[Neko] Fred's closer look at nekovalkyrja visuals

[Fred]

This is my look back at how nekos are/have changed in my time knowing them. The point is putting those observation under scrutinery, and giving floor to forum members airing their opinion on them.

Fingers:

• I'm glad to see fingernails make a return, since I wasn't fond of the froglike-sticky-digits all that much. However, I notice that the human hand has taken prevalence over the neko's distinctive three-fingers-and-a-thumb classical look.
  
  I kind of feel it's chickening out of that feature, just because artists got confused about it. I think we should have kept adhered to it more, correct artists at need, and kept that distinctive trait about nekos. Admittedly, the human pinky finger is mostly vestigial anyways, so I felt it made sense.

Teeth:

• NH-29 nekos had been, on Wes' request, made to have narrower mouths - basically we humans have four incisors between our canine teeth, and nekos were to have only two. This changed back to the 'normal human mouth' in the NH-33.
  
  I don't think the lesser number of teeth actually made much of an impact on people, but is this a bit of fluff we want to lose?

Ethnicity:

• We go from looking japanese with the yamato ethnicity and north-european with the norfolk ethnicity. I think that's fine, though there seems to be a decided tilt toward looking 'oriental' and an undecided feel on how looking 'nordic' would actually look like on a neko.
  
  Just what is 'japanese yamato' like when we write it down? What about the 'nordic-like' norfolk? Is there vocabulary or better cues we can give for those description? To me, being yamato-like means pale smooth skin, dark straight hair, slanted eyes... and being norfolk is about more rugged and tanned features and brighter tones of coarser wavy hair.

Ears:

• Classically, nekovalkyrja ears are like cat-like ears which are positioned at the same place human ears are, rather than the top of the head like a cat's (this is an art mistake that annoys the heck out of me). However, the cat-like feel of the nekovalkyrja has of late dilluted a bit with human ears having significant visibility in major characters in the past (Hanako, Yukari) and elf-like ears coming to the fore as well.
  
  I raise that point... because nekovalkyrja have '"neko" in their name, and the cat ears was the most obvious visual cue about why they might have that name beyond their feline agility and such. With the furred cat ear becoming less prevalent, I wonder if it might not harm the race's visual identity some.

Genetic tattoos:

• Codebars on nekos in some spot. I've never been fond of that idea mostly because it felt unappealing and tacked on. Nekovalkyrja are supposed to be artfully crafted into looking beautiful, and we'd mar them with some codebar labeling in someplace?
  
  it feels kind of useless because whatever codebar information provided could just easily come from scanning the neko and perhaps finding the same information synthetically planted in her cells. We have the technology - why settle for blemishes?

SPINE interface:

• I didn't like SLICS shoulderholes. In my head, it marred "neko beauty" in the same way the codebar did - it was like having nostrils in your shoulder that people could finger over. Eww!
  
  Not to mention I was kind of baffled as to how semi-mechanical connectors there would end up embedded into the deltoid muscles and how the arm would be able to function despite that.
  
  The idea I was allowed to develop them was a connector-less interface that would be associated with ship seats and the backing of power armors. The SPINE interface would be tied to a neko's backbone, boasting lots of secure close range wireless connectors that would allow the neko to have that immersive man-machine interface they previously enjoyed with SLICS without the grossness of shoulderholes marring their beauty.
  
  Visual-wise, I imagined the SPINE interface to have the nanomachine receptors embedding the skin darkening it some. This mental picture went on in my head for some time without really being realized until I actually asked an artist to depict it visually. I wanted some mark which, rather than being some blemish would look more like a natural demarcation of the neko's skin - just like pandas eyes are surrounded with black, raccoons have this 'bandit mask' and tigers have 'stripes'.
  
  Here's the execution of it for Kotori, which I figure can be hit-and-miss for some. Kotori's one of the first NH-29 made, so, there's probably no problem in picture later NH-29/NH-33s 'evolving' the look differently to alternatives such as Hanako's trill-like spots.
  
  I figure I'd put that out there. And see how others would feel about it.

 

[Wes]

Fingers: I looked back at archives and even Yui varied between 4 fingers (original design) and 3 fingers depending on the model of Nekovalkyrja body she was inhabiting at the time. An image on an NH-7 from 2002 shows a her with 4 fingers. The 3-finger hands, especially when combined with human skin tones, look like the artist made a mistake and I've grown to feel embarrassed by them. The omission of fingernails similarly seems like an omission on the artist's part.

Teeth: I think the important part was that Neko canines are sharper than humans so they look a little more dangerous when they smile.

Ethnicity: Nekos come in a lot of looks, I can't really say we've stuck to anything in particular in regards to face shape. Is this something we should restrict to certain phenotypes? I don't think that would be beneficial enough to warrant it. I just want them to look pretty, no matter what race they look like. It'd be okay to come up with some archetypes, though. Like the shirovakten/snowy nekos look very similar and the Ketsurui Samurai are mostly the same looking so they're subraces/archetypes.

