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Member-Submitted Playable Factions / Submissions Forum

Hey Star Army,

Due to recent events, it's clear we need to come up with a smoother process for integrating people's ideas into the setting. I will be working on new rules for how to submit a new faction that are aimed to avoid confusion and negativity. In the meantime, I am temporarily placing a hold on all member-submitted playable factions; we will not accept any more until further notice. When we start accepting them again there's going to be clear requirements for them. I will also be looking at how to continue to make the submissions process friendlier.

I'm gonna be real with you, people are leaving the site because of the submissions forum is a toxic dogpile of rude people shitting on other people's imaginations, and it's not cool and makes me sad, and we need to fix it to keeping Star Army growing. We need to unfuck the situation.

Now there's only so much I can do by updating the submission rules, because when it comes to the emotional experience people have when submitting stuff, it's about the people interacting with each other more than the rules. The guide to reviewing submissions literally tells people to be friendly and helpful but it can't make people be those things. So we need to deal with the people situation too.

@Alex Hart (mecha meme): You've been super rude both to submitters and to the staff (Ame in particular) and seem to be a constant source of complaints sent to me by submitters, my staffers, and even the guy who just left last night...these have piled up for months while I've been busy, and I've tried to talk to you privately about this on Discord but it hasn't worked out. So I'm just going to put it here so everyone can see it's being addressed. Your services as reviewer are no longer required. You are also restricted from holding any FM position. I can't have people represent my site who are acting like this to people. We'll talk more privately.

@ everyone else: If you think you can do a better job of reviewing submissions, I'm accepting applications.
 
While I definitely think it was the individual who was a problem rather than our guidelines and community (the guy asked for advice, got it, then subsequently refused to listen and said nobody gave him advice), it'd be good to clarify things a little further. We do have factions and they are a core part of the SARP experience, but not in the PvP/FvF sense. There is no real faction competition here, only storytelling from different perspectives. I'm not sure how this can be reinforced because it's continually told to problem members who ignore the advice and get hyper-competitive with faction building (which is why I think this thread's trigger was a person problem rather than a guidelines problem).

@Wes's original suggestion of making new factions tied to some kind of RP event is great because that's honestly how they are supposed to be. The most successful played factions have come into being organically out of a plot. Nepleslia broke off from Yamatai in the YSS Destiny plot event, Exhack had the Land of Dreamers plot where a Geshrin (?) got stuck in Iromaland and there was a huge RP based around that, and a notably departed faction got really big because it revolved around an RP about a pirate's conquest of a low-tech world. Factions that don't have this kind of plot-driven existence tend to feel forced, don't contribute much novelty to the setting, and are opposed to the idea that factions shouldn't be someone's personal vanity project or an RP space simply for the sake of being in control. I think putting a restriction on new Human factions would also be a good start because we encourage people not to make more human-like species and then explicitly say "Creation of new factions that use actual humans as their main species is fine." If the point of the No New Humans rule is to see more alien diversity in actual RP, then new factions should offer something other than being Generic Human Empire C.
 
While I definitely think it was the individual who was a problem rather than our guidelines and community (the guy asked for advice, got it, then subsequently refused to listen and said nobody gave him advice), it'd be good to clarify things a little further. We do have factions and they are a core part of the SARP experience, but not in the PvP/FvF sense. There is no real faction competition here, only storytelling from different perspectives. I'm not sure how this can be reinforced because it's continually told to problem members who ignore the advice and get hyper-competitive with faction building (which is why I think this thread's trigger was a person problem rather than a guidelines problem).

@Wes's original suggestion of making new factions tied to some kind of RP event is great because that's honestly how they are supposed to be. The most successful played factions have come into being organically out of a plot. Nepleslia broke off from Yamatai in the YSS Destiny plot event, Exhack had the Land of Dreamers plot where a Geshrin (?) got stuck in Iromaland and there was a huge RP based around that, and a notably departed faction got really big because it revolved around an RP about a pirate's conquest of a low-tech world. Factions that don't have this kind of plot-driven existence tend to feel forced, don't contribute much novelty to the setting, and are opposed to the idea that factions shouldn't be someone's personal vanity project or an RP space simply for the sake of being in control. I think putting a restriction on new Human factions would also be a good start because we encourage people not to make more human-like species and then explicitly say "Creation of new factions that use actual humans as their main species is fine." If the point of the No New Humans rule is to see more alien diversity in actual RP, then new factions should offer something other than being Generic Human Empire C.
I also vote putting a rule on/doing something on the topic of "Freespacers but not Freespacers" that has been plaguing the species for ages now -- too many people want to make a Freespacer but provide absolutely nothing to the faction/species lore and it's really kinda graining to see another really cool part of the site getting ignored. That's been crippling the robot-nuclear humanoids for a long time now.
 
