Saluting in the Star Army

I was thinking about introducing salutes to the Star Army of Yamatai. What do you think? It's easier than bowing and people expect it with a military force.

I'm actually against this, I don't mind saluting, but in this particular setting I'd prefer Yamatai retain the bowing than the saluting. After all, it sets them apart from the other factions and makes them a bit more unique in that regard (I don't know how this works in Nepland, so I'm purely going off what I know for Yamatai)

I agree. That's one of the things that I understand many new players will make mistake on... but that's the sort of thing that needs to be broken in. The flavor there is just a little too important to cast aside for convenience/modernism.

Well, since the Japanese military actually uses salutes, I don't see why not add salutes. However, maybe you might want to retain bowing. Like Kyle said, it really does separate Yamatai from the rest of the factions.

Maybe a salute could be used for situations that are urgent or generally informal (such as meeting an admiral down the hallway or entering the bridge) and bowing could be used for more formal affairs (ceremonies, funerals, meetings, etc).

Or maybe protocol would depend on the ranking. Anyone higher than Captain gets bowed to, anyone below gets saluted, etc.

In any case, I think that salutes should be added to bowing, but not outright replace it.

I believe there should be only bowing. It is unique to Yamatai (+1 to Kyle) and adds a feudalistic touch to the military.

What would be the compelling reason to ditch bowing or add saluting?

Bowing, for flavor. It sets Yamatai apart, and gives it the Japanese-flavor that was intended for it -- the same with the forms of address, such as san, kun, chan, and sama which new players also forget too.

I'm not sure if it's still the case, but in the wiki article it said that enlisted that DIDN'T bow usually got slapped around for it. If it's that ingrained in the culture, how can you explain its sudden disappearance?

It would provide a distinction between civilians and the military.

Uniforms and their accessories do that, don't they? I understand the idea of paying proper respect in a military fashion, but bowing does that. It worked for the Imperial Japanese military, after all, and when proper respect needed to be done quickly, a simple "Yessir!" or Yamataian equivalent does the job.

I prefer to keep the bowing.

It fits with the Japanese genre that Yamatai has.

If you must add a salute, I would prefer it be used by personnel like Sentries so that when an officer approaches they can acknowledge them without having to divert the attention. But other than that. No Salute for me.

I started doing some historical research and found that back in the YSS Yui plot, several key characters, including Chiharu, salute Yui. I'm not sure when exactly the bowing became the norm, but it had to be sometime before the Sakura.

The ship coasted down onto the platform quietly and the man slowly walked up to it. A side-door opened and the Qel`noran found himself staring at an empty ship. He laid his bags down on the floor. He then walked over to the pilot and asked "Is this shuttle heading to Fenyar?" The neko nodded politely back to him and then he sat returned to his seat. A few moments later the GSS Hana-Shôbu II lifted off yet again, the sound of the engines lulling Sgzyr to sleep.

He nodded but didn't really know where to report to, The bridge seemed a good enough, "Itto Hei Andrew reporting," He said as he saluted Ayame by bringing his left hand up to his chest.

[GSS Celia/ Planet of Fenyar] A Cook's Homecoming

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After a few short moments Wazu opened his eyes and looked at Alexis as the computer withdrew the connection cables, "Hello" he said as he sat up in the chair

"Taisa Alexis Jaren, reporting for duty," Alexis said, standing at attention with a US military salute.

Wazu stood up rubbing his temple slightly, "there is no need for that Alexis,” He said with a smile although he saluted back in accordance with tradition.

The shifter smiled slightly and relaxed a bit. "It was the polite thing to do." He shrugged. "What is my first assignment?"

GSS Seigi

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At some point around the Plumeria plot, bows became the norm and saluting was discouraged:

Blinking away the lingering surprise at her Commanding Officer's stature, Leiko glanced down at her bag, before giving Hanako a small grin, "I'm okay, ma'am." She then went to attention, and saluted, "Permission to come aboard, ma'am?"

It was probably unnecessary, but as she had been taught, so she would do.

"Of course," Hanako nodded. She then stood there watching Leiko for a moment, as if expecting something.

Pulling a neatly folded document out of her pocket, Leiko handed Hanako a printed copy of her orders, subtly shifting her weight as she contemplated her Commanding Officer, and what little she'd managed to read of her exploits, along with the other's who'd served under her aboard this ship.

The captain seemed somewhat disappointed. "Fuyutsuki-Jôtô Hei," she said, taking the orders. "An enlisted soldier must bow to her superior officer, as it is written in the regulations of the Star Army. While I will not always ask it of you, especially on a small ship, this is our first meeting and I am disappointed to see you forgetting the courtesy that is expected of you."

