Dealing with Interdependency

[Soban]

@Andrew[/USER] and I were talking on discord about some recent RP that I somewhat liked and didn't see a problem with and he did. I'm going to paraphrase (hopefully correctly) what I think the core of the problem he was was. "I've worked too hard on my plots for some rando to come in and police me and throw a huge wrench into my plans." That's something I can understand, even if I'm not sure I agree with the application.

So part of the issue is an interaction between Player's Rights and Gamemaster's Rights. Gamemasters have a right to certain expectations including but not limited to "A Game Master has the right to control NPCs within his plot" and "A Game Master has the right to refuse any player or player character for any reasonable reason". Players have rights as well including but not limited to "I have the right to ask for a retcon or edit of the last RP session, if I feel my character was played incorrectly or left out at a vital time. ... Note: Player rights generally do not protect characters from bad things happening to them, including injury or death, or from criminal charges stemming from illegal actions (including deserting the military)."

We also have characters who have extensive knowledge/authority over places and people. For example, say the Governor of a planet called X who is played by let's say a fictional George. (I don't think we have any Georges around at the moment). We also have a fictional Gamemaster named Michael who is running a plot that George's not a part of (this makes it simpler then if he is). Planet X happens to be where part of the plot is set where a giant dragon attacks the burns down part of a city. (Not realistic for SARP right now, but the point is to abstract it a bit.) The Governor of Planet X is someone who should probably be involved in reacting to these circumstances. Normally, George and Michael should be able to talk and work something out between them. However, this isn't always the case.

The related case is one where George is in Michael's plot and sees an opening for another character they have to be a part of things.

The fact is that plots of importance are going to impact other parts of the setting. I'm writing one right now that I hope is going to change things in certain ways across the whole setting. Often, they will impact parts of the setting that a game master doesn't have control over.

Now the vast majority of the time, it's an 'oh, something happened over there'. It's not something they would know about or be able to interact with in time to matter to the plot. However, that's not always the case. especially if something happens over days or months.

A part of the problem is Interdependency. It means that basically everyone has fingers in everyone else's pie. If you decide to write about an invasion of a system, the admiral of the fleet (who may not be a part of your plot) is going to want to know about it and be able to do something about it.

The point of this is to increase the number of roleplay opportunities between people. The problem is that this also creates a lot more opportunities for people to have good reasons to bring someone in who's not currently involved in the plot but perhaps should be given what is happening.

Far as I can tell, this is what Andrew thinks is a problem. A part of me agrees with him. I think if we want to have interdendantcy to be a thing, we have to have a solution. A way for Gamemasters to not have their plots upended by people coming in from outside of it AND for players to not have their characters look like idiots for not reacting to something they should have.

Personally, I'm rather neutral on Interdependency being a thing. I think having things being siloed helps with this problem. My original perspective on my character's duties were that unless it happened in their area of responsibility, they didn't have to do much about it. However, interdependency means much larger areas of responsibility that often overlap with others.

So how do we solve it? I'm not 100% sure. If it were me, I'd probably go back to where things are more siloed. Basically, the Army has it's areas being defined mainly by where they are. With 'outside the empire' being big and unexplored and everyone able to send ships there to have adventures. The Empire as a whole being a very Federal system where the vast majority of the time it's local laws and such that apply and each is the domain of the people who are in charge of it.

Another option would give communications a speed limit so it's harder to respond to something if you are out of the system.

I hope I've articulated the problem and my thoughts on it well.

 

[Yuuki]

Nothing should ever be organizationally structured in a way that anyone has a character who has any reason or impetus to get involved with another plot. If your character has an IC reason to do so, it is an OOC organizational structure issue. Playing a Taishō has one purpose and one purpose only: to run plots in that fleet or division, and none other. This is my official stance as FM of Yamatai.

 

[Soban]

Ok, that's nice, but that's not the sole role of a Taisho. Their fleets (and thus they) have crosscutting responsibilities which is, by my understanding, something that @Wes wants.