Ears: The NH-29H and its successor are the reason we have non-neko ears on nekos. Hanako has recently chosen to display her heritage by adopting elf ears. It's a case-by-case basis thing. I want to mention that the original nekos never had colored fur on the exterior of their ears. That's something that's happened on its own and is a trend. However you'll note that my NPC nekos usually don't. It's not an issue, but it's interesting to me.

Markings: I wasn't referring to the bar codes, I mean the "war paint" face stripes and patterns, like this:

SPINE: I always portrayed it as a series of pink dots in a series, not a shadowy area like in the Kotori art. I'm not sure it's necessary to actually show it.

Other Old Features: Nekos used to have catlike eyes with three miniature lenses around the main slit one.

 

[Fred]

Wes, for me, nekovalkyrja have always had 3 fingers and a thumb until very lately with the NH-33. I admit I don't really understand how it embarasses you. To me it was established as one of the features that helped differentiate nekos as non-human - since I value that, it's probably why I'm attached to it.

How/why does it make you feel awkward? I don't want to argue the point (since we still have choice) so much as understand why it's not a state of normalcy to you. It being an artist's mistake you ran with didn't seem to bother you for most of the time I'm been on SARP.

* * *

Regarding teeth, the feeling I got when I imagined them smiling did involve them being more proemminent, but I also got a sense that it was a dentition closer to looking small mammal/rodentia rather than distinctively feline.

On the other hand, with 'normal human dentition' and noticeable fangs, it stands the risk of looking vampiric. Fangs are good, but avoiding the vampire-look would be good too.

* * *

For ethnicity, I'm totally on board with the archetype thing. It seems a good idea to provide known pigmentation trends for guidelines without restricting players to option. You did mention wanting to diversify things, but with no indication of what is normal in certain circles, it's probably hard for a new player to relate to anything else than his own preferences rather than making his neko 'like something else'.

* * *

For ears, I guess the options are not a big deal. Though, perhaps we should emphasize that the options are exactly that - options - and emphasize the norm? People wanting to stand out will probably go out of their ways anyways.

But, like you said, it might just be trendy. But it might be one of those tiny factor contributing to a host of others that could make the neko be less distinctive.

* * *

The warpaint thing is not my most favorite thing ever, but it beats barcodes. Maybe it's because I don't like Anri's. The second picture isn't so bad.

* * *

Regarding SPINE, I'm admittedly not wholly happy with how it turned out. It seemed a good idea on paper, and ended up not being all that amazing looking in implementation.

We could just not show it (which was the artist's preference too) but it was one of those other things denoting another alien part of the neko. It seems wasteful not to exploit the visual - at least informatively.

I'm thinking, presently, that if I'd have to it done again on another neko that it might be a better idea to go for how that warpaint-look on Anri's face - I might not be sold with it on the face, but maybe a close-to-skintone subtle geometric pattern could look more appealing and inspire that genetically-engineered look. You go for dots, and that's an okay choice, but not one I'd pick for myself... explained like that it sounds a bit 'kiddy' and simplistic (it might also be because I associate it to Trills, Trills to Star Trek, and like the idea of distinguishing it more further).

In any case, not really a point for contention. Just brainstorming.

* * *

Triple lens? Like, multiple irises in the same eye? Or a genuinely 'ocular camera' feel to the nekovalkyrja eye that would give this artificial android eye feeling?

 

[Wes]

Wes, for me, nekovalkyrja have always had 3 fingers and a thumb until very lately with the NH-33. I admit I don't really understand how it embarrasses you.

It was a constant source of frustration in commissions. Artists are used to drawing human-type hands and the nekos are too human-looking for their 3-finger hands to look like they're supposed to be there. The art was always coming out inconsistent (mainly because artists would draw human hands without thinking about it, or didn't have a good reference for what a neko hand would look like) so I finally said it's not a battle worth fighting and made human hands the default for the sake of future consistency. When I look back on the old neko hands, they seem goofy.

I looked through the archives and basically, there's nothing I could find to show actual art of the Neko teeth. Here's one from Valhammer with the neko fangs. I think the slightly 'vampiric' look is okay.

For ethnicity, I'm totally on board with the archetype thing. It seems a good idea to provide known pigmentation trends

I'll see if I can come up with a gallery of "looks."

We could just not show it

I'm fine with not showing SPINE.

Triple lens? Like, multiple irises in the same eye? Or a genuinely 'ocular camera' feel to the nekovalkyrja eye that would give this artificial android eye feeling?

It looks like that was never a common thing, just something from an NH-2 model Yui tested. Though it brings up a good point, having unusual eyes is a good way to make someone look much more alien.