YSS Sakura Mission 2

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At this point, the bows are expected.

Based on the above, it looks like bowing was once in the Star Army Regulations but it is no longer in there.

I question that second example, only because it seems like the player is new. Then again, so was Fuyutsuki.

I remember when bowing was part of the regulations and you would be smacked if you didn't bow. Or it was allowed to smack the person who forgot to bow. Yosef got in trouble for that, I think.

In early-mid Nozomi days, you had a cheerful/genki new neko character board the ship and give excited greetings to people around (including Yui) only to have Hinosami punish her with a bit of ice magic (that's what it was). It kind of chilled the mood.

It was clear that it was punishment for failure to bow. Bowing seemed to be the very specific intent there (unless my memory is addled and that it was 'paying proper respect to a CO), but it's my impression that bowing became expected and mainstream around the Nozomi / around the point when the ship were preceded by YSS instead of GSS.

I thought I even saw it as a rule on a webpage around the point I joined and created Kotori. It's certainly always been bowing for me, way before the Plumeria.

At first when I joined Yamataian plot I was a little surprised that they were bowing instead of saluting. But after a while I found out that it is actually pretty nice. After all it does makes Yamatai a little more special, gives them more asian background we all know Yamatai is about. Saluting would make it all go away I think and make it just... just like everyone else. I see no need to do that. So yeah I agree with Kyle and most of others. I would like for SAoY to keep bowing.

Well, I know I said this in the Aeon plot but I'll repeat here.

Post-1868, the Imperial Japanese Army did salute so as to operate just like all Western-style armies. So, at the moment, we're just picking and choosing which parts of Japanese culture and tradition we want. There is, for example, no hint of a SARP equivalent to State/Shrine Shinto (not to be confused with other forms of Shinto) that honored the war dead, demanded sacrifice for the Emperor and overall, encouraged militaristic ultranationalism in Japan, post Meiji Restoration.

I'm not ethnically Japanese, I'm ethnically Chinese but our cultures are similar enough in certain regards. Bowing is more respectful by its reduced frequency and implied greater formality. Also, my university thesis is about the Japanese military as seen by society.

So, what must be solved first is what do the members of SARP consider to be the kind of Japan they envision. Right now, the closest equivalent Yamatai has historically is Japan post-Restoration but prior to the Satsuma Rebellion. There's a central, Imperial military but also there is still the presence of a lot of the old samurai values (which disappeared for a while then reappeared in the 20s and 30s). That was a time of transition where the national army and samurai class had to co-exist uneasily. The Rebellion ended any hope of a return of the samurai class.

But as I said, samurai values returned in 20s and 30s to the Army and Navy with the rise of militarism and ultranationalism. Is that the Japan we want? Xenophobic, militaristic and suspicious of the racist colonial Europeans and Americans?

I saw someone mention feudal aspects. If we were to be like Feudal Japan, the whole social structure of Yamatai would have to change to reflect the semi-Confucian order. Samurai at the top, followed by peasants, then artisans, with merchants at the bottom of society. Even then, what period of feudal Japan? Sengoku-jidai? Heian era? Tokugawa?

At this point, the introduction of saluting would not be inaccurate. Bowing was also done by the Imperial Japanese Army. Saluting was generally used sort of like a less formal military acknowledgment. Bowing was more formal and for showing respect while acknowledging something.

I realize I am presenting moulds and suggesting we fit Yamatai into one. But that is because I wish to know what the general desire is - the Japanese Empire at the height of its power or feudal Japan with a myriad of differing clan cultures?

Eh Sigma. Don'T get too much into it. Yamatai is japanese-like it is not japanese. I actualy even used word asian for the feel I get from bowing and not japanese. And I bet most people here envisions the japanese society and its use of bow and polite greeting ang took it to SAoY too. I mean I do not really care if actualy japanese army every saluted or not. We do not need to consider it important for us.

I propose that the Star Army allows both:

- an approved type of salute
- the traditional bow

The purpose is to show respect for military superiors. Either accomplishes this.

I have a question. Why should we suddenly change this? I mean we were bowing fro the whole time, why should we put salute into it too? I see no reason.

Personally I like Nash's idea, saluting, if we need to have it, should only be for sentries.

Saluting is more intuitive for new players and I hate having my characters have to take their eyes off of people. When I was playing Yuumi recently, it occurred to me that bowing is for civilians.

That's because according to tradition, Yuumi shouldn't bow to anyone but her own Empress.