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[OOC Discussion] SAINT Gear

mizunoyoroko

mizunoyoroko

Inactive Member
After talking with you guys a little, as well as some stuff I had been thinking about, the stuff (gear/equipment) that SAINT uses isn't all that clearly defined or listed. We have 'listening devices', 'specialized computers', etc. But there's no real information for a person to actually determine what that means or is. A recommendation I've heard is to make a thread to talk about things such as this, and it is a good idea. If we're going to be using this stuff we should probably nail down exactly what it is we're using right? Anyway, this topic is for that purpose. If you have any gear suggestions/things like that feel free to post it.
 
Well to start, here is some of the equipment available some specifically for SAINT, and others that just have good use items. All with documentation

These are ear pieces that allow the wearer to listen in on conversations. Basically miniture shotgun microphones, good to listening to people when they are out walking and meeting folks. The difference between 1 and 2 is 2 is Neko only and uses the cat ear to provide a larger focusing.

Covert Directional Listening Device-1
Covert Directional Listening Device-2

What no self-respecting spy should be without. These are basically digital cameras, GPS w/range finder. Useful for surveying a target area, and taking pictures, and providing GPS coordinates for later use.

Covert Operative Sunglasses - SACOS

This little gadget could be useful. Developed as a possible replacement for the Type 29 communicator. It comes with a life sign scanner, useful for avoiding pesky security guards, also has a limited AI (so you could tell it to let you know if anyone gets close, range of the detection is limited), and translation.

Multi-Function Bracelet

This little beauty is basically a laptop with the computing power of an AIES. Comes with various cables to connect to other systems. Since it contains an AI, it can assist the operative with tasks at the speed of quantum computers.

Isolated Computer Pad

This could be useful, especially when setting up lookout point. Setup your area, deploy the fabric over it and no one sees it.

Camouflage fabric
 
Nashoba has listed a lot of great stuff that will probably be pretty useful, but I'd like to insert a quick caveat. Granted, we can always defer to the rule of cool, but for the sake of authenticity, we might not want to get too far into the world of spy gadgets. Everything mentioned so far is far more restrained than the ilk of James Bond movies, but it could be a slippery slope.

On the other hand, complex and sophisticated computing technologies are a-okay as far as I go. I'm still a little unclear about how PANTHEON works. I'm assuming it allows complete viewing of all networked communications. Of course, I wouldn't think it would automatically decrypt private encryption, but could off-site processing assets be tasked to work in parallel with on-site assets via PANTHEON for intensive operations like encryption breaking? Also, what I'd really like would be for Nobutora to be able to infiltrate the suspects' machines to the point of placing interception programs within the virtualization layer of software, essentially the point of interface between the "hardware" of a system and the software running on top of it. This would allow complete acquisition of all data on the computers, but the challenge would remain sorting through all of the information and analyzing the details for clues, assuming the suspects aren't idiots and didn't keep some obviously labeled ledgers of their interactions with whoever is bankrolling them.
 
The ICP would be the perfect tool for Nobotura to do that. Because its not as powerful as say a MEGAMI, but the user can create sub programs using the ICP and then using it work their way into the target system. Definitely still need the human aspect. To be most effective, would need to get Nobotura and his ICP as close to their computer as possible, to bypass external firewalls, and give him the best chance to 'hack' into the system, plant his programs, ensure the system doesn't go screaming to the baddies, and then get out.
 
Just thought I could drop a few ideas here as well. If I say something that isn't plausible does not fit with current tech please forgive me. Here are a few ideas I was kicking around.

- Possibly some form of psi dampener (to cut down on the buzz people feel when someones sending a message) and/or booster (to allow for greater distance). It would have to be small of course. No point carrying around something bulky or even obvious.

- I saw camouflage sheeting in one of the previous posts but what about a suit?

- Burglar equipment (more futuristic of course)

- Some form of noise suppression field.

These are just some rough ideas and I have more. I could grow on them with more detail easily but I'd like to get some feedback first if anyone has any to give. :)
 
Lockpicks are already available in the SARP.

Door Breaker Lockpicks

As the only SAINT plot going we should probably start a Wiki page listing all "current" equipment useful for SAINT operations. So future groups wouldn't have to hunt for them.
 
Mite be a very good idea since we are just getting started. It'll give us an easy page to reference to as well if need be.

I guess my next question would be weapons and armaments. What kind would we use? I'm sure it'll depend on the mission in question but I'm sure we could come up with some suggestions. Here's some I have, taking into consideration the fact that working undercover will require concealable items.