Hmm... Okay, I don't know a damn about coding a wiki. But what about a "character of the week" sort of page, where a random number generator chooses from a staff-approved list of characters to display on the front of the forum and/or wiki? Similar to how there's a "page of the day" for other wikis. At the least, it'll make characters seems more prevalent/important, I think...

Along these lines, we used to have an "Most Influential NPC of the Year" and maybe villain of the year but idk. That is definitely something that would be easy and fun to instate as a community election, I think. Maybe a PC of the year? Is there any reason I haven't seen one of those? The only NPC I know got this NPC award is Yui btw lol
 
not that im trying to change the subject or have a go at someone who's not here anymore. But should we move the remaining threads currently in the submissions forum to a more appropriate spot? At the moment they're just sitting there taking up space, unless he plans on coming back soon to pick them up again, i'm not in the discord server at all so i dont know many details about these situations.
 
Anything that's obviously abandoned should be moved to the rejected/abandoned forum.
 
This is gonna be a big post, but after reading everything here so far, I've formed an outline of what my opinion is on how we can fix the things that have been discussed.

First; People show up thinking SARP is a faction based role play
  • We implement some kinda thing like "Character of the month" and put it somewhere obvious so people can see us highlighting characters, rather than factions.
  • We should also probably find a way to highlight some independent plots as well, so people can see not all the fun is in factions.
Player Faction Creation rules
  • Make it so that in order to qualify for making a player faction or becoming FM of one that was 'abandoned', a player has to demonstrate that they are capable of handling the load. This means proving they can do the wiki work, showing that they are a competent GM, gathering a player base that would play the faction, and demonstrating a willingness to cooperate with the rest of the community.
  • In order for a faction to qualify(separate from the player qualifying to make it) the faction idea has to get approved by NTSE, not just 1 person but a majority need to agree that it can work with the site. Afterwards, a meaningful RP scenario must be created to introduce the faction. Then before any tech for the faction can be submitted, all 'core' pages for the faction must be approved through NTSE(the list of what core pages are needed will have to be worked over)
Non-Player Faction Creation
  • Non Player factions would be similar to Player factions, but you don't need to have a player base, and the introduction scenario wouldn't have to be as big.
Species Creation Rules
  • Do away with the 3 month restriction. This rule tries to make it so someone is familiar with the site before making a species, but it in no way actually guarantees that someone knows anything about the site. People will see it as arbitrary, and it'll get negative reactions from them believing it is simply some kind of 'gate keeping'
  • To replace that rule instead, someone submitting a species needs to have a good NTSE record to show that they understand the setting.
  • Any new species idea in concept should also be voted on by either NTSE or staff if it will enrich the site (like factions)
  • We keep an up to date list of things that we are currently not accepting as new species.
Corporations/Organizations
  • We take some steps to start encouraging the use of more played corporations as an in-between for being a GM and a FM. So that players that still want to have something bigger than a character to contribute to the setting can, without having to jump to factions.
  • This of course would mean we have to make guidelines on what separates a corporation from a faction.
NTSE
  • The NTSE -Atmosphere- needs to be handled. We've made attempts before but they were all only half measures. It's about time we admit that as a site, we don't pay enough care to how criticism is delivered to the submitter. The NTSE is not a place to try and reject ideas, but a place we should be trying to make ideas work in the setting. This would mean only a change in rules about acceptable behavior.
    • For NTSE reviewers this wouldn't mean much of a change, but just enforcement of what is already there
    • For submitters, they need to know when it is appropriate to request a new reviewer. Also they need to be made clearly aware that rude behavior can cause a submission to be rejected.
    • As for by-standards, this needs the most change.
      • First, we need rules about criticism from them. Two behaviors that bystandards have used that only make a situation worse;
        • Constantly bringing up the same point, as 'wrong' without offering any contribution to improving the article. Things only really need to be said once, then it should be left up to the NTSE to decide if the point needs to be addressed
        • It should be unacceptable for bystandards to spread around articles that they don't like, trying to rally people to complain about something(s) in the article.
      • Bystandards should not be making passive aggressive statements in or out or the NTSE suggesting that they're get someone's article unapproved or the like.
      • Bystandards should also not act like they're NTSE, they have no power over the article's approval, but new people don't know that, and there have been times where the By standards taken it upon themselves to try and force/pressure people to change articles, rather than leaving it upto the NTSE
There is probably more, but I'm hungry now and losing focus, so I'll leave it at this for now.
 
i really like the idea that more than just one person in the NTSE should work together on something like a new faction. Its frankly something too big that any one submissions mod should be tasked with. And also eradicates any notion of bias someone might claim that a specific reviewer is solely in or against them or their faction.

