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Mandatory Upgrades

Soresu

Soresu

Well-Known Member
Nekovalkyrja Upgrade Order

The last time Yui pulled something like this in such a manner was with the YE 28 Species Restriction Order. When that was announced it caused a backlash, including many officers and soldiers leaving the SAoY over it due to being forced to upgrade. So, I've come to question the logic behind this newest order and if it is a repeat of the YE 28 SRO.

While I understand a Military's need to upgrade its weapons to stay competitive, we're not merely talking about guns. We're talking about people as well. With this Order, Yui has essentially stated thus:

1: If you die, you're not going to be re-spawned in that body. Chances are you're going to be forcefully respawned in a newer body.

2: You'll be punished for not switching your body to the 33. Won't receive promotions, rewards or pay increases as such. So in other words, if you had done something worthy of praise, you wouldn't receive it. Unless you upgrade. If you don't, chances are they'll strap you down and do it. Discharge you, or prison time.

3: Yui's done it, so you should to.

Looking at it from an IC Standpoint, not all Neko, despite how the wiki article is worded would likely want to transfer to another body this includes other species. Reasons can vary widely in this. OOCly, one also has to question what are the advantages of the NH-33 bodies over the older counterparts beyond forced OOC obsolesce? When looking at the Comparison Chart between the NH-27/29, and NH-33 (Tennyo/Eihei) are non-existent.

From the wording of the NH-29/33 pages themselves the 33 seems to be an attempt to try to 'integrate' itself into society. This is accomplished through compulsory "De-weaponization", removal of the SACN Nodule, and their body converted to NH-31 Mikan strength levels. The timeframe is one hour.

This however seems to contradict the "Nekovalkyrja are weapons" topic that was so flush in the Senate earlier in the year. They are still Nekovalkyrja, they have all the Nekovalkyrja abilities still save for strength and PANTHEON access. So in reality they are still a very real threat to others of their kind and Yamataians alike.

Their bodies also contain more rudimentary circulatory systems in that a heart is included. Kidneys are also included. I believe the NH-29 had neither of these things, instead relying on a full-bodied arterial layout making it highly resistant to cardiovascular damage or shutdown.

Detoxification also seemed to be handled in different manner in that alcohol and toxins were broken down on the spot rather than be filtered to kidneys. Which can also be further damaged and decrease the Nekovalkyrja's effectiveness.

The only marked differences are the above, including a spleen which releases femtomachines to repair damage the 33 sustains. The parasitic contingency, and ability to breed with Yamataian, Neko, Nepleslian and so on. (However I think the 29 could also become pregnant from them as well. But don't quote me.)

Energy expenditure would also be increased due to the utilization of solid waste disposal, the growth of additional hair (Body hair), and fingernails.

Moving on, the NH-27 and NH-33 Eihei, incorporating some of the above into this. The 27 and Eihei share markedly similar characteristics with almost tacked on 'upgrades'. The 27 could accomplish the Subdermal or Epidermal armor in a similar fashion through Hemosynthesis and 'Penny-eater' abilities. So again the only difference is the Parasitic Contingency.

So I am left wondering how it is advantageous for a warrior to do this. To go from an effective form to one with likely more vulnerabilities (Tennyo) just because they were ordered to.

Not only that, but Yui is effectively telling Nepleslian, and Geshrin soldiers their bodies are no longer good enough (YE 28 SRO again) to be a part of the SAoY. So they must upgrade or get out.
 
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Re: Mandetory Upgrades

I agree with this.

This would be kind of like making it mandatory to have everyone use Windows 8 to be able to go on the Internet... except Windows 8 is actually not all that much an improvement over Windows 7.

The upgrade, in effect, isn't really all that significant. Not enough to justify making it mandatory.

This has been, also, the reason for much grousing on the part of the people I've seen talking about this in our IRC channel. I see Wes trying to put his foot down, but I don't see anything positive really coming from it.

* * *

Anecdote: I was designing the NH-30. The NH-30 was conceptually a lot of things the NH-31/33 ended up being - only I didn't complete it because I realized that it'd end up being highly redundant. So, I didn't complete it.

Eventually, Nashoba forged on and executed the idea, bringing about a style of NH-body that didn't need to actually copy his mind from one body to another to be changed. It also made sure that you could only be a full-fledged nekovalkyrja in the Yamatai Star Empire (in a way, pushing on Wes' desire that neko only exist in Yamatai too).

