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Ship to Ship Combat and FTL

CadetNewb

Well-Known Member
I'm probably missing something here, but I don't see a guide for this, so I've no clue how the two interact with each other. It's well known that fighting while in FTL is not allowed, but how does FTL affect combat while two opposing forces are in the same system? I've done some of it before, but in hindsight, a lot of it was just winging it.

If two separate ships or fleets are in the same system, but are separated by hours of STL travel time, do they try and close the gap using a short-jump, or do they get close the old fashioned way? The former makes staying in a system yet avoiding combat much more difficult, since the enemy will keep short-jumping close, while the latter makes evasion much more easy.

I need to clarify for certain what I'm reading in the starship speed guide too - ships have speeds for short-jumps in a system, and speeds for traveling from one system to another?

Finally and, just to be sure, when jumping into a system, we pretty much pick where we arrive at? None of that harder sci-fi stuff where we arrive at the outer rim of the system and fly inwards the old-fashioned way, right?
 
I guess it depends on the technology of each ship, but any vessel with a CDD-style FTL drive is able to quickly get to the battlefield (or battle-space in this situation) with a short "jump". However, it can equally be true that vessels could use the same FTL concept to make a short "jump" away from the battle-space as well. This can make it much harder for a skirmish to happen if one side or the other didn't particularly want to fight since combat is listed as impossible during FTL maneuvers in the setting.

At that point, one side would just have to give up on chase (or escaping).

For the Abwehrans, I actually hold to some strict guidelines for FTL. CDD-style drives are unable to be operated while in the gravity well of a planet, but can be used to climb out of a star's gravity well. Fold Drive can only be activated at a certain distance away from a star (normally dependent upon the star's size and type).
 
In Star Army, since the 2011 setting revisions, the idea is that FTL is for travel between systems and ships arrive near the system's hill sphere border and then STL their way to the planets they way to visit.
 
In Star Army, since the 2011 setting revisions, the idea is that FTL is for travel between systems and ships arrive near the system's hill sphere border and then STL their way to the planets they way to visit.

Hill Sphere Border is rather vague. Is it the edge of the system itself, such as the kuiper belt or is it a point where gravity is weak enough for it to have minimal effect on the FTL travel calculations? Or is it at the edge of the termination shock zone? The Heliosphere?
 
The Starship Combat guide clearly says its the planet Hill Sphere

The Hill sphere for Earth extends out to about 1.5 million km (0.01 AU).
 
Ah, so it's planetary rather than system. I could see that for the CDD, which simply warps the fabric of space-time in order to move space around the ship, but I really can't see a fold drive operating that deep in a star's hill sphere.
 
Discussion for another time. The Hill Sphere for a planet is a compromise. It keeps ships from folding in orbit and bombing the planet. If you put some sort of system wide boundary, you would make travel in/out of system fairly tedious.

Using .4 C which is technically faster than any ship is allowed these days.

If you use the orbit of Jupiter, you are looking at a travel time of 1.8 hours
Should you decide to use Neptune the furthest planet since Pluto got downgraded, its 10.43 hours
Throw in pluto and you are looking at 13.6 hours.

If you take the speed down to .2 C which on our table is average for advanced cultures. that's 3.6 hours or 20.86 hours or 26.6 at STL
 
Outside a hill sphere, it's free game with an FTL drive. Got it. I know it's a different discussion Nash, but since my initial questions are answered, we might as well look into this other topic while we're here.

To be honest, I highly recommend having that 'tedious' travel time - space is VAST, and being in orbit is not necessary to bombard a planet. Munitions can be fired at it from well outside the hill sphere, and though they can be intercepted, there's always that risk of some getting through. And energy weapons are nightmarish. Besides their light-speed travel time, Earth's hill sphere radius is just a bit more than 1 million kilometers, and the Plumeria's main gun has a range of 300 million km. If we want to feasibly intercept ships before they get in practical bombardment ranges, the Kuiper Belt is the much better option. It even seems like Wes meant to go by the Kuiper Belt rather than the Hill Sphere of planets, since a system doesn't have one.
 
I'm pretty sure that if planets do, so do their stars.

But yeah, the FTL border is supposed to be a system thing.
 
The Hill Sphere idea had potential, but doesn't deal well with extremes.

There's also the matter of SARP's weapon and sensor ranges being out of whack too.

As I see it, SARP has 3 propulsion requirements for its narrative:
1. In-combat speed. Which is, narratively, knife-fight thruster propelled fights like you see in most action-oriented sci-fi.
This is mostly a level to retain a series of contradictory requirements. You need to have various weapon types, from slower railguns, guided warheads and instant-firing beams be relevant - especially on delay-to-impact considerations. You need to have speeds that allow a degree of orbital travel which being able to navigate through obstacles in space fast enough to make them relevant to the narrative. You need to be able to interact with various units sizes from power armor, fightercraft to starships.

