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Yamatai and CQB

Syaoran

Retired Staff
Looking through the power armor weapon load out. I noticed that Yamatai doesn't really have much in the way of CQB gear, at least not anything that really packs a punch. The three things I noticed were the Aether/Scalar SMG, the Sizi, and the older Type 29 Armor Service Pistol. Anything else was either a sidearm at best, and didn't really have much effect against power armors. (The NSP for instance) THe Aether Beam Saber Rifle might work? But there are no dimensions for it but the picture looks like a hand gun with a sword attached.

Either way what I'm saying is, I think it would be good for Yamatai to develop some CQB weapons for use in dense forest worlds, or urban environments. My personal suggestions are;
  • A short barrel shotgun of some kind
  • a compact SMG or Machine pistol, not essentially a bullpup rifle
  • hand grenades of some kind
  • maybe an emergency 'combat knife'
I know some of these weapons are kind of covered by the forearm weapons, but if you want to put a shield on you kidna lose the forearm weapon, and those drain from your suit so if you're in a bind for power for whatever reason or you're trying to minimize your energy signature, you'd want something that has its own power.
 
They also have the plasma saber. Its a point behind the ASBR's blade mode, but I really doubt you'd want to just tank that.
 
Wish it said in the article it could work for Mindy 4, too.
 
I'm assuming thats because of the time of its creation rather than a hardware limit. The modern Mindy 4 can plug in to a variety of standardized weapons and equipment, and Junko is hardly the first Neko to use a Mindy 4 and the sabers together.

I mean, it wouldn't make sense from a technical standpoint, right? Why would you make a weapon that'd only be able to plug in with this one specific power armor when you know you upgrade them often enough to think of future compatibility?
 
All in all, CQB would be cool to have more often, what are you thinking of doing @Syaoran? I like the combat knife idea a lot, though.
 
Well I just feel that for the most part everyone has the same basic fighting style when it comes to PA. I mean of course there are exceptions, and people do have specializations, but if those specializations aren't being used at the time it feels like most everyone fights the same way even if they have different weapons. I feel like this has to deal with generally speaking Yamatai's primary fire arms for PA all fill the same role, pretty much an assault rifle. Then the shoulder weapons, they both fill the same role. So even if you go out with different weapons, if it's the 'standard' equipment list you're effectively fighting the same way.

That's part of the reason why I introduced the Kinzoku Hane, to add a new type of high potency weapon into the mix with a very different role. The hopeful incorporation of CQB weapons will add some variety to the primary weapon category as well.
 
If we look at modern warfare, machine pistols and submachine guns are specialized weapons. An SMG is used when the concern for overpenetration is high; a machine pistol is for security details who need compact, high-volume fire.

The automatic carbine (assault rifle) works so well precisely because of the roles it covers in a military setting, right? Countries don't often deploy shotguns as primary arms for even rear echelon troops. Same with submachine guns anymore; there are relatively few weapons of that class that have been developed in the past 20-30 years. The assault rifle works too well, and when it doesn't, you use a PDW (that might be a carbine anyway). That's why I made the ASPR; it covered all bases pretty well.

There's also the general assumptions that go into Yamataian PA combat.
  1. You're fighting a larger and/or armored target.
  2. You're fighting a highly mobile target.
  3. If 1 and 2 do not describe your target, just wait, because you'll probably fight 1 or 2 soon enough.
  4. PA can perform dizzying maneuvers in even tight spaces. CQB might occur, but it should not have to occur.
  5. Even if it does, the PA and its weapons can fit in pretty small spaces, and you'll still be better off than your 1 or 2 target.
The Mindy 4 is versatile and amazing. That said, it's still a PA that operates on the above assumptions. It's fast, small and agile like nothing else. Why get in close? Shoot! Move! Communicate! The Mindy 4 rolls great with the above assumptions.

Lastly, there's inheritances. The original Mindy was for spacy combat, so its weapons revolved around that environment. With the Harpy/Daisy development, middling terrestrial weapons (the LASR and its SLAG) were deployed to good effect, but other weapons were borrowed from the Mindy suite. That meant Yamatai's ground forces never lacked for stout PA-grade weapons. Because of how small the PA is and the punch it can deliver, getting up close wasn't ever a big concern.

See Nepleslian armors — they count on CQB. Yamatai counts on not being in that situation.

So when I designed the ASP, I worked with all of the above. I wanted a weapon that a Daisy could carry as a "sidearm" like a soldier would carry a pistol. It's meant to be a "defensive" weapon until you get to a LASR or some other rifle. The ASP offers good damage for short range, but you don't attack with it. Same with the original SiZi and Raz's refinement. Only SOFT units were seen as needing something more, which is why we have the SOCK for them.

The Aether SMG was more about justifying art we ended up with than developing a super-useful SMG. (Though it is useful!)

What I'm getting at is that you are seeking something that Yamataian PA aren't designed to use or want. If you are that close to a target, and you cannot stealth or move away from that target enough to use the usual weapons, then something's wrong. However, Yamatai does have some weapons that can perform well in the CQB role.

If you're talking about weapons for unarmored infantry to use against armored troops, then that's another bottle of water.
 
Don't forget that your standard Yamataian power armors come with forearm projectors that are essentially SMGs and double as energy swords.
 
cannot stealth or move away from that target enough to use the usual weapons, then something's wrong
For player satisfaction, it's usually good to give them the opportunity to smash out some close quarters stuff to lighten the whole, "we have battles in space with big guns on our shoulders and ship-to-ship combat, too!" feel.
 
