] under the SCALE heading which further obsfuricates things (meaning players now have to make a link between three things which are described using different language).

3. You need to swap tentative examples for one example of armor types down one column and another of weapon types, so you not only get the quality of what weapons fit the same score but which types either defend or are effective against one another for a SENSE of scale which also serves to aid the non-quantified loose-guideline feel the SARP goes for. The direct comparative would be a big help.

4. I'll write the rest when I'm ready.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
RPG-D RPGfix
Back
Top