Also maybe an *interest check* kind of things for new species? So you can say "Hey i want to make a species and heres a run-down. I want it to be in this area/faction/planet. And will have interactions with this faction/group/etc."

And then instead of possibly sandbagging a submission and possibly ruinging however much work that person put into their article they can get feedback before hand and could get info right then and there like that we already have that in setting, What about X? or Y?, These guys would be perfect for/ how can they be on X when they have Y? etc...

I am now recently a submissions mod and the couple things syao pointed out i wholeheartedly agree with and would like to see standard. Ialso recall a time a year or two back. Where you couldn't post in a submission thread unless you where the submitter or the reviewer. And anything you posted had to be approved before it could be seen which im not demanding or even recommending. But i remember it worked at the time and maybe its time to look at other options like this in the future.

I realize this opens up a lot of possible issues like cherrypicking what can be said and the replies, And more or less forcing people to go argue on the discord. And i know nothings perfect but you cant improve a system until you know whats wrong with it~
 
The reason I didn't mention an 'interest' check with species is because it could be a new species for a faction already made, or a species meant to be an antagonist. So neither one would really need a 'player base' to get off the ground. There is also the problem that a lot of people vote on their preference, rather than what is best for the site. So I wanted to remove the decsion for both faction and species from people who are not held responsible for their decisions. So that the go ahead vote is just about whether or not it's good for the site. (If you're NTSE, you've already been trusted by Wes to work for the good of the site, not about whether or not you personally like something.)
 
Really would love to make a Yam Merc company if I can get enough people also like the idea that there is going to be more focus on charcters and also getting this smaller groups in play.

Edit: Yeah going to scratch that idea.
 
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I haven't seen this submitted yet, so another idea for consideration that's less squishy:

Don't let people make new factions. There are enough.

Syaoran's rules sound good, but they've been tried in the past. No offense to you, @Syaoran; it's a solid list.

But people are people. Especially some younger people. They come here for freedom, for the chance to put THEIR ideas to paper, to see THEIR vision living and breathing.

Just like Wes started all those years ago.

They don't necessarily want to conform; they've been doing that their whole lives.

However, if you give them the freedom ... you will run into these problems. No matter how you cage it. It's happened in waves since I started on this site in 2005.

So just stop. Stop with the new factions. Especially now that Zack's penchant for some grandiose PvP appears dead.

(Yes, this is an old sawhorse of mine. What can I say? I enjoy the feel of it.)
 
I agree that right now we don't need any new factions. But there might come a time where some of our current factions are gone. It wont happen t any of the big ones soon. But the ones currently listed as 'NC Factions" very well could be abandoned and gotten rid of. Not saying that -will- happen but it could. So we need rules for how to go about getting a faction made when we do have an opening for someone to make one. I also personally think we do have room for one more player faction that's a really good idea I think.
 
I'm personally no fan of banning new factions altogether. As I've made clear before, I'm planning on making one in the not-so-immediate future. Backed by prior RP to test the idea, see whether people like it and with RP backing them actually becoming a faction. For now, even though the plot is more slowed down, I've managed to attract 5 people already. And many know I'm not in SARP main Discord and even more know that I simply do not advertise my plots as is common on site.

It seems like a very sudden and harsh move to just outlaw the creation of factions, though it's not like I don't understand why you would suggest that. Though you can halt the massive influx of one day factions easily by putting in requirements such as enough interested people, completed threads, a valid backing why they're in the setting that has been roleplayed on forums, a backstory that also has been roleplayed on the forums, etc.

That would get rid of what you're hinting at Jun, without giving a hard no on factions.

Tldr; Forum work for factions. Not a hard no.
 
I think this would also put a limitation on both the gms abilities to expand there plots as well might stagnate the the forum if we don't allow some freedom. A big plot that many space opera's get is the exploration and removing the ability in the future to make factions means you limit the ability of some plots to expand.

