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'Sophia' Bio-Neural System
- Thread starter Zakalwe
- Start date
OsakanOne
Retired Member
I'm touched.
Honestly? Nice to hear this, coming from a veteran of these boards.
I still think you need to take care of the pressure problem. To quote something I said during the last JP to Harrikke/Jo...
Either way, it's up to you but you need to find a way of moving such dense material in tiny parts safely without cutting the insides to ribbons.
If anyone's curious, I have a little guideline I use whenever I want to make a submission:
1) Read around. Know what you're writing about or at least have abasic knowledge.
2) Sit on it for a week or more before submitting it. This is when the brilliant revelation to make it a squillion times better or fixing that crucial thing that would ruin it usually happens.
3) Doodle a little during this time. If you can't visualize it, how are your players supposed to? This is the most recent lesson I've learned and one I think would be the most useful.
4) Make some spider diagrams and try to get all your concepts and see how they link together. If technologies work together, group them and understand the links and how to use them to your advantage.
5) Think about cause and effect and try to break these two apart from one another. Effect is what other roleplayers need to know so word it coercly. Cause is what people here want to know and they want to compare cause and effect to see if the work in cause justifies the effect.
6) Write it in a text editor first but try to avoid stuff like word. Textedit or notepad is nice. You really need to see everything at once so you can fix mistakes and see how your submission document "looks".
6) Break things up. Try to split things into sections and don't just have a mishmash of 4 to 5 paragraphs. Surprisingly, breaking up 3 paragraphs to describe a particular function of a technology into sections may seem long-winded at first but it makes for surprisingly easy reading because you "know where you are" while reading. Chapters perform the same function.
7) Proof read. I cannot stress this enough.
8) Before you submit it, for christs sake, get someone else to have a flick through it. Preferebly someone who you know isn't afraid to tell it to you straight.
And with that, I bid farewell.
PS: I know I sound hippocritical because of the TCC Version 3/Winter Frame thread but trust me, I've spent the last week re-writing that and producing sketches. You'll see them soon enough.
Karma Mechanic
Inactive Member
Neural fibers are extremely small, I would imagine that a fair amount of this system is to, I wouldn't expect that it would really increase the overall volume/mass too much.
Strangelove
Inactive Member
*Points to above quote of himself*
Technically it is possible. But is Wes okay with what appears to be such a huge technological leap forward? I mean, plugging in a high-powered camera (Tom's submission) or basic Nepeslian neural implants is one thing, but this device is extremely powerful in potential in the fact it both understands can tweak synapses connections. Things like mass mind control and making ST facilities obsolete should be a short step away if you can develop cognotech this advanced.
Zakalwe
Inactive Member
Actually I don't see so much of a power issue.
The 'ST' takes days to do properly, rather than the minute or two at most for ST technology. The implant has inbuilt defences against external control, and can't transmit to non-technological sources.
It's a far less advanced technology than ST, and done in a way I can understand. I honestly don't understand the principle behind ST.
In addition to this NovaCorp uses a different technological tradition to Yamatai and Nepleslia.
The 'ST' takes days to do properly, rather than the minute or two at most for ST technology. The implant has inbuilt defences against external control, and can't transmit to non-technological sources.
It's a far less advanced technology than ST, and done in a way I can understand. I honestly don't understand the principle behind ST.
In addition to this NovaCorp uses a different technological tradition to Yamatai and Nepleslia.
Strangelove
Inactive Member
Zakalwe said:
Taking a photograph -- a map of the composition, placement, and state of every single neuron and synapses in the brain -- is the only (scientifically plausible) way to copy human consciousness that I know of. However, due to the ever-fluctuating nature of the human brain, you would need the to record the entire brain within a split second. Anything longer than that would cause the backups to have synapses conflicts. Tom's device does it in ten minutes, which he acknowledged results can cause minor psychological and memory damage each time a backup is restored. But doing it over days would make the neural net map so horribly corrupt that crippling psychological damage would be the norm.