But that's pretty much all it did. It doesn't really render the NH-27 (which could easily adapt itself to have the SPINE interface; this is factual) or the NH-29 obsolete.

As for PANTHEON security, this is more or less an application that could be added to a neko's OS, without needing the whole body swap. Actually, I remember Wes saying so himself when I brought up the problem of Kotori being unable to change from her own problematic NH-29 body.
 
Re: Mandetory Upgrades

I am also adverse to this mandatory change. I had heard the discussion about the updates to software for security clearance on PANTHEON, and thought that that had solved the issue, but apparently it did not. I don't particularly see the NH-33 as having any advantages over the NH-29 and whatnot. also there is the possibility that some characters would simply like not to have their body changed if they could avoid it.

Honestly, this looks like a badly veiled attempt at another species restriction act, and I don't think that this should be enacted, especially if you want Yamatai to be as progressive as you keep saying it is.

No matter how you look at it, adding more restrictions is the opposite of being progressive.
 
Re: Mandetory Upgrades

I also agree with the others in this thread as well.

Already, the benefits of going into the NH-33 are so marginal, it makes it seem utterly pointless and heavy handed to have it be a mandatory change. But, this isn't the worst of problems either. Many already see it as a repeat of the Species Restriction Order, which was not popular with the playerbase in the slightest. Yamatai is supposed to be a a symbol of freedom and justice, but try looking at both the SRO and this latest Order from an IC perspective.

Which now leads us to the very worst part. A character in the setting could easily use the Species Restriction Order and this latest order to say that it's (Yamatai and/or the SAoY) racist and discriminatory. Again, IC, looking at the evidence, the characters in the setting itself would have very solid grounds to warrant this point of view. To honestly believe that the SAoY is racist.

From what I can see, we really, really don't need this.

Wes, could you please tell us why you want this? I can't understand it at all and am completely confused.
 
Re: Mandetory Upgrades

Since this was done first as an IC order, I cannot in good conscience make any threat to remove myself from Yamatai if Wes does not rescind this. He has made his decision and I must respond to it as a standing IC law. It would be poor form to demand he rescind it or else.

So, instead I have resigned all of my characters from the Star Army in protest of this order. I doubt this will be rescinded and I will not ask for it to be rescinded. Even if it is, I will not be returning any of those characters to their posts in the SAOY. I rather doubt they would be welcomed back as well. Again, I will not fight this despite this being a rather heinous breach of principles. I just don't see the point.

I echo many of the sentiments presented by others, particularly the seemingly overt racist tones within this order. As a player, I love my characters but I cannot stomach the ... hypocrisy of Yamatai any longer. It has reached a new level with this order and I cannot bear to be in it any longer.

For the foreseeable future, I am done with Yamatai. I cannot be a player in it. My work with Essia will be halted. Once those resignations are accepted, I will remove my characters from their positions and relinquish all responsibilities in Yamatai. I am sorry to do this but since the decision is already made, I must respond with my own.
 
Re: Mandetory Upgrades

I've just discussed this with Kyle, my own viewpoint is this;

The NH-33 is superior. But only in terms of OOC. In terms of IC however, its benefits are marginal, with some of the changes it brings easily being given through more minor software updates to older models. Right now, we have a clash between OOC and IC interests. The more I think about it, the more I realize that if I were the Site Manager oor even Faction Manager of Yamatai, I'd want the NH-33 to be used since it's superior for OOC reasons. Having an actual heart to pierce or rip out is very, very good!

But, I would have never given out this order, since I'd also know that some players would actually want the older models due to their IC benefits. It's why I asked in my previous post what was on Wes' mind when he did it. I would have instead left the decision as to whether or not a character was a newer model or older model be up to the plot GMs if I were in his position, and don't get why he did this instead.

Also, right now, I'm dirt tired, so I don't think I can articulate thoughts very well for much longer.

I'm just putting it here for the record before I go to sleep.
 
Re: Mandetory Upgrades

though the NH-33M mini lacks a SPINE interface that the older mini neko models and full size 33's have, making it unable to operate anything that requires a SPINE interface. (the only PA for mini's around for example)

So for us that play mini's this is a limiting downgrade. Would not be as bothered by this if it was not forcing a downgrade. The mini's have very little available to them as it is :/
 
To give a real-world analogy, you don't get to use an M1911 in the U.S. Army even if you like it better than the M9, because the standard-issue is the M9. You don't get to wear ACUs when the Army tells you to wear multi-cam. The Nekovalkyrja body is the uniform of the Star Army of Yamatai and you don't get to wear outdated uniforms because of sentimental reasons.