- Medusa
This baby is great for concealability, versatility, protection and support. (Armor)

- Sonic Pulse Gernade
Nice piece of hardware that can be used over and over, causes no noise that can be heard (ultrasonic), at least not at long distances anyway, and takes out large numbers without killing them. (Crowd Control, Infiltration)

- Vial
Never sure what melee weapon to take on a mission? This could be a good choice for anyone. It is small, compact, easily concealed and versatile in that it can be custom programed however the user wants. Some useful settings could be a shield, whip, knife, or sap. (Melee Weapon)

- I was looking for some other weapons as well but didn't see any. Some form of stunner would be useful.

- How about drugs? Truth serums, paralytic drugs, poisons and the like. Is there any form of needle thrower out there? Something that uses compressed gas for fuel that is silent.

- How about remotes? Robots used for infiltration of airducts that could potentially place listening devices through out a building for intelligence gathering.

Let me know what you all think. :D
 
The ideas here look pretty good, but I'm just a little worried how a lot of it, and not just from Derek, looks to be geared towards being pretty physical. I guess this is something we ought to talk about in the JPs on Sunday and Monday, but for my part I don't want this to become some sort of super-spy action plot.

That said, I do like the idea of the robotic listening devices. I'd been thinking about it, but if there could be some observation variant of the nodal system? I don't know how it would work, but a bunch of femtomachines could get places basically undetected. Also, visual interceptors, of the Ghost in the Shell Stand Alone Complex variety, would also be pretty nifty. Basically, they would let you see everything the subject looks at.
 
Okay, this may not really be SAINT gear, per se, but I’ve been thinking about provisions for SERE kind of situations. I’m working on the article independently but I wanted to bounce the idea off my SAINT compatriots first. Essentially, have as part of standard SAINT indoctrination a measure of mental conditioning and programming a system to facilitate escape, resist torture or interrogation, and finally commit suicide. For the first, if an operative gets cornered, an Escape and Evade protocol could be activated to override the physical/psychological limitations of the body in combat, speed, agility, etc. Sure the muscles may be torn up afterward by the exertion, but the operative might be in the clear. For the second, it could be anything from extreme mental and emotional stability to the ability to artificially put one’s self into a coma to prevent interaction. And finally, if interrogation, drugs, torture, etc, did manage to compromise the operatives’ defenses and get them to reveal secrets, it would kill them, in some manner like melting/exploding their brain from the inside. Basically if the operative is about to give away secrets to those it would be unacceptable to tell, the program kicks in and detonates… a charge? The tissue itself? I’d read in another IC post in an archived plotship a character that had programmed her body to detonate the chunk of flesh around a mishu tentacle to prevent being controlled. Anyways, just some thoughts.
 
Interesting concept, smacks a bit of Starship Troopers (the book) in that you're putting preprogrammed responses that the individual can't resist.
 
Update: SAINT Standard Conditioning Package

I'm not quite prepared to throw it to the sharks of the approval forum yet, but while I'm still working on it, I'm quite open to suggestions/criticisms from my fellow SAINT operatives, especially since Level III could have a pretty big effect on your character. Anyways let me know what you think.
 
I like the concept, but I personally would prefer that it be something that the individual can invoke. A command phrase that they can think to activate.

After all, the third option, has serious implications for GamePlay. A player should have the rigth to decide if they are going to have to sit out the remainder of an operations because they got caught and felt that self-destruct was the only option to protect the data.

On that note, you might want to make #3 actually #4. Why not make #3 the ability to selectively wipe information. ?
 
So far, it looks good to me, especially considering the war situation.
 
I do appreciate what you’re saying, Nashoba. My concern, however, is that I would have a hard time finding it realistic for an intelligence agency with the capability of protecting their information in even the most dire situation, especially given that mental back-ups are standard, would allow the possibility for an agent to choose not to activate the protocol and give up the information. In fact, the whole point is that the agent has no choice in the matter. To make it clear, the situation under which the protocol would be activated is not just, “Oh, I’m captured and they ripped out my toenails”… boom. Rather, it’s after days, weeks, more even, of constant effort, the counter-intel group has undermined every bit of resistance conditioning and has essentially taken over the agent’s ability to make decisions. It is in this case, where not only is the agent unable to make the decision to off themselves but the enemy is able to force the agent to divulge the most sensitive information, that the protocol activates.

As for game-play mechanics, this is obviously going to come down to the rules of the RP. This is just another way that a PC could die; if the player insisted they not be killed this way, I suppose the GM could just increase the difficulty of breaking through the conditioning until rescue arrives. And if rescue isn’t coming, well, the protocol would actually make it faster to get back into the game. Really, I’m not imagining that this sort of situation would occur very often; rather, it's sort of a bit of fleshing out the background of SAINT practices, while highlighting both the danger and the importance of operatives. Ultimately, the whole package is just meant to give GMs and PCs a different set of tools to RP operatives that differentiates it from other player occupations.

