New Submission Templates

[Edto Xar'Sivaree]

Submission Type: Template Submissions
Submission URL:
https://wiki.stararmy.com/doku.php?id=wip:faction:vekimen_defensive_task_force Faction Main Page
https://wiki.stararmy.com/doku.php?id=corp:black_star_industries Company Page
https://wiki.stararmy.com/doku.php?id=characters:yamatai:cleo_oconner Character Page
https://wiki.stararmy.com/doku.php?id=corp:black_star_industries:cessation_class_light_cruiser Ship Template
https://wiki.stararmy.com/doku.php?id=faction:uso:u4gcm_minotaur Vehicle Template

Faction: Not Applicable
FM Approved Yet? (Yes/No; Who, When)
Faction requires art? (Yes/No)

For Reviewers:
Previously Submitted? no

Notes: So after our previous little snag with Layout and how it should be and such. So, I thought about it and remembered a quote that I think we can all agree with.

...always strive to do better than that which came before you.

Don't you all think we should strive to make SARP as good as it can be? This is a place of limitless potential, and when it comes to what people see on this site I don't think we should ever settle for "Good Enough". We should strive to be better always, so that when people look at SARP they see nothing but the best.

So, I set about trying to solve two problems. How to make the current Wiki layouts look better to the eye, and how to do the first goal without breaking mobile phones. This has been the largest contender in this case. I feel I have done it.

There is currently only one break on any of these pages, and that is the finance chart on Cleo Oconner. This break has been declared reasonable and expected by Wes, thus I do not need to fix it, as fixing it has turned out to be impossible.



@Wes only approval, @Fred @Ametheliana @CadetNewb @META_mahn @Arbitrated for comments and critisism, anyone else is also welcome. Please abide by rules, and despite it being WIP, I agree with it so much that I also ask people abide by the rules of this page, written by Wes as I feel it could not be better said.

 

[Wes]

These do not appear to be templates, and I see a lot of issues. I also dislike the idea of the using WRAP plugin as standard.

Also, you keep talking about "making the site better" as if your idea of how wiki pages should look is more valid than other people's, including the site owner, and as if the virtue of your submission is some sort of self-evident fact instead of the personal aesthetic opinion it is. Nor am I convinced there is broad support for this suggestion or any support beyond Arieg and maybe a couple other WRAP users.

When I designed things like the Starship Template and the Character Template I had full freedom to make them exactly the way I thought worked best, and I still do. In other words, speaking generally, the way they are now is because they are already the way I want them. If I wanted to use WRAP I would have aleady.

 

[Alex Hart]

You and I might not have always gotten along, but I'm fully behind your stated goals;

So, I set about trying to solve two problems. How to make the current Wiki layouts look better to the eye, and how to do the first goal without breaking mobile phones.

I haven't taken a look at it yet, but I think that if we all go into this with the same attitude of self improvement, this will be productive.

The only problem I see is that appearance is subjective.

And Wes, I think that @Edto Xar'Sivaree was using the articles there as examples of these templates in action.

However, it would be helpful if Edto could make them into actual code templates.

 

[Edto Xar'Sivaree]

Also, you keep talking about "making the site better" as if your idea of how wiki pages should look is more valid than other people's, including the site owner, and as if the virtue of your submission is some sort of self-evident fact instead of the personal aesthetic opinion it is.

I think you and I are having a breakdown in communication here. The site is clearly having a conflict over the Wiki Wes. Otherwise this topic would have never been brought up. What I am doing, is instead of choosing a side inherently, between A and B, I am, of my own volition, taking steps towards attempting to solve the problem as a whole. I understand you likely took a lot of time doing this, or maybe with such a drastic change in Templates you are worried about the amount of work it would take to standardize the Wiki. Maybe you're worried about user friendliness when it comes to the Wiki? Possibly you just don't want change and are digging your heels in.