And in regards of power, I'm not talking about the product itself, but rather the fact that you can produce a microscopic network that had the intelligence to fully analyze, comprehend, and even modify the interplay of the quadrillions of components of a human brain. Such extreme levels of computational power would make each capable of processing information hundreds, thousands, (or possibly even more) times faster than the human brain itself. Thats not including that the recording of both short-term and long-term memories would require many times more storage capacity than the human brain has -- possibly even hundreds/thousands of times more, if the user didn't have to purge their memories regularly or dump them onto a external computer. Human brains discard 99.99% of their short-term memories for a darn good reason; Remembering everything, or even a tiny portion of everything would require huge amounts of storage capacity.
When these two things are factored together this thing must be the equivalent to an a starship AI in computational power and memory. But based on the fact that Nekos only have human-level intelligence, such neurological rewiring and miniaturization of computers must be beyond the capacity of current tech levels -- even that of Yamatai itself. Thus the power issue: What's to stop someone from hacking out parts of the human brain and replacing it with bigger versions of this device, thus creating cyborgs as intelligent as starship AI? Or what's to stop anyone with a decent scientific team from simply capturing one of these and tweaking the programming slightly to create a ready-made form of mass mind control?
Even security systems wouldn't phase would-be power brokers due to the value of this technology. Neko femtotech and hemosynthetic regeneration is one thing, but 95% complete mind control technology and portable hyperintelligence is of an entirely different value. I imagine many factions would be willing to pour huge sums of money into developing tech to break defenses, or even bribing NovaCorp and hiring elite agents to infiltrate the corporation so they can steal the development processes.
Firstly, Zakalwe took a convulted way of explaining the thing. I also don't think something not 1/10th of the size of a brain would be able to give a substancial resistance to EMP. Also, it's yet another excuse to have people have telepathy. We already have other artificial means, like the nepleslian cybernetic components for example.
The average space between the inner face of a human skull and the nervous tissue contained is substantial in biological scale terms, considering the flagellation of the exterior of the brain. An organism that grew AROUND the brain would certainly be able to grow out to touch the skull and in to touch the brain. This explanation also allows for the protection from EMP systems, although I will not speculate as to how this is achieved.
However, the place where that settles is made for a new lifeofrm to form and grow, while the brain is hardly the place for it. There are capiilaries and immune reactions to take into account here.
As stated, the organism is tailored to take into account the genetic structure of the user. Taking into account the fact that this essentially means that the system will use the same chemical identifiers and cell ports as the user's brain and bodily cells themselves, immune reactions are not an issue.
Capillaries are blood vessels and have no relevance to your argument.
For god's sake do you not know thwe makeup of the brain?
The veins are outside the brain, they're attached to the sack that protects it. Also, even with it being spreadout, it's still added mass and volume!
And Neko's are living, breathing semi-organic machines. They're ment to be that mentally efficent.
Shut up and get yourself a ghost writer. Your arguments are nothing short of a child's insults and your spelling is atrocious.
Okay, the first issue I can see here is the lattacue and the egg/growth process itself.
How does this not introduce unwanted pressure (which is potentially catastrophic) within the brain? (this is a recurring problem)
See answer to criticism #1.
You cannot theoretically "unlock" the processing speed of the brain as you've stated. You've said the speed is risen. The brain itself is not slow by any means. It's problem is the fact it's "underclocked" so a fairly specific number of neurons fire per second or less otherwise the brain overheats and again, catastrophic damage becomes a problem.
Truth. I have no complaint with this criticism.
Total recall is a very very dangerous thing psychologically. If an individual cannot bury unplesant events, they tend to move into depression (a process which not only lowers the amount of dopamine in the brain but lowers recall. Depressed people have really crappy memory). This will become a vicious cycle and you'll find your test subjects throwing themselves out of 40 story hospital windows: the patient or subject is going to unwire themselves psychologically trying to switch it off.
Then perhaps selective forgetting is an option to be added. An excellent tool for one-shot spies.
There is no such thing as a symbiote in such terms: It is an engineered parasite with a useful engineered feedback. They still act like parasites in regards to the immune system: They're wonderful until they're compromised or damaged and the immune system attacks, thinking it's foreign tissue and then you risk brain damage because of the incurred swelling (and thus pressure in the skull which if it isn't vented with either a cordavol or a lumbar puncture, it's very very nasty to watch). Please tell me you've covered this.
See answer to criticism #2.
How the hell can the lattice do all that then?!
I'm getting sick of you already. Again.
