What Do You Want To Fight?

[Wes]

Last night @Andrew and I had a great talk about a wide variety of things and one of the things we agreed on was that we should start laying the groundwork for the next "big bad" for some future war. Right now Star Army is in a peace phase where we're getting to recover, explore, and not worry about a big war. But eventually, we'll go into a war phase again and it would make sense for us to do that in a better way next time. Specifically, the Mishhuvurthyar have a lack of detail and Kuvexians even more so. The staff should put more effort into building up antagonists next time and that means some planning in advance. Then, when we finally get to reveal them in 2022 or whenever, we can hype them and launch them like an expansion pack for an MMO, with art and wiki pages and plot hooks ready for GMs to use.

So before we get into any of that design work, it makes sense to ask you, the players and GMs of Star Army: What do you want to see in an enemy? What excites you and makes you want to write action posts and villains? If you got some concepts or qualities that you think we should include when we start work on this, I'd love to hear them so we can provide something you'll love.

 

[Soban]

I don't feel like a Second Kuvexian war should be our next conflict. We don't need to rework the setting, so I don't think we are in the right place for civil wars OOCly. A third Mishhuvurthyar war is something that is personally attractive, as I haven't been here for one. However, I think our best option is actually to create a new group to have a conflict with. I think we should have a stable of 3-5 major setting antagonists who we can pick from and right now I feel we currently have two; Kuvexians and Mishhuvurthyar.

Regardless of who we decide to fight, I think we need to have a clear understanding of why the conflict is happening. One of the reasons that the Kuvexian conflict didn't work as well for me is the nebulous reasons to fight. They were a long way away and to me, it always seemed that they had much better opportunities closer to home. Remember, the whole of the empire can be crossed in a day or so by a fast ship and they were months away by fast ship. There was little danger of Kuvexia and Yamatai colliding for a long time.

Yamatai is not looking to expand, there aren't any resources it wants, Yamatai doesn't really have good reasons to go to war. Any peer power to Yamatai is going to also not really be limited in resources. Culturally wanting to expand, but when you have plenty of space to expand into, why do you need to expand here?

I think the better conflict would be over some unifying value that is worth fighting over. The sort of Communism vs Capitalism type thing. I think that for Yamatai as it is (without establishing a new value for us to fight over) would be funnily enough Egalitarianism vs 'Darwinism'. By 'Darwinism' I mean a culture that believes strongly that inequality is an obvious and inescapable fact. Their argument is something along the lines of 'species are different with different capabilities, some are strong others are weak, some are intelligent, others less so. Even within a race we see variations in intelligence, strength, and in every area. There is no reason to treat two beings of vastly different capabilities the same.'

Yamatai for all of it's flaws and hierarchies (we are an Empire after all) doesn't seem to believe in this. We have things about sapient rights and let people who aren't Neko serve in the military. This is partly due to all of the players believing in things like human rights and we OOCly wanting to have diverse crews.

Anyway, those are my thoughts. TLDR; We should make a new enemy and fight them because of our opposing ideologies.

 

[Alex Hart]

I think that whatever we do, we should take plenty of time IC, not just OOC, to recover from the war. Rushing headlong into a new war undermines the efforts being put forth right now to focus more on the civilian side of SARP. I also think that whatever enemy we develop, it should be designed first for interesting RP both in opposition to and in service of that adversary.

Finally, it should be developed (In conjunction with all Faction Managers, not just by staff) to have a compelling reason for conflict not just with Yamatai, but with all factions so as to avoid the pitfalls of previous wars, where players or factions felt/were excluded OOC and were then called cowardly IC.

 

[WinterRebelM78]

I had an idea for a group or a rogue faction that wants to steal some Yamataian Nekovalkyrja DNA and use it to create their own feline soldier army to unleash upon the galaxy. Not necessarily for galactic conquest, but more as a private military company. It'd be cool in my opinion to see how the Yamatai and its allies deal with their most powerful soldiers being used against them.

 

[Alex Hart]

In terms of what I might like to actually see for the conflict, I'd actually kind of like to see something low-intensity, not "If we lose the war everyone dies/is enslaved", and I'd kind of like to see allied forces lose a war for once. A proxy war might work nicely for this and be a change of pace. It's not likely to happen since it would mean the big factions aren't in a leading role, but while we're dreaming...