@Doshii Jun while yes -techncially- avoiding CQB is the 'logical' thing do. That kinda takes a back seat to narrative in this case. Sometimes people want to be able to have variances in their combat style so that not everyone is there to do the exact same thing. And sometimes you might actually be forced into CQB, like you're inside a building, or you don't have the fuel for aerial battles, or maybe you just outright lost your or damaged your propulsion. There are situations where CQB could actually be the best logical weapon, but admittedly they're rare, this is mostly about allowing players to have gear that suits the style they want to play.

And yes @raz they do, I did actually acknowledge that in my post, but there are some situations where using your own power supply for your weapon might not be preferred.
 
Don't forget that your standard Yamataian power armors come with forearm projectors that are essentially SMGs and double as energy swords.

The Mindy 4's projectors use the same style as the M2-1H, which fires lethal and stun rounds. Unlike the M2-2D, which can also project an aether blade equivalent to the ASBR's hull cutter. Its why I wanted to swap the projectors, since they are largely the same except with the addition of one really awesome function. At the time, I'd thought it wouldn't be any more contentious than changing out any of my hardpoint equipment except for having installation, hence why I never bothered to contact anyone about it. The same reason I don't bother anyone else on the ship if they'll continue to do the automatic functions of their role. Not to mention that instead apparently I'd have to swap out the entire forearm housing, which was never clearly articulated before.

We do have the hard light weapons options, but those probably can't cut through enemy power armor on short notice. With fighting large enemy robots or Kuvexian power armor, that is a concern. Sure, they will probably work if I can jam them into a joint or the neck, but we don't always have that kind of opportunity.

Actually, why does the Mindy 4 use the 1H projectors anyways? The 2D is in much more common service, with the 1H no longer even being built. Better tool aside, you'd have more of the newer projectors on hand to just bolt onto the newer chassis.
 
I'd like to mention that, personally, I'm happy the Mindy IV's arm equipment is just ranged weaponry.

I've developped something of a dislike of the forearm weapon.

What do they do?
- rapid fire, just as well as the saber-rifle
- fire a stronger beam, just as well as the saber-rifle
- generate a sword-like aether projection, just as well as the saber-rifle

So, why have saber-rifles when the inbuilt forearm weapons are better?

Just having a ranged weapon inbuilt pleased me, because it gave more value to the larger handheld weapon.
 
I walked in to a fight recently with my main squeeze NPC, who knew there would be CQC and had no handhelds on her, just used projections and forearm weaponry wisely.
 
I'd like to mention that, personally, I'm happy the Mindy IV's arm equipment is just ranged weaponry.

I've developped something of a dislike of the forearm weapon.

What do they do?
- rapid fire, just as well as the saber-rifle
- fire a stronger beam, just as well as the saber-rifle
- generate a sword-like aether projection, just as well as the saber-rifle

So, why have saber-rifles when the inbuilt forearm weapons are better?

Just having a ranged weapon inbuilt pleased me, because it gave more value to the larger handheld weapon.
This is all another reason why we should have different types of handheld weapons, so that there are some handheld weapons where that isn't a problem.
 
In favor of the Mindy IV... who decided its hard light projections - if used for combat - wouldn't make the cut? (pun intended)

Putting aside my own preferences, the hard light projections are volumetric objects. Zesuaium itself is a volumetric object, just made permament. Basically, both phenomenon are made of what makes geometric shapes: vertices, edges and surfaces. None of those have any volume, which is why zesuaium swords are so rare. This is why zesuaium is hard to alter, hard to damage and impossible to repair. It's why you rarely see zesuaium hulls of ships pieces appart to reward swords to people: everytime you have to employ an exotic process to 'subdivide' zesuaium's shape and essentially sculpt something pristine inside it while ruining the original shape.

Part of the reason zesuaium is useful for bladed weaponry is that, like any vectorial depiction, once you draw something that's sharply angled, no matter how much you zoom it, that shape is still an absolute. But zesuaium weaponry aren't planes (as in, a 2d shape), they're typically diamonds (as in, a lozenge). The reason why zesuaium penetrates most matter but won't necessarily cut through everything without considerable strength is that you have to muscle the middle of a blade through volume - even if your monomolecular-edge broke the first molecules in your way, you still have the blade's width to force through what you cut.

Now, back to hard light projections turned into weaponry. It could be weak. But it could also be extremely strong, a temporary energy-created 'cheap' zesuaium. Perhaps it's even a perfect 2d object, meaning that it might be able to cut through things even more effortlessly. It could be fantastic to fight against a zesuaium weapon: a mono-molecular edge cuts through matter just fine, but it cuts the same as any normal weapon on a tangible forcefield: not at all.

Do I like this? Not very. Especially considering how hard light seems more an afterthought on the Mindy IV than a central feature. I don't even like hard light tech and kind of wish it'd not be around. But I can't really discount the possibility now that it's actually in and in use.
 
@Fred, I don't know how to say this and for sure sound polite. But I do like the information in that post, and most of it I didn't know, and I'm happy to know it now, cause it gives me fun but less OP ideas for a new piece of gear. But I'm not actually sure what that post was targeted at.
 
You're talking about CQC. Mad Stylus made mention of this:
We do have the hard light weapons options, but those probably can't cut through enemy power armor on short notice. With fighting large enemy robots or Kuvexian power armor, that is a concern. Sure, they will probably work if I can jam them into a joint or the neck, but we don't always have that kind of opportunity.

So, I'm discussing CQC stuff. If I'm out of line, I'll step back. Sorry for the inconvenience.
 
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