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Yamataian Cybernetics

demibear

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Submission URL
https://stararmy.com/wiki/doku.php?id=stararmy:systems:saoy_cybernetics#yamatai_cybernetics_standardized_protocol_ycsp
Submission Faction(s)
  1. Yamatai (except Elysia)
Submission Terms
  1. I agree
After some going back and forth with myself on how to do this, I am finally submitting this formally for others to take a look. Before I or anyone else make any actual parts, I thought it would be more important to define how Nekos are going to get them in the first place. I am drawing Ghost in the Shell and Adam Jensen from Deus Ex as sources of inspiration on how they will look.

There is the question of if cybernetics will be allowed when someone discharges from service, but I left that out for now. I think I have it in the right namespace @Wes
 
I'm a little mixed on Yamatai using cybernetics. I feel like Nep and Freespacers are big on them, NDC to a lesser degree. With the prevalence of bio-tech in Yam-space, body swapping, etc, I'm not sure if it feels right for Yamatai to make cybernetics a more common thing. I'm specifically thinking about 'faction identity' here. I could see Nekos under the other factions using cybernetics (with complications, maybe?), but I'd think the SAoY would have a more elegant solution.

How have we been handling lost limbs, etc, for Nekos in past RP?

The article itself looks well thought out and written.
 
How have we been handling lost limbs, etc, for Nekos in past RP?
A severely damaged Neko can regrow its limbs and repair its body in 36 hours.
I'm a little mixed on Yamatai using cybernetics.
It's technically already approved when the 33A was created.

"the 33A has enhanced support for authorized future cybernetic enhancements (to be developed)"

As a 33A player myself, it's nice to see someone finally interested in developing what's already authorized.
 
I can only speak for myself and my motivation for bringing this to life. It is true they are mentioned with the Type 33A, but Whisper raises an important factor I was trying to balance against. Nepleslia is the cyberpunk faction of SARP and I do not want to contribute running all over it. Perhaps I should add to this article or another article on the differences between the two.

I know the vision for it was to essentially strap on Mindy components to the Neko and I might have added my own bias a bit there with Nepleslians in Yamatai that have biomechanical bodies (transferred, died, etc.) able to express themselves in some limited fashion. My thinking for Yamataian cybernetics is they will be more functional in nature and eliminate the need to make multiple types of Nekos since they can just be customized.

Plus Yamatai is far more controlling on what is and isn't allowed, so I am hoping that will be enough to eliminate anyone trying to go cyberpunk in YSE and instead go in the Ghost in the Shell "Major" direction.
 
I'm not a Yam or Nep FM, so if @Charmaylarg Dufrain or others don't have an issue with it, I've got no issues. :)

For the 33A and stuff like it, I always assumed that it was like what Demi said- attachments, not replacements, since Nekos are so resilient.
 
Thanks for the @ . Its been such a busy day i never would have noticed the thread~

submitted at 12:40AM and Fm approved within literally 1 minute.

Im going to assume that wes read the article before it was submitted as he's usually pretty keen on whats going on-on the wiki and didnt just-auto approve something or give a skim like the pessimistic side of me would want me to believe.


After giving it a few reads myself i do have some concerns in the direction the submission has taken from a Nep POV tho. I would first like to say i don't like using OOC reasoning or logic to get in the way of expanding the setting; And like raz I've always wanted someone to expand the 33As utility beyond simply being taller/stronger 33. But i have some reservations as to my factions' identity being infringed on, possible power creep, etc.

The identity part as to that Cybernetics is one of the biggest part of nep culture. I know demi has no intention of stealing that from nep and has no malicious intent with his article but they are something i would like to keep inherent almost exclusively towards the DIoN side of the setting and see any Yamatain counterparts for the 33A be more external such as the 33As possible future upgrades imply (such as armor, exoskeletons, shields, etc.). Also "Yamtaian cybernetics are vastly more refined and controlled in appearance" is something i would comment on in regards to how nep cybernetics are viewed. Nepleslias' 'netics are the most advanced in the setting. They can be anything from completely normal-looking flesh and blood to gaudy and bulky and its only because the later (stylized and bulky cybernetic aesthetic) is what is considered aesthetic and akin to a form of fashion in nep that most people don't feel a need to hide cybernetics or their utility as compared to a more frugal and beauty oriented yamatai where such things are more fashion taboo in a culture where everyone is born or created beautiful and limbs regrow in super-speed and even scars are uncommon. Nep cybernetics are also advanced to the point where they can do anything short of recreating a cyberbrain like those in neko/minkin, and that's only because of OOC reasons and respecting such faction tech and identities.