 

[Whisper]

Some general ideas:

• Yamatai civil war? I've heard hints of this sort of thing and I feel like, to some extent, the best enemy for something as established and powerful as Yamatai is itself. I'm not sure what the kicker or the outcome should be, but it's an option.
• I agree with Soban that a bench of 3-5 active and available antagonists is good (but Yam/Nep are so strong that it's hard for me to picture them not just wiping anything out unless it's a similarly major power. I'm still trying to wrap my head around how to make the scale work in an extended conflict)
• We could riff on Stellaris or other major sci-fi IPs..
  • 'War in Heaven' - a few superpowers in the area decide to take action for some reason. Civilization is too advanced, some flaw in their logic that makes them think some galaxy-ending threat is going to repeat itself, a new leader takes over and decides that they want to rule the sector (for our own good, of course), etc. They may not have the number of ships/soldiers we do, but what they do have is completely unbalanced against the sector's current forces
  • Invaders from beyond the sector - mild weakness here since it's similar to what happened with Kuvexia, but some sort of weird hive mind-y thing coming in from beyond the sector and slowly eating its way through the worlds could be an interesting, and long-lasting, conflict
  • Some sort of technological supremacy coming to, like the old God-tier Yam AIs rising up.
• Actual faction conflicts. We'd (largely?) avoid PVP and could plan out the course of the conflict, but it may be nice to have the factions fighting each other in some way that makes it feel like they all share a universe. It could be because of a secret Kuvexian remnant plot, the Mishu, etc, pulling the strings behind the scenes. Plots would/could involve taking territory, covert strikes, etc, etc..
  • I like this one because it offers a chance to shake up the map in a way I'd like to see (DMZs, more independent territories that are caught in the middle and can't be fully held by anyone, etc
  • Mild disconnect on this one with some of the international RP we've been discussing, but it might actually give that a lot of plot material for those into it
  • The leftover animosity after a conflict of this type might liven up the RP, too!
• Rather than a true big-bad, maybe some kind of exploration rush that opens up a new area on the map and gives all the factions new options SG:Atlantis style.
  • I'd prefer something that countered the new available territories, like some of the above options - I think the more we can do to have smaller/more concentrated territories on the map the better.
• Some major crisis that isn't exactly combat, but has major implications - like a new plague that starts hitting all the worlds simultaneously. Some evil corp could be behind it with backing from a major power (like the Kuvexian remnants)
• Some neighbor superpower that we just haven't encountered yet who, for some reason true or untrue, views us as the bad guys. They're out for revenge or to secure their safety. It could be a misunderstanding, some deliberate plot, or just a cultural bridge that's too wide to cross. One thing I've been playing with in my head on this front is that maybe aether use isn't without consequences - if siphoning energy off from some other dimension was destroying worlds elsewhere in our galaxy somewhere, and had been for a while, that would give some opponent a lot of justification
• I've got some semi-major to major enemies in mind for the Kanagawa and Ravenaca's Watch plots that could maybe have broader impact than I originally planned.

One thing that would be nice is to be able to put faces on villains, like major characters and stuff, as well as things that make the conflict feel personal. Nataria got me invested in the war - it was a big event, felt truly threatening, etc. Glimmergold was another big moment, even though that ended it. If we had some sort of propaganda-type broadcast from the enemy periodically, if plots ran into (and lost against) certain elite ships/fleets/etc, then I think that would help with the engagement.

 

[Arbitrated]

Then, when we finally get to reveal them in 2022 or whenever

Regardless of what the idea is, I think that 2022 (less than a year away!) is far, far too early to consider for a new major conflict. To give a real life comparison of major wars, World War 1 ended in 1918 - World War 2, which was heavily initiated by the devastation of the previous war, began in 1939. That's two decades. To reveal a new villain in 2022 is to say that within half of a year in character of a major conflict ending, another one is about to start up.

I do, however, approve of planning ahead, and developing the enemy or enemies before "releasing" them. Hopefully, this would also reduce the need to make a conflict seem important by artificially increasing the number of starships and soldiers by a few factors of ten, since the GMs would know the goals of the enemy, can play said enemy accordingly (when is a good time to fall back and minimize losses to regroup for a second push? Are they willing to Scorched Earth their enemies, eradicating entire planets of their populations, or do they want to conquer and take hold of the worlds? Enemy aggression and tactics might swing wildly by these factors).

I saw Jabonicus mention an idea in Discord: An enemy that can't be defeated with overwhelming force, numbers, and normal tactics. Think about the Borg, who adapt to enemy weapons - how did Starfleet fight them? They would adapt, blasting enemies with different attacks, making new "weapons" on the fly (I'm still a fan of Picard gunning down some drones inside a holodeck!), and sometimes team up with other factions to make it difficult for the Borg to adapt. The tactics only work for a single conflict, and maybe another after a long time - if you're lucky. You can't train a bunch of Ensigns on how to fight the Borg, you can only give them the tools to learn for themselves.

As a general idea for combat with this future threat: Perhaps they resist energy weapons, but are resistant to physical impacts? This would allow them to quite readily counter Yamatai's energy-weapon-centric weapon design, but ships and factions with more ballistic and missile based weaponry (railguns, autocannons, etc.) can punch through and deal damage in combat.

 

[raz]

What do you want to see in an enemy?

It actually doesn't matter a lot. Meta wars are a backdrop and plots already pull from a wide range of tropes and themes regardless of what our enemies look like. The only desire I really have in a future enemy is that they're not tied in any way to our old enemies or existing setting elements. But that's not because our old enemies were bad; quite the contrary.