It's not about adding more "advantages." The neko are powerful enough already. It's about standardization. I want to have the Nekovalkyrja race unified again. These Nekovalkyrja bodies are military property, and just like the military will occasionally phase out old ships and guns after 5 years, it's been over 5 years since the NH-29 was introduced and it has a replacement already in service. So it needs to go, and I'm tired of waiting. This order was destined to happen when the NH-33 was approved and if you didn't know that at the time, you should have. Additionally, the senate voted to treat the Nekovalkyrja as equipment rather than a species, and this is what the result is. I really liked the NH-29 too but I want nekos on the same page.
 
These Nekovalkyrja bodies are military property, and just like the military will occasionally phase out old ships and guns after 5 years, it's been over 5 years since the NH-29 was introduced and it has a replacement already in service. [...] I really liked the NH-29 too but I want nekos on the same page.
Click to expand...

The issue, Wes, is more about how the NH-29 and NH-27 are not really justifiability outdated.

I applaud the effort Nashoba did to make a new iteration of the race, but there was a reason I didn't do it before him and it was very related to this: the change, in general, is mostly unneccessary.

Shoving that change down our throat ICly is kind of like people having acknowledged that Windows Vista wasn't that great after all and that they were better off with Windows XP - only BAMM! Suddenly Microsoft only supports Vista?

What I'm puzzled about here is how the Star Army as an organization doesn't acknowledge how the upgrade wasn't all that much worth it (because people in the Star Army are supposedly smart) and decide to force the issue anyways.

Additionally, the senate voted to treat the Nekovalkyrja as equipment rather than a species, and this is what the result is.
Click to expand...

And there's the silver lining for me. Maybe now people will get why I was so up in arms about this, and raised Kotori's protest to the level of abolishing the Senate due to them having no brains and treating Yamatai's master race like toasters.

Guys, if you don't like it, why not raise the issue in the senate? Wes seems to be abiding by the decisions they make - Senators could be receiving complaints from people based in their respective regions about how that ruling now negatively affects them, and senators could come forward about this.

Bill 95 is the culprit here, and reading back on it, the thing was brute-force passed without the objections raised even having been seriously considered.
 
Well, time for me to weigh in, I'm going to break this down into several key factors as to just why this move is causing such a stir, and such a displeasure within the player community.


Issue Number 1: Technological issues, and social impact.

I'm not going to dance around this topic, not in the slightest. Soresu covered most if not all of the performance issues related to the NH-33, but I'm going to touch on the matter again; they are a downgrade in regard to durability, survivability, and versatility.

Old model NH-17 can be directly compared to the NH-33 due to the use of so many organs, but we must remember, the NH-17 was not even purely synthetic, they were made using the same augmented and re-altered DNA which had made the previous stock of NH models. I can see no IC justification behind the step backwards to include so many internal components which are open to being damaged and thus crippling a neko, I can see no IC justification to even include the ability to breed with other species; if you are wanting to make the Nekovalkryja species 'whole' Wes, then you need to go for the full effect, and do not permit the species to mate with inferior life forms, if you're wanting racial purity, the same drive for racial purity which prompted the 'Elysian' plague, then commit to it if you're going to use it as a justification.

Further along the model line, the NH-27 crops up, and presents itself as what at the time could be referred to as the pinnacle of bio-engineering technology within the Empire, a peak, a perfection of the neko race to the point of which they are only made available to the most honorable and most important of the soldiers of the Empire, even to the point where royalty did not even occupy the model line due to the dedication of the model to being an instrument of warfare, a tool of death, which any weapon should be expected to live up to. Fully artificial synthetic DNA, subatomic structuring, decentralized organs, variable bodily configuration, toxin immunity due to there being no organs or bodily functions to disrupt, disease immunity due to the lack of a set cell structure, all at the cost of them needing a second bento box to get by during a mission. Yes, certainly they were too powerful for the common player, but, ICly they were a symbol of the strength of the Empire, a symbol to the grunts of the Star Army of what they were expected to aspire to... only to be given the NH-33, with every single flaw that the NH-27 never had in its service duration, thus making the common soldier very inferior to their big sisters, more than ever. Though, with the presence of the Eihei, the performance gap is non-existent, it is purely a question of logical technological advancement, which leaves me to ask; Why is the Empire intentionally crippling itself?