Now there is a few ways to go about this and i'll try to speak on both sides of the fence with a compromise inbetween. So if we ban the creation of new factions then we should really focus on what we have existing and really promoting new plots within the existing frame work. I know after some major incident on the forum Nep's wiki and information got neutered so they need a major work up from the ground up. I know there is also a few plots that have become stagnate and I think one just got replaced maybe we should double check and make sure its all plots we have are active, lets also clean up the wiki here Active_Plots . I know a few things on there might not be active any more so lets clean them up and make sure we can get other plots going.

If we do that lets advertise and do some recruiting to keep the factions we have active and to avoid clutter. If we are not allowing new factions lets get some new Gm's that are abit different from existing plots that might get these factions plumped up. If we got a core of GM's and a few plots on each faction then a thing we can do if have them work together to make a summer plot maybe expanding a npc faction we are already dealing with (The Kuevexian War) just so we can keep what we have flushed out. The other way we can go about this is making a limited time threat that would be a plot species are plots will have to deal with ( Like the Mishhuvurthyar Wars).

I also think if they can't create factions why not allow smaller considerations, merc companies, spy agency or new crime organzations to pop up. This way people can create new smaller factions that part of a parent faction but if anything goes wrong with them there either so minor they won't be in the history books or just a small foot note. I think this will help those who want more freedom but also allow us to limit how big they are.

Lastly if we have a expanded core of plots and GM's I think the site will keep the growth and also have player retention which is always big.
 
Tldr; Forum work for factions. Not a hard no.
If you can get someone dedicated enough to do that work. Someone who's gonna be consistent, fair, thorough, positive, firm, collaborative and (with emphasis) constant, that's a possibility.

In 14 years, we've had one person who checks most of those boxes -- Wes. But it's hard for him to be consistent and thorough when he's running the whole site.

At least Wes has been here the whole time. I can't think of another person who has AND checked all the boxes he has.

It's no knock against people who have come and gone. Everybody has lives off this website.

Not to mention we're here for fun. What's described in "forum work" is a job. Straight up. A mostly thankless, unpaid job. Ask anyone who's done it.

* * *

That's just the job and person itself. Take the implication wider -- "We need someone to help QA and (to a degree) manage factions around here."

Such an encompassing metaplot task is something even Wes doesn't really do. He entrusts people here to get along with each other, talk, collaborate, so on. Micromanagement rarely makes anyone happy!

And with each new faction comes the old questions. "Is this faction a drain on the primary factions of the site? Does letting new players (<1 year service) make/join new factions drain the sinew they'd otherwise bring? Do we have enough FMs? How about GMs? Is this faction going to be like one big PC?"

And so on.

Tl;dr: Forum work for factions is hard work, especially for a single soul. Approach it with the greatest caution.
 
Edit: huh, reading back the responses in this thread, I can't seem to find any mention of Yamatai as the main plot. So I'm not sure where it went, but I swear it was there somewhere. Kinda makes this far more aggressive when it isn't in direct response to that :F

Whoo boy. Whoo, I can't stress this enough, boy. Here goes.

Let's start with the start. I've seen more behaviour that would support the contradicting of various of these 'boxes' Wes would check off. This isn't a dig at him and not entirely relevant to this conversation since this thread isn't about him or the 'worthy FMs / GMs of SARP.'

To drop the tension a bit, I wouldn't include myself either. Continuing on.

Which, when asking you, would be an extremely short list. Which I find terribly insulting and quite the extremist view on things - let's not mention the 'main' faction. That remark is one extremely funny to dissect. What do you mean, 'main' faction? You mean to inform me the main faction I've been more than bullied out from by a single individual whose name shall not be mentioned here is one you're supposed to play? The rest is just minor stuff, even though it has arguably far more interesting stuff? No thanks, I'd much rather not. If SARP's 'main' faction is Yamatai, why is everything else even allowed? And why are most (ex-)Yamatai players so tunnel-visioned supremacist to their faction that everything else seems like it's all unimportant? It's n impression I've had a lot from the veterans, along with the classic 'back in my day', it's always the lording above others because people were here earlier and played Yamatai and solely Yamatai. Because that's how things we're done and that's how things are supposed to be done.

Let's see, no. That isn't how things are supposed to be done. We both know that - everyone knows that. A faction where your view, opinion or interest barely matters and just the mere act of speaking up being shamed, met with hostility, staff abuse and no measures against said staff? Keep your 'main' faction and have fun with it. It is your main faction. Not mine.