Technically it is possible. But is Wes okay with what appears to be such a huge technological leap forward? I mean, plugging in a high-powered camera (Tom's submission) or basic Nepeslian neural implants is one thing, but this device is extremely powerful in potential in the fact it both understands can tweak synapses connections. Things like mass mind control and making ST facilities obsolete should be a short step away if you can develop cognotech this advanced.
The Star Army and related bodies have the ability to form matter from energy, manipulate string theory for weaponisation and form living creatures from nano-machines. This is indeed a huge step forward from such things... Isn't it? Someone tell me it is, just to make me sure I'm not being retarded! PLEASE!??
And in regards of power, I'm not talking about the product itself, but rather the fact that you can produce a microscopic network that had the intelligence to fully analyze, comprehend, and even modify the interplay of the quadrillions of components of a human brain. Such extreme levels of computational power would make each capable of processing information hundreds, thousands, (or possibly even more) times faster than the human brain itself. Thats not including that the recording of both short-term and long-term memories would require many times more storage capacity than the human brain has -- possibly even hundreds/thousands of times more, if the user didn't have to purge their memories regularly or dump them onto a external computer. Human brains discard 99.99% of their short-term memories for a darn good reason; Remembering everything, or even a tiny portion of everything would require huge amounts of storage capacity.
A system with the ability to manipulate individual stored molecules for data storage (which would, incidentally, have around the same capacity per cell-size space as a human brain) is a simple option in this case, thus rendering your argument worthless. Good day. (And on the subject of feasibility, I would refer you to the technology level of the previous answer. And also tell you to explain to me how the brain achieves the same function autonomously.)
When these two things are factored together this thing must be the equivalent to an a starship AI in computational power and memory. But based on the fact that Nekos only have human-level intelligence, such neurological rewiring and miniaturization of computers must be beyond the capacity of current tech levels -- even that of Yamatai itself. Thus the power issue: What's to stop someone from hacking out parts of the human brain and replacing it with bigger versions of this device, thus creating cyborgs as intelligent as starship AI? Or what's to stop anyone with a decent scientific team from simply capturing one of these and tweaking the programming slightly to create a ready-made form of mass mind control?
Computational power was never mentioned. This is a dumb system – a smaller, faster, larger-capacity HDD if you will. Now kindly stop spewing up your breakfast onto the page, it's horrible to watch and smells odd.
Even security systems wouldn't phase would-be power brokers due to the value of this technology. Neko femtotech and hemosynthetic regeneration is one thing, but 95% complete mind control technology and portable hyperintelligence is of an entirely different value. I imagine many factions would be willing to pour huge sums of money into developing tech to break defenses, or even bribing NovaCorp and hiring elite agents to infiltrate the corporation so they can steal the development processes.
It is one thing, isn't it. And so is this. And many factions would already be willing to do that. And it's not hyperintelligence, although if you think so then perhaps you could do with the system. It might enable you to read the descriptions placed in front of you.
And now, bidding you Adieu...
Your unfriendly not-so-local argument crusher, signing off.
I'm not dead.
D=<
The average space between the inner face of a human skull and the nervous tissue contained is substantial in biological scale terms, considering the flagellation of the exterior of the brain. An organism that grew AROUND the brain would certainly be able to grow out to touch the skull and in to touch the brain. This explanation also allows for the protection from EMP systems, although I will not speculate as to how this is achieved.
However, the place where that settles is made for a new lifeofrm to form and grow, while the brain is hardly the place for it. There are capiilaries and immune reactions to take into account here.
As stated, the organism is tailored to take into account the genetic structure of the user. Taking into account the fact that this essentially means that the system will use the same chemical identifiers and cell ports as the user's brain and bodily cells themselves, immune reactions are not an issue.
Capillaries are blood vessels and have no relevance to your argument.
For god's sake do you not know thwe makeup of the brain?
The veins are outside the brain, they're attached to the sack that protects it. Also, even with it being spreadout, it's still added mass and volume!
And Neko's are living, breathing semi-organic machines. They're ment to be that mentally efficent.
Shut up and get yourself a ghost writer. Your arguments are nothing short of a child's insults and your spelling is atrocious.
Okay, the first issue I can see here is the lattacue and the egg/growth process itself.
How does this not introduce unwanted pressure (which is potentially catastrophic) within the brain? (this is a recurring problem)
See answer to criticism #1.