When the NH-29 model came along, there was a small ripple of resistance within the community based upon the move seemingly being a 'nerf' to the species, a step away from the NH-17 model's capabilities int he field. However, with the NH-29 came innovation in the form of improved efficiency, which it still holds an unyielding grip over, and this is made quite clear in the NH-33 description regarding their solid bio-metabolism. NH-33 don't digest as well as a NH-29, they don't use ingested material nearly as efficiently, they burn off the ingested material seemingly faster (Don't even know how, since the performance output is unaltered, must be maintaining all those inefficient organs.), and they need a snack-time in the field... NH-29 were not wimps like that in regard to durability. What was most important about the 29 model though, was that it continued a legacy focused upon the NH-Series being purely weapons, and, it presented itself as an efficient weapon, with no gimmicks, no glaring flaws, it was stable, it was viable, and it was a shining example of nekovalkryja racial superiority.

These are the social and technical impacts of the design, things which any IC personnel would notice, things that would cause any neko fixated upon the superiority of the species to cringe, and more so, glaring separations which set the average soldier so much more further apart than those that they would look up to, a disparaging gap, which would leave soldiers who put themselves at risk to life and limb asking 'Why does the Empire not care about us enough to make us as strong and as well put together as our older sisters?'.

Besides, NH-33 make poop and sweat. Nasty.

Issue Number 2: A focus upon what a neko is.


As a culture, the nekovalkryja race was built for one thing; racial purity and superiority. They were never designed for being okaa-san, they were never designed to be transitioned into a civilian life, they were never designed to be anything but soldiers and weapons; just as they have been legally defined.

Wes, you yourself in this thread have said that they are to be treated as equipment, yes? Then, in this case, orders have come down from on-high to start using inferior equipment, tools that are not going to get the job done anywhere near as well as it could be done. If the Neko is meant to be a weapon, a tool of war, then they should be designed for such, and without this OOC influenced focus on them seeming 'more human', because ICly, they're not, they're never meant for it. What we have here, if you want to get real-life comparisons involved, is the transition from the M14 to the M16A1, or the transition from the L1A1 to the L85A1, what we're seeing is a newer model with all sorts of promises, but none of which we really care about because we see the flaws.

We know exactly what happens to soldiers when they're issued sub-par gear; they die. What does that mean for a society then that is built around the gear they live in? What does that mean for a culture which is built around the concept of their very bodies being the pinnacle of superiority, and having that superiority taken away to be more like... what... a Nepleslian? A 'Human'? An inferior sub-Neko life form. What does it mean then for the very backbone of a culture to be in a sub par body? What kind of poison is this to the cultural psyche of the Empire?

If anything, the Empire should do as much as any reasonable arms manufacturer or supplier would do; observe, document, and react. Flaws are indicated, complaints have been made, issues are present in the design and are being voiced. What the Empire has a chance to do at this time is make a change; address the problems of the model before they proliferate to the billions of nekovalkryja in service, potentially causing a backlash of so many disappointed voices.

Wes, take this opportunity, give us our M16A2, give us our L86A2. Cut the features users don't like, remove the flaws of the species, make them superior, make them exactly as a weapon should be; a polished, properly engineered, efficient, tool. If the Neko is legally defined as a weapon, damn it, engineer them to live up to what they have been labeled by society.

Only once the boundary between soldier and civilian is clearly defined, can we truly know what a Nekovalkryja culture is about, only then can we know just what the society of the Empire is. Blending the lines between soldier and civilian is detrimental to the identity of either, when talking about life-forms that are born to kill, to die, to serve, to fight, to do nothing other than be an extension of the will of the Empress.

Issue Number 3: The OOC Issue

Here's the deal, its simple; players do not like being told what to do with their characters in non-negotiable terms. This was seen with the OOC backlash of the species restriction act. This is being seen RIGHT NOW, in this very thread. What is being done is the alienation of the player base, a failure to acknowledge concerns which reverberate throughout the community. Everyone who has played a neko, I mean really leaned into the role, knows that the body is the extension of their identity, it gives them who they are. I'm not talking about their looks, or their style, I am talking about their very purpose and function. To force a character to change into something they do not identify with, is to force a player to have a character they did not create, nor that they intended to play to begin with. When players can't play what they want to play they have a tendency to lose interest, and to move on.