2. In-system travel speed. Which is, basically, the speed you travel at which needs to be notably higher than the low speeds you need to support knife-fights in space.
This is the speed at which ship need to travel when not in combat, but not warping around. SARP has required warships to do jumps at this speed as well (I call them tactical jumps, Wes calls them microfold jumps - the truth is, with the distances involved, it's all sublight travel). This is mostly a deal of finding excuses for ships not to constantly be traveling at that speed in order to make them vulnerable enough to motivate the close knife-fights without a plethora of superluminal maneuvers.

The Hill Sphere may be an imperfect solution (it deals badly with extremes; i.e.: Earth vs Jupiter), but its base notion had some merit. Fights in outer space would be a spagheti FTL-maneuver making efficient weapon use shown by our narrative far-fetched without going back to the FTL torpedo (laser+1). But then, there's little reason to fight out in outer space because there's nothing out there. This makes the one thing of value in the universe, resource nodes like asteroids/planetoids/planets carry a degree of greater importance. Hence, it's useless to leave a force into empty space, so you'll cluster them around points you need to defend (the Nepleslians understood this sooner than Yamatai did). So, in implying that a ship is affected by a Hill Sphere and forced to slow down, we're also applying a consentual - if non-verbalized - notion that "if we go there, we have to slow to sublight, and we become vulnerable to attack).

The notion of 'sublight jumps', to me, comes with a caveat. Since we're all based on mass and gravity considerations, in my opinion briefly countering it required compensation that carried a tactical price - a risk - and that was dropping the shielding (which is treated - in majority - as gravimetric) in order to squeeze out that brief jump.

There's a way of 'interdicting' movement, even those brief jumps - and what replaced the interdiction systems we used a couple of years ago (very inconsistently) is simple applications of graviton beams on the target (which do work, anyways, if the target is unshielded). Or otherwise cause direct damage on the vessel/use specialized ammunition (subspace detonation; brief, but can ruin someone's day).

3. Intra-stellar travel. That's the hyperspace fold drive. Regardless of how fast it goes, it's your means of travelling from one star system to another.

Fold implies a similar weakness to sublight travel. Be close enough to a big center of mass, and you won't be able to manage to charge a fold jump (or it'll take more time/more power). Except fold is much pickier than sublight is. Interdiction is the same; apply a graviton beam on the target.

...

From what I can see. Wes doesn't fancy travelling in space in the way of making long sea voyages. Little to do, not a good vehicle for narrative. Slowing ships down in star systems however reverses that a bit. You're forced to look and interact with an environment that does have objects, where the layout of a star system does become more relevant. I've found that SARP, in the past, trivialized star systems a lot (planets are trivialized too - we could have most of the content in SARP actually be different cities on a single planet; or we could have different empires actually be different planets in a star system considering how most races are a spin on humans) and the Hill Sphere notion does comfort me with them becoming a bit more relevant simply due to most of the action happening at the periphery of every planet.

Maybe there's a better solution, but the considerations between points 1, 2 and 3 above need to be balanced out for that. That means needing to deal with a lot of stuff to have it balance against each other.
 
Fred's got some very good points. Fast travel between systems, slow travel once in a system and even slower speeds for combat is ideal. And we'd honestly have to decelerate to combat speed, otherwise relativistic effects make every single bit of targeting data just plain weird. Point 2 light is a pretty good standard combat speed I see in some of the harder Sci-Fi stuff out there.

Also, I think I just realized what Wes was meaning; it was the Hill Sphere of the SUN! Not the planets. He meant the Heliosphere! It's a 121 AU radius for where the Heliopause is for ours, but that'd do the trick.
 
Sun doesn't have a hillsphere because it has no other object for the calculation. Using the heliosphere with and estimated 121 AU and going with a conservative .25 C for travel, you are talking 2.79 days to get out of the system or in to the desired planet.
 
Hill Spheres are rather synonymous with gravity wells, considering they're both a mathematical and conceptual method of demonstrating gravitational effects of stellar objects. The fact that planets orbit the sun means that the sun does have a hill sphere. In fact, it is believed that the maximum distance an object can orbit the Sun is approximately 2.37 light years. However, it tends to be shorter due to various factors such as radiation pressure and perturbations. You could consider the Outer Oort Cloud regions to be the edge of the Sun's hill sphere.
 
That's something I thought about before. My rationalization for it was that the FTL system had an ability to compensate for some degree of exposure to gravity wells. A star system's sun(s), to a degree, can be coped with. It's the addition of any additional bodies within that gravity well that complicates things.