You cannot theoretically "unlock" the processing speed of the brain as you've stated. You've said the speed is risen. The brain itself is not slow by any means. It's problem is the fact it's "underclocked" so a fairly specific number of neurons fire per second or less otherwise the brain overheats and again, catastrophic damage becomes a problem.
Truth. I have no complaint with this criticism.
Total recall is a very very dangerous thing psychologically. If an individual cannot bury unplesant events, they tend to move into depression (a process which not only lowers the amount of dopamine in the brain but lowers recall. Depressed people have really crappy memory). This will become a vicious cycle and you'll find your test subjects throwing themselves out of 40 story hospital windows: the patient or subject is going to unwire themselves psychologically trying to switch it off.
Then perhaps selective forgetting is an option to be added. An excellent tool for one-shot spies.
There is no such thing as a symbiote in such terms: It is an engineered parasite with a useful engineered feedback. They still act like parasites in regards to the immune system: They're wonderful until they're compromised or damaged and the immune system attacks, thinking it's foreign tissue and then you risk brain damage because of the incurred swelling (and thus pressure in the skull which if it isn't vented with either a cordavol or a lumbar puncture, it's very very nasty to watch). Please tell me you've covered this.
See answer to criticism #2.
How the hell can the lattice do all that then?!
I'm getting sick of you already. Again.
Technically it is possible. But is Wes okay with what appears to be such a huge technological leap forward? I mean, plugging in a high-powered camera (Tom's submission) or basic Nepeslian neural implants is one thing, but this device is extremely powerful in potential in the fact it both understands can tweak synapses connections. Things like mass mind control and making ST facilities obsolete should be a short step away if you can develop cognotech this advanced.
The Star Army and related bodies have the ability to form matter from energy, manipulate string theory for weaponisation and form living creatures from nano-machines. This is indeed a huge step forward from such things... Isn't it? Someone tell me it is, just to make me sure I'm not being retarded! PLEASE!??
And in regards of power, I'm not talking about the product itself, but rather the fact that you can produce a microscopic network that had the intelligence to fully analyze, comprehend, and even modify the interplay of the quadrillions of components of a human brain. Such extreme levels of computational power would make each capable of processing information hundreds, thousands, (or possibly even more) times faster than the human brain itself. Thats not including that the recording of both short-term and long-term memories would require many times more storage capacity than the human brain has -- possibly even hundreds/thousands of times more, if the user didn't have to purge their memories regularly or dump them onto a external computer. Human brains discard 99.99% of their short-term memories for a darn good reason; Remembering everything, or even a tiny portion of everything would require huge amounts of storage capacity.
A system with the ability to manipulate individual stored molecules for data storage (which would, incidentally, have around the same capacity per cell-size space as a human brain) is a simple option in this case, thus rendering your argument worthless. Good day. (And on the subject of feasibility, I would refer you to the technology level of the previous answer. And also tell you to explain to me how the brain achieves the same function autonomously.)
When these two things are factored together this thing must be the equivalent to an a starship AI in computational power and memory. But based on the fact that Nekos only have human-level intelligence, such neurological rewiring and miniaturization of computers must be beyond the capacity of current tech levels -- even that of Yamatai itself. Thus the power issue: What's to stop someone from hacking out parts of the human brain and replacing it with bigger versions of this device, thus creating cyborgs as intelligent as starship AI? Or what's to stop anyone with a decent scientific team from simply capturing one of these and tweaking the programming slightly to create a ready-made form of mass mind control?
Computational power was never mentioned. This is a dumb system – a smaller, faster, larger-capacity HDD if you will. Now kindly stop spewing up your breakfast onto the page, it's horrible to watch and smells odd.
Even security systems wouldn't phase would-be power brokers due to the value of this technology. Neko femtotech and hemosynthetic regeneration is one thing, but 95% complete mind control technology and portable hyperintelligence is of an entirely different value. I imagine many factions would be willing to pour huge sums of money into developing tech to break defenses, or even bribing NovaCorp and hiring elite agents to infiltrate the corporation so they can steal the development processes.
It is one thing, isn't it. And so is this. And many factions would already be willing to do that. And it's not hyperintelligence, although if you think so then perhaps you could do with the system. It might enable you to read the descriptions placed in front of you.