What does this mean for the Yamatai faction, or perhaps the SARP as a whole? Bleeding out. Valuable players will be lost, they'll go elsewhere to do what they really want to do, and then those who have become good friends of those players will be impacted as well, and then the bleeding out becomes full blown, and it leads to a systemic collapse.

The Bottom Line

Wes, this move sucks, if you're going to stick with your guns at least pack good ones.

ICly: NH-33 are not liked by long-time members of the service, this is a known issue, and the Empire should do something about the model line if it is going to be adopted and loved.

OOCly: Listen to your player base, get feedback, find out a compromise. Work to make your dream mesh with our dreams, then we can all enjoy our time playing in the Yamataian faction.

Give the people what they want.
 
What could we change about the NH-33 to make it more appealing?
 
Why not just offer firmware updates for the NH 22, 29, and 27 that keep them in line with the new PANTHEON security measures?

Also, Firmware updates on the 29 and 27 that allow them to auto-demilitarize like the 33's do?
 
Kai: If we could do that, I would just firmware update the NH-29 with an update that turned them into NH-33s. If only! We actually already did keep the NH-29s around a little extra longer by giving them the SACN access nodule.

Gunsight: I think a mini-SPINE system could be arranged! Thanks for the suggestion.
 
The only reason it was not present was the total lack of information on the NH-29M page, Though one would think that equipment would also need a mini spine interface to connect.
 
the 29m is completely lacking in info at all but the 12 does and I've not seen anything to say the 29m doesn't have mini spine. the armor for the minis does have mini spine.
 
Wes said:
Kai: If we could do that, I would just firmware update the NH-29 with an update that turned them into NH-33s. If only! We actually already did keep the NH-29s around a little extra longer by giving them the SACN access nodule.

Gunsight: I think a mini-SPINE system could be arranged! Thanks for the suggestion.
Click to expand...

To compare the Tennyo and 29 I'll use an example, Wes. Let's say I'm in a military. I'm issued a handgun, it works well for what it does. Now, a couple of years pass, the handgun works as well as it had when I first got it. However the military suddenly issues orders forcing a change of weapons. I return the handgun, and am given a new one. What shocks me is that it is the same handgun, only a slightly darker shade of grey.

Both the Tennyo and 29 are too closely comparable to warrant a change no matter how much Yui stamps her feet. By giving the 29 the SACN Nodule, you've effectively made the 29 equivalent to the Tennyo in every respect save one. The Parasitic Contingency. A simple update to the 29 to give it that and bam, no discernible differences can be measured beyond more bodily functions (Fingernails, hair and the like.)

Same goes for the 27. You're effectively giving us the same handgun, painted a slightly darker shade and calling it new. Perhaps in being newly machined. But if it works just as well as the same model of gun I had a few years ago why do I need the change? The only thing I can think of is because I am being ordered to. And knowing I am wasting resources, and likely attachments to said object.

Now while this may not bother "Tube-born" Neko, it may bother birth-born. Of which I have two. Both of whom are very attached to their bodies. Not because they think they're generally better. In fact they think they are comparable to the 33. The reason is instead deeper and more emotional. Because their parents gave them their physical forms. It provides them with a grounding, an anchor that attaches them more firmly to their parents.

You would be telling them that their body is old, obsolete despite being equal to the 'new' model, and that metaphysical attachment to their body is stupid. In otherwords, Yui is walking up to them, slapping them in the face, calling them last year's model and rubbing their noses in perceived obsolesce.

I know you were in the military, Wes. So let me ask you this. If your commanding officer walked up to you and said that your body is obsolete, and that the one behind him is better (When in fact it's pretty much the same.) would you give your original body up? Knowing what it took to make it in physical, mental and emotional effort on both parents and your parts?

You want the Neko to be more integrated, standardized, essentially as weapons or equipment. If that is so then why ever give them emotion and personality then? Then they would blindly follow Yui, and by extension your every order. In this there just isn't enough incentive to give up something that works just as well and has likely much more emotional significance.

So in essence, short of nerfing the NH-27 and 29, or buffing the 33 and by extension ripping canon a new one they are simply too similar and not all that enticing.
 
A minor suggestion from the walnut gallery: Make the NH-35 Warmaiden concept that was discussed a while back. You know, the one that makes the neko the task-force deathmachine it was supposed to be, as opposed to an ineffectual infantry unit that has no place in Yamatai's military strategy.

I.E.

Mass navy, individual strike force to take out and hold specific targets,

as opposed to

mass army, land holdouts with many stationary defenses to plant.
 
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