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Defense of Personal Freedoms

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Rizzo

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I'll kick this off with a rewording of my previous argument, it seems like Yamatai is really wanting to inhibit free trade lately and is now pushing a treaty that is dooming IC corporations to government control. The IRC is discussing the future of corporations without any corporate representationat all! Now the empire threatens to destroy a corporation simply for being "problematic"? How could a corporation even be aware of this if they have no say in their own future?!

The members that wish to create seem to gravitate toward corporations and now they are going to be dominated and controlled by means of an IC meeting none but the elite are invited to. How one sided! Tell me something, is personal freedom so valueless so as to justify a small group of privileged people determining the uniformity of IC corporations? HOW STUPID! This will accomplish nothing but the removal of the individuality and uniqueness of these creations and the alienation of the players that made them.

Consider this treaty proposal:
  • Businesses must declare a home nation that they are based out of.(Why? Does it really matter as long as taxes are paid?)
  • Businesses must operate according to the laws of their home nations.(No shit, they have to operate according the laws of wherever they operate. This is just a basic fact of being inside a border.)
  • Businesses must be licensed by the home nation to legally operate.(Naturally.)
    • Businesses can also obtain licenses to operate in other friendly nations.(put a pin here, this is where international trade fails.)
  • Business licenses may not be issued to businesses who claim to be independent (“rogue corporations”)(And what makes them rogue? If you don't want to do business with them just DON'T DO BUSINESS WITH THEM. Why make everyone else have to do what you would?)
  • Businesses must do their financial transactions in the currency of their home nation.(and here we have it folks, no more international trade! Because after all if NAM and Second Chance Salvage want to trade neither can accept each others currency. So there we have it, isolationism now reigns king!)
There is absolutely nothing wrong with our current state of businesses operating so why pick on the players who have corporations? It's unnecessary, laissez-faire.
 
Yamatai is simply suggesting that nations refuse to do business with corporations that are illegal by way of operating outside of the laws of nations.

In real life, all corporations are established under the laws of some nation, and nations typically require some sort of business license to operate. For example, the Fisher Pen Company, which makes cool Astronaut pens, is an American corporation operating under American law. It doesn't claim to be "independent" because its pens are sold in multiple countries. Or if I ever wanted to make Star Army into some sort of cosplay business or something, I would need to apply for a business license with the state of Georgia. These sorts of standards should apply in Star Army's universe too.

To put it another way, corporations who won't follow a nation's laws shouldn't be welcome to do any business in those nations. Currently if a business has no "home nation" then there's no one to hold them accountable.

Also, on the OOC side, it closes a "loophole" where people have been basically backdooring their way into being psuedo-FMs by making a bunch of corporate articles and claiming their corporation is "independent" primarily so that they don't have to answer to the actual FMs when they're submitting articles in the Setting Submissions forum.
 
Just saw this, so I have two questions.

1. Can corps move out to their own little planet while still operating under national laws without being listed as rogue?

2. When i had horizon approved it was and still is listed as independent but operates out of uso. With what you said about corps being pseudo fms does this mean i need zack or another uso fm to sign off on any horizon gear we make even when it’s just another product?

I’d like to know so we can act correctly in the future
 
1. It would depend on the laws of the nation. I know when Origin expanded to the unclaimed Ake system, the YSE basically claimed it as Yamataian because of that, and it sent Star Army ships up there to start guarding the new Yamataian territory. But probably, yeah.

2. I would like to see the FMs post FM approvals. We've seen a lot of people listing things that aren't playable factions in the "faction" field of the submission form lately, which is not really the way it was intended to work.
 
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I think for the OOC issue, a independent simi-FM might work better. ICly, I think that the treaty should be more along the lines of 'we agree that specific things can/should be prosecuted even if they happen in international space.' Ex. You can't build a transuniveral teleporter or violate certain 'sapiant rights' even if you are in international space.
 
I'm gonna keep out of this for now since I agree with both sides to some extent - or at least see their points.

@club24 it should be near-impossible for a corporation to claim territory outside borders for themselves really. By doing so, you're essentially declaring yourself a sovereign entity unless you immediately turn it over to the subordination of your national body. Think of it in IRL terms, if Walmart claimed a swathe of Antarctica it would never fly, since they'd be pretty much declaring that anyone goes there is under their rules which is essentially national sovereignty. If your nation says it's cool then go for it but you couldn't exactly run it like an autonomous province since that would be the nation ceding some of their political control to you. Nor could you control immigration, trade, tax, who has work rights and such, as those are national prerogatives. You wouldn't really get much by being the one who "claimed" it, honestly. At least in my opinion, I could be wholly wrong here, basing things on IRL when sometimes it doesn't carry to SARP ><

@Soban take a glance at this, it might clear up some of your questions about international space.
 