I don't know what the issues you personally have with the idea of trying to move forward is, and thus I can't hope to make an attempt at answering it. The key to the success of anything is to evolve and grow to make itself better, because nothing is perfect. I just seem to be the only person in this conflict who has all parties of the sites interests in mind. My comments are not geared at

"SARP suck and I'm here to be the messiah to turn it in the right direction"

They are,

"I am an invested member of SARP and I want to participate in not only ending conflict between players but also taking part to make this already great site better and better."

I am literally the only one who is actively trying to make templates that look good because it has been said on the forums and quite often off the forums that the current templates are old and generally unpleasing to the eye, especially if they don't have art to go along with them. Current alternatives look good but don't work on mobile. I personally also find it strange that I have to scroll down the page quite a bit to find out the important need to know information on vehicles and equipment, but I can find out the history of that equipment immediately.

This is why I took my inspiration from Wikipedia. Because when I look something up, I can read all of that information sure, but all the important numbers that would be helpful at that very moment, like max speed, bullet caliber, company, units made, etc etc are right at the top ready for me to read at a glance. There is also very little empty space on the pages, meaning everything is dedicated to the information on the page.

Even Cadet mentioned, you wrote those templates a VERY long time ago. I think the number I heard was 9 years ago?

As for Wrap. Yes, the wrap function can break phones. You're completely correct. At the same time, some things are broken without wrap. I wouldn't be able to implement the charts while reducing space.

Secondarily, I find it odd you have no issues using a chart for Character Templates, but they can't seem to be used in the same effect for all other articles, which would make a lot of sense if we did.

SARP, like everything else on this planet, will always have room for improvement. If we as a human race suddenly decided that what we have was good enough, we wouldn't get any further than where we are now. If they did that 100 years ago, none of us would have been able to meet. I'm doing this not to put SARP down, but to try and be the one who starts the movement of pushing it even higher than it already is. It doesn't even need to be /my/ templates.

I haven't taken a look at it yet, but I think that if we all go into this with the same attitude of self improvement, this will be productive.

Thanks Alex! S'all good, I appreciate the support!

 

[Alex Hart]

I do want to point out that you should make these into actual templates @Edto Xar'Sivaree.

 

[Edto Xar'Sivaree]

Double post but this is an important thing to note for you Wes. Keeping Wraps isn't even my goal in this. The wrap plugin just happens to be the only way I know of currently to get this template style. If you can tell me a way to get this template style, without using the wrap plugin, then I will set to work making that happen. My goals are Look Good and Work on Mobile. Is this /my/ personal opinion on what looks good? Probably, but it's based on the largest Wiki site on the Internet so I feel that a lot of people would likely agree with me.

As to why you don't see a lot of support about it, maybe it's because no one actually looks at setting discussions often. If you want to find out what the players truly think, why don't you make a post? People will immediately gravitate towards it if you ask for their thoughts and opinions. Ask for them. I'm one player, I'm not going to get a lot of attention. You're the site owner. People are going to flock to the discussion.

IF they don't then I will revert all my changes and accept that SARP as a majority ((I think about 50-60 active players?)) are happy with what we have. If that is what SARP as a whole thinks, then I'm just banging my head at a wall, but the discussion needs to be presented without venom or discontent. I went through with this because you liked a lot of my comments on my development thread where I specifically asked for criticisms and thoughts on what I was doing and you answered questions and I didn't hide anything that I was doing. I had one complaint, and I did my best to respond to each and every complaint mentioned and I got no further arguments.

I do want to point out that you should make these into actual templates @Edto Xar'Sivaree.

I did it this way so people could see what the template would look like once filled out appropriately. I will be making actual template lists for it, but I wanted people to see the finished product, not the skeleton. All pages can be reverted with ease if this fails to hold so it should all be fairly standard fair. Actually, 3 of these templates are just mild revisions to the initial templates that Wes made. All I did on Cleo's really was move the chart from the left to the right.

 

[Wes]

You keep saying the current templates are old but most of them are not. For example, the modern version of the character template--the one where the social connections section was added--was implemented on Halloween 2016, less than a year ago. The star system template was created and approved this year. The oldest one is the starship one.