And now, bidding you Adieu...
Your unfriendly not-so-local argument crusher, signing off.
I'm not dead.
D=<
Think next time you could be a little more civil, instead of boiling yourself down to the level of folks who also don't know how to good community members?
Haven't posted since 2006 ... goddamn. Thomas knows many people.
Haven't posted since 2006 ... goddamn. Thomas knows many people.
Civility is not my strong point unless I'm not depressed, exhausted, angry, going though relationship issues or up to my ears in work, college, code, college and code.
Unfortunately, all of the above apply to me.
I was enjoying a nice long sleep in my crypt of inactivity. Being summoned from the grave right when you're enjoying a good pina colada on the sunny side beach of the styx really puts blinkers on your day; I mean, my good suit is absolutely ruined.
Unfortunately, all of the above apply to me.
I was enjoying a nice long sleep in my crypt of inactivity. Being summoned from the grave right when you're enjoying a good pina colada on the sunny side beach of the styx really puts blinkers on your day; I mean, my good suit is absolutely ruined.
Ouch. Well, at least we know why now.
Strangelove
Inactive Member
Rob said:
This isn't retardation. It's a logical fallacy (I believe it's called affirming the consequent). The first law of thermodynamics, quantum theory, and metagenics have relatively little to do with mastery over neurotechnology.
Theoretically any race that can master femto-scale tech easily be able to engineer computing equipment billions of times more efficient than anything nanotech-based. So having Nekos with hundreds or thousands-- heck, billions of times smarter than your average human shouldn't be that difficult to achieve. Yet they're not. Not even a hundred times smarter, or ten times smarter. Perhaps neurotech in SARP is much more complex than it is modern theory indicates. Perhaps its because trying to roleplay Nekovalkyrja with billions of times their current intelligence would be problematic. Whatever the reason, it seems neurotech isn't as proportionately advanced as the other technologies of SARP.
See above argument, which seems to, incidentally, render this argument invalid. Nekovalkyrja and other SARP races don't seem to have even a tiny portion of their theoretical potential intelligence given SARP technology, for whatever reason.
I shall repeat myself: Something that actually understands what, how, and why the brain is doing something -- fully comprehending the interplay of quadrillions of synapses, and the effect each has on another -- would require a supercomputer of colossal proportions. Not only that, but the human mind is a non-linear system. To not only keep comprehend, keep pace with, but actually improve upon it would require Sophia to be above a certain (and significantly advanced) threshold of intelligence and learning capability. Adding a bit of extra programming, like 'do what boss wants' instead of 'do what owner wants' would not be a big stretch given that it's far from dumb.
Before someone tries this argument: Nepleslian implants are highly specialized in their function; Memory implants need only interact with the hippocampus, optical sensors the visual cortex, and so on. Watch what signals go through and follow programmed algorithms. But a device that actually comprehends the psychodynamics of the entire brain is an entirely different level of complexity, not unlike the comparison of attempting to electrically wire a house and attempting to wire an entire city block.
Actually, this bit wasn't being critical of the device itself, it's far from overpowered. I was merely pointing out to Zakalwe how it could effect the balance of power in SARP indirectly. (In regards to his comment: "Actually I don't see so much of a power issue.") Even if the device itself isn't very powerful, with some relatively minor modifications it can become a mind control device, or be made into bigger, bulker neuroprosthetics that could be used to create hyperintelligent beings. This is especially true if Yamatai become interested and mixes its femtotech in, thereby increasing the capacity of the device to undreamed levels.
The IC point for this is that the original human creators of the neko didn't want a race that much cleverer than them - disabling failsafes built into a sentient war machine is a simple matter if you ARE that war machine and you're millions of times cleverer than the people that put it there. You'll notice that even now, Neko rule the Yamataian empire.
OOCly... Can YOU roleplay something millions of times smarter than you? Would you WANT to?
I thought not.
See above argument.
A system that, as stated, DOES NOT COMPREHEND BUT SIMPLY STORES BRAIN PATTERNS ON A REGULAR BASIS (and read that several times so you get the idea) DOES NOT REQUIRE A WHOLE LOT OF PROCESSING POWER.