 

[Yuuki]

It's the sole reason for a player controlling one, not the sole reason for them existing.

 

[Soban]

If a player controls a fleet they are responsible for whatever that fleet does. The have characters who control them. Something not being done that they should do is kind of important and reflects on that character in strongly negative ways that player may not want.

 

[Yuuki]

And it is my stance that if a character not involved with the GM's plot, unless otherwise empowered by setting and theme staff has "they should do" or suffer negative consequences is an ICly valid thing, then it is symptomatic of a structural/organizational OOC/Setting issue that needs to be resolved.

A Taisho is a plot device, not a vanity plate. You can contribute meaningful, significant change to the setting in any way without one through setting submissions and approved roleplay. Reducing Wes's administrative overhead does not require playing a Taisho. Developing Star Army of Yamatai setting elements does not require playing a Taisho. Taishos make PLAYERS move by giving reasons for RP to happen in the form of orders and strategy. Anything else in the setting can be done without playing one.

Furthermore
The only reason to stop a GM from doing anything in their own plot is conflict with canon, andthat is an OOC-only affair, and it is the job of the Setting Manager and relevant Faction Managers to enforce, so if something cannot be resolved with a word in private to the GM, then the relevant FM is your next point of contact. In no circumstances whatsoever will I again tolerate one of my faction's GMs to be ICly interfered with by a character not approved for that plot unless the Setting Manager or a Faction Manager has a very good reason to do it, unless that GM consented to it and approved that character be brought in. Any IC justification to the contrary stems entirely from an OOC issue that needs remedied, and is a separate matter to be dealt with.

Unless otherwise overruled by Wes this is now my final official policy for Yamatai.

 

[Andrew]

Honestly, the fact that this has even come into question now shows me that the system has become broken. Part of what is attractive about SARP has always been the ability to be a GM, and run your own plots; in time from a ship to a few ships and maybe even a fleet someday. My Taisho reports to Yui, not the ethics department in quadrant 5 they might decide to respond unneeded if I've offended the mold on deck 6.

It breaks my heart as someone who despite challenges has always come back here full of hope trying to write a good story. Yamatai is pretty much unrecognizable, I get trash in my DM for playing my character according to her history and views, third-party woes, and temper tantrums because I didn't help build someone's house of cards. Just not for me. Hopefully, something will open up in this setting that is not all about people forcing their OOC liberal views into the RP and onto other people. I came to RP Star Army, not heaps of red tape, bureaucracy, etc.

Since I got back all I've seen are arguments over how this section you have to contact this person and this belongs to that person. It is fine to have your little section of the pie but doing that with fleet-wide stuff that affects everyone? limits GMs? What about my piece of the pie? You police it now too.

As I see it I'm faced with a few choices here, Make a faction that isn't full of people who just want to change everything to fit their political views and/or retire my characters back to the MCS where they can enshrine and fend off the virus that is affecting the rest of the empire and/or just outright hand it all to Yuuki and be done with it.

 

[Deleted member 6093]

Honestly, the fact that this has even come into question now shows me that the system has become broken. Part of what is attractive about SARP has always been the ability to be a GM, and run your own plots; in time from a ship to a few ships and maybe even a fleet someday. My Taisho reports to Yui, not the ethics department in quadrant 5 they might decide to respond unneeded if I've offended the mold on deck 6.

It breaks my heart as someone who despite challenges has always come back here full of hope trying to write a good story. Yamatai is pretty much unrecognizable, I get trash in my DM for playing my character according to her history and views, third-party woes, and temper tantrums because I didn't help build someone's house of cards. Just not for me. Hopefully, something will open up in this setting that is not all about people forcing their OOC liberal views into the RP and onto other people. I came to RP Star Army, not heaps of red tape, bureaucracy, etc.