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on the OOC side, it closes a "loophole" where people have been basically backdooring their way into being psuedo-FMs by making a bunch of corporate articles and claiming their corporation is "independent" primarily so that they don't have to answer to the actual FMs when they're submitting articles in the Setting Submissions forum.
So why does a Corp need FM approval for stuff that makes no difference to a faction? If it really needs an FM approval the moderators are going to tag the necessary FM. Additionally I already see a new loophole in this that I'm prepared to abuse the crap out of just to make a point, the point being that throwing more rules at a problem is unnecessary and obnoxious. It doesn't fix problems, it simply creates different ones. Running the discussion for these absurd rules in an IC thread in which the people who are actually affected have completely no input doesn't bring people together, it divides.

To put it another way, corporations who won't follow a nation's laws shouldn't be welcome to do any business in those nations. Currently if a business has no "home nation" then there's no one to hold them accountable.
Who cares? They're not your problem. Why would anyone care about a corp that breaks YOUR law outside of your jurisdiction. That's not illegal unless you are presuming the whole galaxy belongs to your faction and at that point were fostering a delusion.
It really is this simple. If they harm your citizens, kill them. If they don't, leave it alone.

And none if this even touches on the fact that under this treaty corporations can't even do business without breaking the law! Seriously, if the government chooses to hold a gun to a corps proverbial head and demand that they only use KS, guess what, international trade is now impossible.
 
What if corporations, fearing government control, lobby said government to be hands-the-f-off unless they want their citizens to no longer have nice things?

Or just move to USO. Their corporate law structure probably works like the rest of their justice system.
 
I think the operating with only their registered faction thing can be changed. In real life theres common trade value. Oil and trade are paid for in the most powerful currency; The dollar. Being Yamatai is a the biggest it would make more sense for international trade to be done in KS.

I also think declaring independent business as pirates and refusing to business with them or downright taking them down for not paying taxes... This seems like something a rich corporation would totally do to avoid overzealous taxing and have freedom of independence to trade with who they want without a faction refusing to do business with them because they dont like Nepleslia, Or Uso, Etc. the faction they are forced to be registered to. And its totally something i was planning on doing in the future with an indipendant station, Hence my check on how international space works in Sarp. But i dont want my endeavors to eventually end up with a Fleet from Faction-X showing up because i wanted to build a station in the middle of nowhere near two factions.


Im perfectly ok with businesses registering under a faction they pay taxes to, but i dont think it should be enforced because i think rouge traders are 100% a sarp thing that shouldn't be put down...

(Typed from mobile sorry for botched response.)
 
I think the operating with only their registered faction thing can be changed. In real life theres common trade value. Oil and trade are paid for in the most powerful currency; The dollar. Being Yamatai is a the biggest it would make more sense for international trade to be done in KS.

I also think declaring independent business as pirates and refusing to business with them or downright taking them down for not paying taxes... This seems like something a rich corporation would totally do to avoid overzealous taxing and have freedom of independence to trade with who they want without a faction refusing to do business with them because they dont like Nepleslia, Or Uso, Etc. the faction they are forced to be registered to. And its totally something i was planning on doing in the future with an indipendant station, Hence my check on how international space works in Sarp. But i dont want my endeavors to eventually end up with a Fleet from Faction-X showing up because i wanted to build a station in the middle of nowhere near two factions.


Im perfectly ok with businesses registering under a faction they pay taxes to, but i dont think it should be enforced because i think rouge traders are 100% a sarp thing that shouldn't be put down...

(Typed from mobile sorry for botched response.)
Most trade is already done in KS anyway; or in DA. This is why most articles and such, when submitted, carry a value printed in one or both of those.

Personally, I wish we didn't have a bajillion currencies getting used because a lot of them are boring and just forcing more math onto my daily schedule.

But c'est la vie.

Now, in my opinion; every corporation should be registered to a faction. This is because corporations aren't factions; the closest any of them came to being such was Origin... and honestly, it wasn't MUCH of one (no offense intended toward @Kai). Registering to a nation makes plenty of sense considering you're going to need to trade in a consistent currency of some kind to maintain a value in your company's assets; if you've got your money spread out to all the types of currency you might be flexible but it could equally backfire if two nations stop acknowledging another and allowing exchange of their currency.