 

[Fred]

It was a constant source of frustration in commissions. Artists are used to drawing human-type hands and the nekos are too human-looking for their 3-finger hands to look like they're supposed to be there. The art was always coming out inconsistent (mainly because artists would draw human hands without thinking about it, or didn't have a good reference for what a neko hand would look like) so I finally said it's not a battle worth fighting and made human hands the default for the sake of future consistency. When I look back on the old neko hands, they seem goofy.

That's a bit of a shame. You've had time and art laterally invested in that neko trait. It was a significant distinctive cue to how they were different than humans. You've mentioned lately your alarm about how you've felt the neko was slipping away. The three-finger hands, in my eyes, was a defining visual element for your nekovalkyrja.

I have to admit I'm fairly satisfied with the way the artists I've commissioned have been able to draw Kotori; hands included. I do admit it generally requires me to specify and make sure such is done correctly at the sketch stage... but the people I work with are generally receptive.

Then again, you ask for significantly more commissions than I do... so I figure it might be normal for you to be jaded about it. You're free to decide to abandon it, but it's kind of the easy way out. If you care about the neko, might the answer not be to simply establish better reference for the three-fingered hand? There must be a way it can be made to work - the Navis in the Avatar movie practically have the same kind of hands and that seems to have worked.

This isn't anything I care to fight over with you Wes... but you're the one worried about nekovalkyrja, and I only see more reasons to be worried for the neko's sake if that bit is abandoned after 8+ years of them being like that. Dropping them might be convenient, but it might also subtly go counter to your goals.

I'm fine with not showing SPINE.

I suppose it can just be handwaved that modern bodies are advanced enough to not have the discoloration earlier bodies had. *nods*

Triple lens? Like, multiple irises in the same eye? Or a genuinely 'ocular camera' feel to the nekovalkyrja eye that would give this artificial android eye feeling?

It looks like that was never a common thing, just something from an NH-2 model Yui tested. Though it brings up a good point, having unusual eyes is a good way to make someone look much more alien.

If we applied such a thing, would it kind of look like this? An iris-within-an-iris?

 

[Aendri]

I like that look for the eyes.

 

[Doshii Jun]

+1 for the eyes.

 

[Nashoba]

That would add a cool factor to the eyes.

 

[BionicSamurai]

I actually get more cat feel from the picture than vampire; but that might be due to the kind of anime I watch.

... Ok, I'll join the choir in regards to the eyes. ^_^

 

[Zonr_0]

I'm mostly ambivalent, but any proposal that uses AEGIS as a reference gets favor from me.

 

[Ametheliana]

Hands:
I'm thankful I don't have to ask commissioners to draw three fingered hands. It would take awhile to find an artist that would do that on the first try.

Markings:
I like the Eihei's kanji markings most of all.

SPINE:
The dot markings make sense and are a way to tell Neko apart from the crowd

 

[Wes]

It might be helpful if we had a Nekovalkyrja visuals wiki page that provided reference images of things like ears for artists.

I have been trying to make consolidate some of the Nekovalkyrja wiki pages so they're not so spread out all over the place.

 

[Primitive Polygon]

How about adding some of the weirder old features back onto the Type 33A? Being the more robust and tech-heavy variant, it would make sense from a production standpoint.

I mean, Nekos are cutesy flying bio-weapons who can punch space squids into mush. They are weird. It's what makes them unique. So I'd hate to seem them loose more unique features, just for the sake of allowing new people to make vanilla human-looking ones too.

So... Giving players a choice just seems like the better option all round?

 

[Wes]

The characteristics of the Type 33 and 33A are pretty much already set, but we could always make some new subspecies.

 

[Primitive Polygon]

Maybe an infiltration Neko body could work. There have been a few scenarios where the Mindy has been a bit heavy handed and ill equipped for that. Rocket boosters and gravity organ at the same time, for max agility but little defense?

Time to just draw some concepts I guess.

 

[raz]

Maybe an infiltration Neko body could work.

The problem with S designated Nekos is that nobody uses them. I scoured the wiki a while back, and every SAINT agent who has upgraded beyond a NH-33 simply skips over the 33S and goes straight for the Eihei model. I feel like that's probably mostly a problem with approvals and canon consistency, but it is what it is. If a new stealth/infiltration body comes about, something should make it better at what it does than the overpowered samurai body is capable of.

 

[Wes]

Nothing says stealth like rocket boosters.

 

[Doshii Jun]

I don't remember the order of what came first, the 33S or the Eihei. Eihei does everything the 33S does and tons more.

 

[Primitive Polygon]

Well making a quick getaway without a teleporter would help. Rather than this being a ninja/silent assassin type of deal, through, I was talking about something more efficient and tactically sound. The kind of "neko with perks" body that could be used for police/MP duties as well as spy work, since it probably lacks Mindy ability. A neko carbine, if you will?

 

[Zack]

Modern memos lack the classical styling and flair of the rocket boosters.

Kids these days will never know the joy of having CRT organs.