If our FTL was hyper-sensitive to every exposure to gravity, we'd never get anywhere. I'm assuming that with this settings penchant for high affinity to gravity-related technology that there are ways to compensate for that. Just, not entirely.

As for orbital speed, I'm kind of the mind that it'd likely be the same kind of speeds we'd see a ship travel in the atmosphere of a planet, without the resistance of the atmosphere taken into account, but without much in the way of acceleration acknowledged as well (due to inertialess drive systems that are usually running, allowing us to skip over a bunch of newtonian considerations). Spaceships are probably at least as fast as the escape velocity required to escape Earth.

The problem, though, is that we can't base ourselves on just Earth. The standard for that is clearly not the same as the one to attain escape velocity to escape the gravity well of the Abwehran homeworld. Or to manage away from the gravity well of a gas giant (i.e.: Jupiter). OIf course, inertialess drives could again come into consideration... but what if they fail?

Figuring a baseline capturing most of that would provide the kind of speeds a starship is expected to have to be able to navigate around any planetary bodies.
 
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In response to Abwehran, yeah. And I think this is what lead to the confusion. Wes was referring to the gravitational field of the system's star - for a planet, that's a Hill Sphere. However, the local star doesn't technically have one thanks to how we measure and name it to begin with. It's called the Heliosphere instead. Awehran is right in that the Heliosphere is around 2.37 light years. The 121 AU measure is actually the Heliopause, which is much, much closer in but still a decent enough ways away from a place like Pluto for an example, that there's plenty of buffer to guard even that. It's where galactic radiation and solar radiation sort of cancel out. Even then, as you noticed Nash, that's 2.79 days if they're traveling at 0.25c.

Personally, I think that's a good thing, as it actually does give space a sense of scale again. It starts to show us just how big it is, and how astoundingly fast we'er traveling at. IC Boredom can even be addressed if a GM wants to, though that can be avoided with a timeskip. Unless a plot is deliberately avoiding timeskips, it shouldn't provide any problems I think.

Fred brings up another good point though. I'm not entirely sure how to compensate for this OOC, but I'm thinking.

We could try saying that a jump out of a system while still inside the Heliosphere is possible, but would be very inaccurate, take much longer to spool up, and if unlucky, would lead right into a collision. Basically have many negative consequences to that decision, making such a move very rare due to how pre-meditated it would have to be along with all the risk.

EDIT: I suddenly realize why it's necessary for the SAoY to be so 'flirty'
 
Actually, the heliosphere isn't really affected by a star's gravity. The heliosphere of a system is caused by the magnetic field of a star, the solar winds from the star, and the outside pressure of the interstellar medium. In essence, it's a soap bubble around the solar system that forms from these combination of factors and is distorted into an ovoid shape from the orbital velocity of the system around the galaxy's center.

So one doesn't really need to worry about gravity outside of the orbits that hold planets and celestial bodies since gravity isn't strong enough to capture anything beyond these distances.
 
Ugh, you're right. That's what I get for browsing through this stuff.

EDIT: What if we said that the combined effects of local gravity, as well as the star's electromagnetic field (Heliosphere) played havoc with our FTL systems instead? Sort of 'magravitic' effect?
 
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It's good to be an amateur astronomer. :3

It's possibly, but I don't think it's likely. Heck, a good faraday cage around the FTL drive would enable a ship to protect it from that sort of electromagnetic interference. I think the combination of a planet's gravity and a star's gravity is a good way to keep FTL from occurring. Heck, even being too close to a star (say distance between Mars and Sol) could be a good reason for FTL being inoperative enough for standard space travel to occur.

http://xkcd.com/681/

Something like the link above is a good example of the "gravity well" spaceships would have to "climb" out of to get into FTL.
 
The problem though, is that the original intent seems to be for us to be unable to perform FTL jumps while in-system. Basically having to take our time and travel STL to exit the outer edges before making a jump in addition to only being able to perform an FTL jump from system to system, and landing on those same outer edges. For our own system for an example, we'd likely end up dropping out of FTL maybe 30 AU from Pluto.

What phenomena would do that to our FTL drives you think? I'm left scratching my head. Though we can just establish the rule, it would end up implying many things about our drives and put it all up for speculation, as Fred pointed out. Alternatively, we can say that the FTL drives simply behave that way, dropping out at a somewhat arbitrary point despite being able to compensate for fluctuations in gravity, and that our characters have no idea why since it's a machine doing crazy things and warping time/space anyways.
 
I was thinking...if the "FTL exclusion zone" around stars is big enough, it would essentially help to solve the travel time issue that the map rescaling request tried to address earlier.

In the RP, I've generally stuck to my ship arriving "at the edge of the X star system."
 
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