Since I got back all I've seen are arguments over how this section you have to contact this person and this belongs to that person. It is fine to have your little section of the pie but doing that with fleet-wide stuff that affects everyone? limits GMs? What about my piece of the pie? You police it now too.

As I see it I'm faced with a few choices here, Make a faction that isn't full of people who just want to change everything to fit their political views and/or retire my characters back to the MCS where they can enshrine and fend off the virus that is affecting the rest of the empire and/or just outright hand it all to Yuuki and be done with it.

I really don't want to see you leave, but I agree with you on your core tenets.

As for yamatai, I think that's a question to be brought up with @Wes, when he sees this; it's definitely a valid concern, and I understand the issues that the liberalisation of yamatai is causing.

A lot of it is motivated heavily by OOC motives, and it seems more superficial now than anything.

I think we need to return to ye olde ways of having fun plots, rather than focusing on political nitty gritty.

Ultimately Yam should be a backdrop for rp's to happen, not a big bureaucracy. This is an RP, not a MILSIM. It doesen't matter what is "realistic" or "reasonable" for characters, fleets, etc as long as people are having fun.

The big argument yesterday should never have happened. But at the same time, it was due to a huge misunderstanding/failure to stop and reconsider on everyone's part. I agree that people shouldn't barge in to plots. Thats just unacceptable. Hijacking someone else's rp because "it makes sense" is disrespectful and crass.

HOWEVER, this does not mean there cannot be things RP'd out in a DIFFERENT thread, still relating to what happened. It doesn't interrupt the GM, and still gives the chance to involve characters that would otherwise be not allowed.

Old yam, in my opinion, had much more flavour and depth than this (forgive my language) proto-liberalist conservative hellhole of a state. Yam has strayed from it's original schema due to lack of oversight and frivolous additions of non-relevant content. It's high time we looked through yam's stuff and culled the unimportant/non-theme-fitting articles.

 

[Deleted member 6093]

Furthermore
The only reason to stop a GM from doing anything in their own plot is conflict with canon, and that is an OOC-only affair, and it is the job of the Setting Manager and relevant Faction Managers to enforce, so if something cannot be resolved with a word in private to the GM, then the relevant FM is your next point of contact. In no circumstances whatsoever will I again tolerate one of my faction's GMs to be ICly interfered with by a character not approved for that plot unless the Setting Manager or a Faction Manager has a very good reason to do it, unless that GM consented to it and approved that character be brought in. Any IC justification to the contrary stems entirely from an OOC issue that needs remedied, and is a separate matter to be dealt with.

Unless otherwise overruled by Wes this is now my final official policy for Yamatai.

This will be my FINAL policy as well. In fact, it should be a rule.

 

[Ametheliana]

Old yam, in my opinion, had much more flavour and depth than this (forgive my language) proto-liberalist conservative hellhole of a state. Yam has strayed from it's original schema due to lack of oversight and frivolous additions of non-relevant content. It's high time we looked through yam's stuff and culled the unimportant/non-theme-fitting articles.

 

[Deleted member 6093]

*shrug* i just read some of the old RP and agree with andrew
\

 

[Ametheliana]

Sorry but I actively enjoy old Yam so I'm wondering how you don't see the path from there to here.What specifically irks you? What old RP?? Because it's probably ALWAYS been there, you just are a) new I'm so sorry or b) have been around long enough to learn not to look at other people's RP/Wes' Yam canon. I LOVE Yamatai and I also LOVE Nepleslia so maybe try looking at the full scope of the sector to appreciate just one part of it? Deep dive that history, forum search "Hinosami" and have a great night, these things are easy and free to learn to love the setting as is.

ANYWAY, Yuuki makes good points about Taishos. You don't need to play SAINT Director to RP and update its history, as I've shown. The site had a great NPCable SAINT Director and this aforementioned vying for power ousted them, if past events are recollected. Taking out helpful creators takes out the love.