 

[Edto Xar'Sivaree]

The Character Sheet template has a chat Wes. So why can't all the other templates ultilize similar charts? Second, the large space that is left over when the chart is on the left where the text of the page is side by side when the chart is on the left.

Those are the only two changes I am actually suggesting in the long run. If me and you can agree that works then that is perfect.

Also, utilizing the chart for vehicles and equipment brings important information to the top of the page, rather then having to scroll down other information as well. How the weapon works is a on the spot thing to research for GM's and players trying to use a gun, so it should be closer to the top. Removing it from the "Text" of the page and adding it to the chart separates the technical details from the fluff details which makes reading easier, instead of this small section in the middle of a Wiki page explaining all these details.

 

[Edto Xar'Sivaree]

So does your like mean you are okay with that @Wes? I'm confused. Is it okay for me to proceed, adding charts to the templates so long as that's all I do to them?

 

[paladinrpg]

I do agree the starship template needs some attention, to bring it more in line with the modern character and star system templates. Charts are certainly one way to do that, and organize the technical bits in a more digestable at-a-glance form.

 

[CadetNewb]

If I recall correctly, most of the fighting was over the starship template to begin with. If someone wants to standardize all of them instead of just that one, I don't see the problem. Ones that were of the older template can just be grandfathered in.

 

[Ametheliana]

I've made several templates:

Planet
System
Power armor
Faction
Personal power armor

Are you going to replace those?

 

[Edto Xar'Sivaree]

I've made several templates:

Planet
System
Power armor
Faction
Personal power armor

Are you going to replace those?

Do they have the charts on the right, with the specifications and performance in it, or are those half way down the template?

Or, better, can they be added in?

 

[Ametheliana]

The system and personal power armor ones do.

 

[Edto Xar'Sivaree]

The system and personal power armor ones do.

The goal is for every template to have such a chart because it provide the need to know at the instant information to the GM at a glance without having to scroll... As much in some cases.

Replacing everything because it's "Bad" is not the desire.

Actually, this is just step one to quite literally me, and anyone who would like to help, going through the entire Wiki and standardizing all the pages. The Formatting of the Wiki and how... Strict everyone is about it only just started to be a thing this year. Before if the page looked good and was of quality content it wasn't exactly an issue of sorts. At least, from my damn well close two years, only the last third of it has contained any stringency on Wiki Articles.

Once we do that, there will no longer be an excuse. The Wiki will be entirely uniform, or at least a vast ajority of the primary content.

 

[FrostJaeger]

The goal is for every template to have such a chart because it provide the need to know at the instant information to the GM at a glance without having to scroll... As much in some cases.

The Table of Contents already allows GMs (and everyone else) to locate the "need to know" information with a single click of the mouse.

Replacing everything because it's "Bad" is not the desire.

Then what is the "desire" behind these changes? Personal aesthetics, like Wes (accurately, in my opinion) said here?

Actually, this is just step one to quite literally me, and anyone who would like to help, going through the entire Wiki and standardizing all the pages.

If your "desire" is to standardize all of the articles on the wiki, then why are you making more work for yourself by creating entirely new templates that - from what I've seen so far - have little to no support? Wouldn't it make more sense to begin standardizing articles using the current templates (which are approved, widely supported, and utilized in a lot of pre-existing articles) instead?

The Formatting of the Wiki and how... Strict everyone is about it only just started to be a thing this year. Before if the page looked good and was of quality content it wasn't exactly an issue of sorts. At least, from my damn well close two years, only the last third of it has contained any stringency on Wiki Articles.

The Submission Rules have been around for a lot longer then two years, Edto.

 

[Edto Xar'Sivaree]

The Table of Contents already allows GMs (and everyone else) to locate the "need to know" information with a single click of the mouse.

Yes, but so far your only argument against the new potential implementation of the charts is that you just don't want them. Having the information in the chart would minimize the space and, as I hae said multiple times, allow our wiki to emulate Wikipedia, which is currently the powerhouse and golden standard of Wiki work. No one has argued this.