While you've said that the Mishhuvurthyar and Kuvexians don't have a lot of detail, that's only really true on the wiki because all of the roleplay that's been done over those three wars (and beyond for the Mishhu) really does give them a clear picture that I think has been enjoyed by many GMs and players, and can be enjoyed into the future. That time between the Second Mishhu War and the Kuvexian War was great because it allowed GMs to revisit the Mishhu on their own terms. The prospect of being able to do the same with the Kuvexians (or the Mishhu again, or really anything a GM wants) is pretty exciting.

Rather than a "peace phase" or even a new big war, I'd just like to see freedom for GMs to run wars or conflicts as they see fit. Any GM can fight off an existential threat to their faction or even the entire sector without it impacting anything else. For example, if the Fifth Fleet wants to go slay an army of skeleton warriors controlled by a Lich Duke who wants to use nanomachines to steal all of the bones on Nataria, thereby killing the billions of Neko stationed there then they should be able to have at it. That's the sort of thing I was doing with my Astral Reverie plot before attentions shifted to the Kuvexian War, and I think Fred's plot is kind of in the same vein — as were many now-departed plots from the time.

But more back to building a future conflict and enemy. I agree that it should be well-crafted. The GM/FM board should definitely be utilized for these discussions because I think that's where a lot of FMs feel most comfortable talking candidly about their factional concerns. In all honesty, perceptions of the Kuvexians and Mishhu being undetailed simply comes from their creation process not getting finished; they got launched before they were done and Wes had to do a lot of the development alone due to various reasons.

tl;dr: What qualities a new enemy possesses seems less important than eventually having a future backdrop to keep the setting interesting. Enemies always fill the same role within plots and writing, so it doesn't particularly matter to me what the next one is as long as they're new.

Spoiler: An aside about Whisper's first pitch, mostly irrelevant

Yamatai civil war? I've heard hints of this sort of thing and I feel like, to some extent, the best enemy for something as established and powerful as Yamatai is itself. I'm not sure what the kicker or the outcome should be, but it's an option.

This is actually a great idea in theory and probably one of the most compelling conflicts that could happen on SARP. But, for reasons even more sensitive than regular PvP, I don't think it'd ever work out. It'd be rad to cleanse some traitors and fight Mindy against Mindy, but it'd require putting such-and-such beloved NPCs or characters on one side or the other (because making up new admiral-level characters out of nowhere is bad in every case, especially when they're supposed to be some kind of bigwig) and one side has to lose. I wouldn't even want to fight the Uesu Fleet for this reason — they're ostensibly better Yamataians than many Yamataians still in Yamatai are.

For some reason, too, I feel like the outcome wouldn't please the FM, Wes. Let's not even talk about the premise itself likely being distasteful.

But maybe someday we could have a non-canon Yamatai internal conflict plot, or even a trans-universal plot based around some ship or task force visiting a dimension that's exactly the same except that those traitors got their way and tore Yamatai apart. RP is RP, and if it's good and uses SARP resources then the canonicity or what universe it's in shouldn't matter.

 

[Charmaylarg Dufrain]

I would like to recommend our next conflict should not be an outright military conflict. But something more shadowy.

Something like group(s) behind the scenes looking to take advantage of economically or logistically thinned governments to achieve goals, sow discontent, and threaten peace in the sector.

Powers that could be precursors or foreshadowing towards larger threats if more intrigue isn't what people find fun and they would rather just the fleet-slamming like it ending up being Big-Uesu behind the scenes re-entering the sector and trying to take over yamatai (and by proximity the sector) by weakening himiko's regime.

And i don't mean like the black syndicate having sway over nep politics. I mean like the sudden emergence of shadowy powers with enough clout and resources to affect YSE/Nep politics (which affect the sector as a result obviously), sway hearts and minds, corrupt officials and even high-ranking officers towards objectives unknown, threaten the peace and new relations between the powers, etc.

It gives a good opportunity towards interesting RP between the factions (especially at the new diplo station) with some tension to mix with the improving relations, has a vague but present enemy GMs can have wiggle room to work with, lets us flesh out this cabal with old setting elements they have suddenly brought to bear, and is something new to try out that isnt as reliant on the wiki and a slow building process as trying to build something new from scratch.

I also think it would be the easiest for all the FMs to work together on.

 

[Andrew]

I'd like to see something creative done for a new enemy, my wishlist of sorts:

• At least not starting until 2022.
• A two-front war - Uesu invading plus another -
• A non-humanoid species
  • An enemy that has Yamatai-equal but not Yamatai-same technology. What I mean is that their technology would need to be unique and truly alien to the Kikyo Sector.
  • An enemy that has a lot of mystery behind it in the beginning (An unseen enemy, we see their ships we don't see the actual aliens behind it until later in the conflict)
  • Is fully fleshed out ahead of time in a secret area of the wiki so it is an enemy with definition versus the Kuvexians which really were not defined.

A lot of great ideas posted above. I might write more when I feel a little better. I'd like to see this topic stay open for a while...