I know that there's folk who enjoy the idea of a completely independent from law corp, but in my observation it tends to just cause drama and issues when a company goes off the rails and starts doing things that OOCly aren't allowed but get to start going "But IC I'm independent so NEENERNEENERNEENER" and then forcing things to escalate.

The rules/laws/things/whatever do need to be laxed, but they're not in the wrong spirit; there's definitely a problem with companies/corps essentially having their content creators try to wrestle more control because they want to run it like a faction... but they're not putting in the work in 99% of the case to make their corporation deserve the rights to be a faction. Rather than completely bashing this for what it does IC (not saying you are, Char), all of us should look at the OOC concerns and see if we can make some middlegrounds.
 
It always interest me when people start saying they don't want Corps to have to register under a faction. The only downside to that from an OOC prospective is that you would need FM approval for your product. ICly nothing really changes, because no one really plays the politics of big business in setting anyway. However you get a bunch of benefits, like protect and grants ICly, and OOCly it helps you get more people who are interested in keeping your passion project a float and relevant.

If you're worried that you would have difficulty getting FM approval for your stuff, then you either 1, picked the wrong faction for your company (like trying to make a chewing gum company in yamatai) or 2, your stuff was questionable in regards to the rules in the first place. Like seriously, do you think any FM is going to spend their time trying to come up with excuses to block you from submitting something just because they can? As long as they don't feel that it'll have repercussions on their faction or other assets, and that it's site legal they will approve. Just like the NTSE, FMs can be disciplined for being jerks, so no one is going to risk losing privileges you have to prove you can handle, just to troll.
 
Taisho Yui, who had recently arrived, clarified "I believe the intent of requiring corporations to operate in their home nation's currency is to require the use of nationally-run currency exchanges and to block the use of alternate currencies like 'electronic coins' such as the Arcmark."

"On a subject related to having corporations under a national flag, the Star Army will also be requiring starships entering Yamataian territory to operate under the flag of a friendly nation. Increasingly we are seeing Kuvexian-aligned merchants, private military corporations, illegal alien salvagers, and colony ships full of highly-reproductive poverty-stricken bug-men attempting to enter our space. It is the Star Army's suggestion that all of our nations imminently begin requiring a visa, passport, or similar permit to enter our nations, and some sort of effective vetting process to ensure people entering our space are not working with or for our enemies. Similarly, ships of independent entities should not be able to obtain national flag status for their ships and their ships should not be permitted in our space."

Yui looked at Alex but didn't address him specifically. She knew USO would be screwed by some of these policies if it was unable to be recognized as a nation, but that wasn't something she considered a problem for Yamatai.

Targeting Independent forum! Loading HE shell!
 
So why does a Corp need FM approval for stuff that makes no difference to a faction?
Traditionally, you tag the FMs for factions in which you want your product to be sold. I usually go with Yamatai and Nepleslia for most items, because via those factions you can essentially sell to any character, and sales to minor factions can be more easily acquired in RP after approval.
 
I know this is discussing corporations, but considering the USO is denied the right to be recognized as a nation. Any corporation with us is automatically going to be classified as independent. Meaning they'll automatically be considered rogue in this context, and on an additional note. Yui said herself arckmarks won't be recognized as valid trade currency.

Essentially FSC, GH, and the USO are now isolated, and trade limited. Not to mention being barred from all other territories.
 
the USO is denied the right to be recognized as a nation. Any corporation with us is automatically going to be classified as independent.
You're confusing in-character concepts with out-of-character submission rules. All the OOC rules say is that you need to get FM approval for the factions in which you intend to produce or sell your technology, and that corporation creators can't get FM approval from themselves.
 
I think he's referring to the IC post made by Wes on the subject via Yui in the International Relations Conference
 
This has everything to do with both. This is going to affect both.

Ninja'd, that's right
 
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I think he's referring to the IC post made by Wes on the subject via Yui in the International Relations Conference
He said that "Any corporation with [USO] is automatically going to be classified as independent" because of that post.

That isn't true from a submissions standpoint. Being "classified" is an OOC consideration. A corporation based in USO is an USO factional corporation for the purposes of submission rules, as there is no such thing as an independent corporation that falls outside at least one faction's OOC purview. Black Syndicate criminals are part of the Nepleslia faction, for example, even though in-character they're criminals who are still often at odds with the Greens who rule Nepleslia.
 
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