Then what is the "desire" behind these changes? Personal aesthetics, like Wes (accurately, in my opinion) said here?

"Personal Asthetics" based on, as I said, the largest, most successful Wiki site on the internet. No one has argued this claim. There is a reason it works, and I don't see what is wrong with wanting to emulate that.

If your "desire" is to standardize all of the articles on the wiki, then why are you making more work for yourself by creating new templates that - from what I've seen so far - have little to no support? Wouldn't it make more sense to begin standardizing articles using the current templates (which are approved and widely supported) instead?

The standard templates, currently, while they function, look similar to that of standard forum posts in some regards. I have literally made these arguments a million times, and you only seem to ignore them and keep asking the same questions. Please get out of my thread if you are going to continue doing as such, as your comments are not being productive. Please read my opening post and abide by them to remain respectful to the wishes of this thread. As for support, honestly this is a roleplay site. Few people have concerns bordering past "What is my character going to do today" and as I mentioned before, if Wes made a thread asking players to give their opinions, this conversation would be much larger.

Support against me is the same general crowd of faces. Specifically you, but even you haven't mentioned any problems with my layouts and given I have accomplished my best efforts, as I have asked others to help out and well, wiki work isn't for everyone, at making a Wiki layout that provides the informtional charts as well as are mobile friendly. I am saddened you aren't more willing to accept or even help with this task as al it goes to do is show an effort to end hostilities rather than push them forward. All I hear from you is "Why change."

In regards to standardizing the Wiki, some templates have charts, others don't. That is not uniform. I am gunning for Uniform. If some templates have charts, all templates should have charts. The character sheet is an official template that contains a chart being utilized in a manner to which I hope ALL templates have them utilized, or at least in similar functions. Making the pages look the same is my goal. As I said, all I really did with Cleo O'Connor is move the chart to the right of the page, so that the text can move up to the top of the page and we don't have that massive empty space right next to the character.

The Submission Rules have been around for a lot longer then two years, Edto.

You are correct. The Submission Rules have been around for a lot longer than 2 years. This is you making inferrences on what I said, rather than taking what I said.

Strict. That is what changes things. I said the rules have only been so strict over the last few months. I think it really started around January. I could say why but it would be useless. You can't argue this, as if the templates had been as strict as they are now, then there would be very few, if any pages that do not follow the template guide, and major factions have pages that don't abide by it. Company pages don't all abide by it. There are massive sections of the Wiki where you can often tell who wrote an article by how it was laid out.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~


At the end of the day, this problem is slowly boiling down to a simple fact. The Wiki is not uniform. No one can argue that. It just isn't. The templates we have are not uniform. They just aren't.

Instead of making a rise about how I seemingly wat the site to look the way I want it to look, why dont we focus on the glaring issue that no one wants to address merely because it would be a massive amount of work and that is that the Wiki ad the Template aren't uniform.

Uniform the Templates.

Uniform the Wiki

Enforce the rules from there on out, without anyone looking at pages and being able to say "Well this page doesn't follow the template" because grandfathering things like that in is simply a move of convenience. It would be more work to change it then grandfather it. I'm already willing to put the work in, and I'm well aware what I am doing right now is just adding more work. But I feel it's for a good cause and am willing to try and put the work in.

 

[CadetNewb]

I don't see what the fuss is about. If the new templates are better - and they do look better - we should adopt them, shouldn't we? Even with the 'new' templates, the changes are rather minor, with them definitely having their lineage stemming from the older ones.

 

[Edto Xar'Sivaree]

I don't see what the fuss is about. If the new templates are better - and they do look better - we should adopt them, shouldn't we? Even with the 'new' templates, the changes are rather minor, with them definitely having their lineage stemming from the older ones.

Well, given I just took edits to pages that existed already

 

[Ametheliana]

But you sort of made edits by adding things Wes said he didn't want used improperly, allowing for greater use of them being used improperly.