In a system that is a nanoscopic latice layered through a brain, and taking into account MODERN DAY imaging technology, this would not only be a simple task but a very quick one also. It might now catch -everything- in a passive state, but when activated to record a memory by the user, it would certainly act to be able to record and induce the same electrical patterns in the brain at a later date.
This is a MEMORY REDUNDANCY system. Will not restate self AGAIN.
Strangelove
Inactive Member
Rob said:
Pardon? I think I'm lost now...Weren't you just arguing that SARP should have said technology because it's possible to do other insanely advanced things (quantum weapons, life synthesis, etc)? I countered by the pointing out that cognotech would be ridiculously advanced if it was proportionate to other SARP technologies, and implied it must have been held back for non-technical reasons like OOC roleplay issues. But...how does elaborating on this fact render that argument invalid? Aren't you just enforcing my side of the discussion since you're pointing out that Yamatai hates advanced neurotech (and thus would likely suppress NovaCorp's attempts to develop it)? If they won't even use such advanced tech themselves, there's no way they'd let another faction, even an ally, have it.
______
How I'm currently understanding things...
Rob: "Weapons and metagenics are very advanced, so logically cognotech must be very advanced too."
Leutre: "That is a logical fallacy. If cognotech was as advanced as other scientific fields, everyone would already be several times smarter than they are in SARP. Technologically it's possible for cognotech to be much more advanced than it currently is, so there must be some other reason hampering it's development."
Rob: "XX and YY are the reasons cognotech development is hampered. Thus your argument is invalid."
Leutre: "Huh?"
Was there some miscommunication somewhere, or is this another logical fallacy?
______
It is not "simply storing brain patterns on a regular basis." At least a third of the article (the latest one, Zakalwe approved), is about non-memory functions. It mentions the ability to simulate the brain in order to perform the extremely detailed data scans for its security system. It mentions optimization; the (re)wiring of synapses in order to improve speed and functionality. It also mentions learning enhancement, by disrupting "wrong" synaptic connections.
Since the brain is a non-linear system, there is no set pattern for memory to follow at all, since each mind is unique (that is why you get the insane, the delusional, the suicidal, etc) a dumb implant is impossible; it would have to have the intelligence and learning ability far beyond that of your average psychologist order to understand the psychodynamics that drive each user's behavior. Furthermore the mind is in a constant state of flux, thus increasing the complexity of the matter to an entirely new level of difficulty. The fact such a system analyzes and calculates neural activity at faster than the speed of thought (based on the fact it improves thought time instead of reducing it) suggest a comprehension and processing ability exponentially more powerful and faster than any humanoid mind.
You can't really store "brain patterns" in the traditional sense, since thought is a combination of electrical, chemical, and neuromuscular synapses, coupled with the state, place, and composition of neuron cells. Yes, cells themselves; electric charges themselves are little more than electricity. This would require a flawless 3D compositional scanner (i.e., essentially a perfect nanoscale matter-to-information replicator) needed to record and interpret what each of these cells signifies, and how they effect others.
Even if you could memories in such a way they would be outside the mind, so to speak. There would be no synaptic connections in order to connect them to other parts of the brain. Kind of redundant to have memories you can't recall, doesn't it? Thus a Sophia would have to grow huge quantities of artificial synapses to connect these memory files (fake neurons) to the rest of the brain. Each neuron cell has up to tens of thousands of connections to other cells, so a system that could record a lifetime of memories perfectly (and therefore simulate huge number of neurons needed) would require monstrous quantities of synapses. Even with nano-scale engineering, all these synapses would add up and result in a serious intrusion of the brain, possibly causing damage directly or indirectly by obstructing blood flow or decreasing space (and increasing cranial pressure).
P.S. -- Modern day imaging technology is not anywhere near the ability to read the mind. CATs and MRIs can usually detect the state of brain mass such as bleeding or swelling, but little else. Other types can show activity via alternative methods such as measuring blood flow, oxygen flow, but are extremely low resolution (often hundreds or thousands of times worse than a neuron cell's size) and can only be used to point out which regions of the brain are "on," like the sound recognition or emotional memory centers. This is far from the precision needed to record individual electric, chemical, and neuromuscular activity.
P.P.S. -- Regardless of any personal issues, I hope you will endeavor to keep this as civil as possible. The internet already has plenty of cesspools for cap locks and mudslinging...but the SARP technology submissions forum isn't one of those places.