And, well, to come down to the forum and wiki work. There should be work behind it. Roleplay is still a passionate hobby. And I'm rather passionate about what I write. And passion I simply do not wish to invest in Yamatai for how unkind it has been to me. I think it should go without saying there's work required to actually making a faction - work that goes beyond making a faction page. Such as preliminary RP, a proper backing for their independence, a proper backing for who they are and how they got there, etc.

As for actual primary factions, which currently include S6, Yamatai and Nepleslia, two of these are player-made factions afaik. So, why do you want to cut off what made 2 primary factions? A successful faction, in my eyes, isn't a primary faction - it isn't a main faction. It's just something unique people enjoy being a part of, whether it's five, fifty or five hundred (though the latter'd spook me out ngl). Who has the right to deny me, or anyone for that matter, even that chance at attempting to bring a meaningful addition through the site just because someone else couldn't follow rules and advice?
 
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Doshii's commentary is good. New factions, especially in recent memory, end up being slightly different flavors of the same RP that could happen in the setting's core factions. The biggest motivator for newer factions lately also seems to be getting a green banner and control over something. Nepleslia suffers the most from the proliferation of new factions, as they're SARP's mainline "humans" faction and the new factions that tend to spring up aren't like the Iroma or the Poku or the Neshaten, but act like Nepleslians with a different FM.

I still think the "new factions with plot event" route is the best. Maybe a requirement that the creator has participated in an established plot for something like two missions (like how you need two missions to get a subforum for an unestablished plot). But there is some merit to shutting down new factions so that people learn the Star Army (of Yamatai/of Nepleslia) part of Star Army Dot Com.
 
Okay, so based on feedback here's what I'm thinking:
  • I do plan to allow for new playable factions again at some point in the future.
  • These will have to be novel in some way (e.g. not duplicate what we have already). I definitely want to cut down on the human or human+1 factions. It should fit into the Star Army lore somehow instead of being something that could ostensibly be dropped into any random forum RP.
  • There will be some sort of activity requirement for people to be able to submit a faction with yourself as a faction manager (How about 1000 karma positive post ratings?) - if you don't have this you can submit NPC factions but can't control what they do (only plot GMs can). No more people walking in and becoming FMs immediately.
  • There will be a "packet" that's required for a playable faction submission which will be a collection of the needed wiki articles, plot plans, sign-ups/interest check thread of members ready to get onboard this faction) and the packet will be approved as a whole by staff. Basically the ingredients to starting a successful playable faction.
  • Limit new faction packet approvals to 1 per year (Subject to adjustment as needed). The best one wins.
Opinion: Instead of someone showing up and doing the Field of Dreams method ("If you build it, they will come") and having a single person build a faction then hoping people join it, staff should have other players banging at our doors saying "The WIP faction this person is working on looks epic, can it be opened to play in?"

Keep in mind that the more restrictive we make the rules here, the less people will give our site a chance, so the rules we make need to be really clear, concise, positive in tone, they need to explain why the rule exists, and they need to allow enough freedom for people to work with them. There's plenty of RP forums on the web and we want them to chose ours. Good rules protect new players as well as old players/established members, and give both parties piece of mind.
 
i agree with all that but the karma/positive posts. Which encourage a lot of post spamming and just bothering people through DMs to like your posts.

The packet approvals might be tricky also. As that might force people to more or less rush their work to make a deadline or have to wait another year and might outright send them on a tangent kayne west "imma let you finish, But." style. Twice yearly might be appropriate but that also opens up a whole new can of worms...


I still also agree and am saying it again just to bump that idea that more than a single reviewer should also be involved in a faction submission and staff as well to avoid potential bias for/against an individual.

No matter what tho imma keep building my knights and prodding people and spamming the media dump and setting design and gathering support and interest for the day i submit me haughty elves and their knightly aesthetic. Even if it takes a couple years~
 
I'll make a bigger post tomorrow porbably, but it is important to remember, part of what makes SARP SARP is the fact that there are player created factions, and the dynamic of things is not entierly staff controlled. Of course like everyone agree SARP isn't a faction based Roleplay, but it is a setting where players can touch and influence just about everything. That is part of the charm, and we have to keep that in mind going forward. So permanently locking off a part of the setting from players from now on should be treated as a last resort, if even considered at all.
 
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