 

[Deleted member 6093]

Sorry but I actively enjoy old Yam so I'm wondering how you don't see the path from there to here.What specifically irks you? What old RP?? Because it's probably ALWAYS been there, you just are a) new I'm so sorry or b) have been around long enough to learn not to look at other people's RP/Wes' Yam canon. I LOVE Yamatai and I also LOVE Nepleslia so maybe try looking at the full scope of the sector to appreciate just one part of it? Deep dive that history, forum search "Hinosami" and have a great night, these things are easy and free to learn to love the setting as is.

ANYWAY, Yuuki makes good points about Taishos. You don't need to play SAINT Director to RP and update its history, as I've shown. The site had a great NPCable SAINT Director and this aforementioned vying for power ousted them, if past events are recollected. Taking out helpful creators takes out the love.

I think all the political bickering has led to a lack of spice in yamatai. From my reading of Old Yam stuff, I've found that a lot of the New-Yam stuff revolvees around what andrew said, "yamatai doesn't seem like yamatai anymore" and I think that's fair. People are taking their OOC values and forcing it on the faction Icly.

 

[Ametheliana]

For sure. I mean even Irim is pointing out clutter in Yamatai so even the founder's characters are ICly noting what you do. But he doesn't have your positives, only your negatives. What do you LOVE about Yamatai?

I'll go first: you can have sex in the streets during the daytime and chewing gum and spitting it out on the street could get you in trouble
(edit) I know not everyone's going to have that kind of example. What is something foundational you like about Yamatai that is being stifled by something going on? What do you guys want to keep strong here?

 

[Ethereal]

not all about people forcing their OOC liberal views into the RP and onto other people

I know this is about me and I'd just like to say that your definition of liberal is different than the ones in the rest of the world. I don't have any liberal views in the American sense. I'm not even remotely a leftist. The point of that RP, Andrew, is to point out that Yamatai is made up of a dozen different nations and cultures that came under its belt AFTER they previously had their own politics and beliefs. I don't understand how there's this assertion that everyone in Yamatai holds exactly the same system of beliefs when it's literally impossible for that to be the case when there are countless divergent culture articles from the species, suzerainties and civilisations that are inside Yamatai. The point of my RP is to explore that. Wes has explicitly said there's no mind control or indoctrination in Yamatai, so there's no earthly way that everyone holds exactly the same views. That's so obvious as to be glaring. Even Wes was happy to see political parties and said good job for making one, so I really don't see where your feet are grounded on this one. I mean literally the fact that there are terrorists bombing the ex-UOC shows that there's a diversity of beliefs in setting, and that's in your own corner of the setting.

 

[Ethereal]

Also I'm just going to ask how this situation would resolve:

A SAINT officer on a plotship inside a Fleet decides to call back to SAINT about an issue, say one of the other PCs is dealing intelligence to the enemy in JPs that are happening on the plotship.

The Captain notices and says they're handling it, but brush it off, maybe it's not on the GM's priorities. Word gets out that the Fleet is crewed with people who are selling secrets to the enemy and that SAINT is aware but nothing is happening.

How do you resolve this?

On one hand, the plotship GM supposedly has total sanctity as to how to deal with what's happening on their ship. However, now their actions are inflicting disrepute on the Fleet plot, perhaps angering Yui. Also, SAINT have knowledge of a traitor selling their intel but despite all their supposed independence from standard command are unable to do anything about it.

Which comes first, who has what claim to what RP? This kind of independency of RP has always had the potential to happen and likely has in the past, it's just that people are hyper aware nowadays for some reason.

How would each of you resolve this?

 

[Andrew]

Well step 1, you have a conversation in a public thread asking the other GM to get involved and hear their plot plan out. It is not your place to decide what happens in other people's plotlines. If something needs to be addressed, Yui/Wes makes the call. It's about OOC Communication not just you injecting yourself because you feel it's justified.

 

[Andrew]

Furthermore, it is up to Wes ultimately. Then also if he pulls his Faction Managers in, as well as the GM involved. Not you. You're not the plot police.