At any rate, I’m not submitting it yet, nor am I completely unwilling to change some of the protocol hierarchy; these are just my thoughts at the moment. Input is still very much welcome, and if you do really think the above is a problem, Nashoba, I can certainly change it.
 
Hey, Sean,

I have no big exception to it, just my way of thinking it if it was something the individual could trigger, then it would be like the suicide pills of old.
 
Wow, I need to pay much more attention here. This is good work Sean, I like it a lot, but I do have a question: How does the body determine when Protocols I and II have been breached, more specifically Protocol II. What other conditions lie around Protocol III? How does the body know when the operative is talking to a superior officer (who is cleared to know the secrets protected) vs an enemy operative, especially if protocol II has been defeated. Lastly, can the operative put more information into this 'protected zone' of data?
 
Well, there is something the individual can trigger: when operating in a Level II environment, the final protective/resistance measure is the ability to self-induce a coma. I’ll come back to why this, and not self-termination, is what the operative can personally activate in a moment.

To explain it tough, I think addressing Yoroko’s points are useful. There are two important things to remember for the functioning of these protocols: first, conditioning allows the creation of new impulses within neural functions, in this case mostly involuntary, and secondly, Nekos and Yamataians are all essentially organic androids. There is a level of programmability within the entire NH series that makes the imprinting of new imperatives easier. So asking how Level I and II situations are detected is the same as asking how anyone is able to react to a threat. Essentially, the activation of Level I protocols is identical to your body pumping out adrenaline if someone pulls a gun on your, or you get in a car crash; it’s an involuntary, automatic reaction to the stimuli. As for Level II situations, as I wrote in the article, most of the Level II defenses are passive, in terms of increased mental and emotional stability and increased resistance to psycho active drugs. The only active measure is the coma I mentioned before, and it is under the control of the operative.

Again, the explanation of how Level III situations are determined is the same as what I said before. These reactions are involuntary impulses and imperatives, on the order of controlling your heart beat, that function on the basis of holistic neural processes, from the accumulation of sensory data to the processing throughout the nervous system, particularly the brain. Now, within these impulses, there isn’t a preset, registered “protected” category of information; there is no list of “do not disseminate” documents that is imprinted. Rather, the conditioning is based on the mission parameters of SAINT. “Protected” information is that which the enemy cannot know or cannot know SAINT knows. The definitions of “cannot know” are a little different than what the regulations might represent. The Level III protocol won’t activate if the operative is forced to reveal classified but standard communication procedures; on the other hand, it would activate if the operative is about to reveal the secure SAINT courier procedure for reaching an informant. Again, this is a holistic process.

So to conclusively answer why the operative isn’t allowed to control termination themselves, the fact is that operative’s have intelligence gained during the mission, perhaps even during their capture, that might be useful to SAINT but hasn’t been transmitted back yet. The purpose of the conditioning is a balance between two potentially competing issues: one is to keep the operative alive for rescue and debriefing and the other is to protect critical information. The protocols are designed to keep the operative alive even within the confines of possibility debilitating interrogation or torture, until it becomes impossible for that goal to not compromise information security.

I thought some of this was explained in the article itself; other parts of this are expanded concepts from the article, some taken from concepts I took for granted. Please let me know which of this would make things clearer by including. I’d really rather not increase the bulk of the article too much; it already is pretty dense.
 
I think I worded my question incorrectly. If an operative can be 'brainwashed' as it were by her foes then how will her body (which is controlled by her mind) be able to differentiate between 'safe' people to talk to about the protocols and 'enemies'. If 'brainwashed' she wouldn't be able to consciously, perhaps even unconsciously, tell who was friend or foe and thus the protocol would be useless. What if an operative had gotten captured and both protocols had been activated but the information she knew was vital for one reason or another (perhaps courier methods had drastically changed and she was the only one in the area who had been informed), if her CO asks for the information as soon as she's rescued would Level 3 activate?
 
I guess to make it a little more clear, Level III contingencies activate immediately prior to that point of utter control. That’s why the name of Level III is “Imminent Compromise.” Again, these are distinct neural processes; your unconscious, almost instinctual impulses are the hardest to manipulate, and in this case the Level III protocols are buried, as I said, as deeply as the regulatory commands for your heart rate. When the operative is about to be completely compromised and compelled to surrender information, the Level III protocols activate, immediately terminating the operative. To explain further, a Level III situation is not where the operative has been tortured into surrendering some disposable piece of information; a Level III situation is where the counter-intelligence force is about to rip from the operative the most heavily guarded secrets they carry. It’s not just someone asking about sensitive information, it’s the operative being unable to do anything but surrender the information. So, no the CO asking would not activate Level III protocols, especially since the CO would usually be recognized as someone in the need-to-know hierarchy of the SAINT command structure; but I would also presume that the CO questioning an operative like that in such a context would be a violation of procedure.
 
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