The possible power creep aspect as to neko already having an extreme amount of utility in regards to powers, strengths, and in some cases functions that already mimic what cybernetics can do (Their visions settings, gravity manipulation, healing, strength, communication ability, volumetrics, etc.) and would argue that advancing them any further in such directions goes into power creep and mary-sue territory where it discourages PCs working together to solve problems when each one has finally transcended into demi-godhood and has shed the need to work together.

All that being said i have no desire to stonewall Demi's work if i don't have to and would simply ask that my objections be noted if they would prefer not to move the article in a different direction. And that my factions identity be considered in this regard.

Hope i don't sour anyone thanksgiving with all that!
 
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No worries, I have no Thanksgiving in China, haha.

Well until the issue of Neko and other issues brought up are formally addressed, I formally withdraw this. I really don't want a multi-page thread and there are better ways of communicating with people. I will get in contact with @Charmaylarg Dufrain and @Wes to figure out how to balance this for all parties.

Power Armor lacking an AIES checks all the boxes of the intent for the 33A as well. So I will write some fluff in regards to that. I just need to figure out how much everything costs and explain why it would easier for the Rikugun to do that.
 
While you continue to work on this concept, demi, do consider that two already approved articles (Type 33A and Type 42 Minkan Upgrade) state that those models of NH-series bodies can use cybernetics. The question as to whether Yamatai can use cybernetics is already settled; 33As and militarized Minkan can use cybernetics and presumably will as soon as work is finished on them. They simply don't have any compatible equipment yet created.
 
Whether or not Yamatians/neko can have cybernetics isn't really what's in question here, it's how to execute on the concept of "Nekos/Yamatians with cybernetics" in a way that doesn't bring two races that are more or less already flat-out the best in the setting beyond the point of no return and entering into "why play any other race/faction" territory.

One of the ideas I've seen was that Yamatai could be, for one reason or another, much more restrictive in terms of how cybernetics can look, with cybernetics almost always being seamless integrations that you can't tell are cybernetic without taking a close look at them.

An idea I had was that we could to more closely regulate OOC what cybernetics are allowed for Yamataian/Nekos, with things trending more towards the mundane side i.e; "I've got this dataport adapter in my finger" as opposed to "I've got a small laser pistol integrated into my forearm and a shotgun in my lower leg" which is a more Nepleslian thing.

These are mostly ideas intended to preserve each faction's individual flavor and to prevent things from becoming too muddy.
 
^

That is what I was hinting at. The execution just was done poorly.
 
Honestly the reason this was approved so fast is because it's so obvious that this is something it belongs in the setting and meshes so well with existing canon and theme that it was a no-brainer. Does it create some overlap with Nepleslians? Yes, but that's OK. Nepleslia and Yamatai are just different sides of the same coin.

I imagine Yamatai cybernetics to have a tendency to be more integrated and more internal and that the most popular implants will probably by personal powerplants, personal computers, and personal shield generators, forearm guns, etc. They're not the big obvious cybernetics Nepleslians favor but more along the lines of ex-Borg in Star Trek where you can't see most of them and the person is a mix of machine and organic, or like Shepard is mass effect. Also they tend so be something made with the body during the cloning phase instead of something added later as an upgrade or post-injury like Nepleslian ones tend to be.

Also, since it was mentioned, it's not like Yamatai doesn't have tech for fully robot or full conversion bodies as well so if someone wants to go full Battle Angel Alita that's fine too. This is a setting where you can transfer your consciousness into a robotic delivery truck and go around isekai-ing people for fun if you wanted. I'm not gonna put artificial restrictions on cybernetics that make sense to me from the IC and OOC perspective.
 
Most of the cybernetics you listed are the exact sort that people have raised concerns about. Given that a Neko can regrow any lost part of their body in a short amount of time, the only real application for cybernetics is to give them additional powers. I'm not sure if that feels right in terms of balance, faction identity, etc.

It's a weird case because there's not much reason to say this shouldn't happen- Some simple solution (or the 33A's existing design) could be identified to explain why the Neko's healing ability doesn't kick stuff like this out of their body, but won't allow tattoos (etc). It just feels off.

I'll add my name to the list of folks who are hesitant on cybernetics for Nekos. For what it's worth, that's 3 FMs who aren't saying no, but are expressing concern around the idea. I think the article itself is cool, well-reasoned, and coming from a good place.


As an aside - in the event that a Neko finds itself unable to regenerate a limb for some reason and doesn't want to do a body swap, I don't have any particular issue with them getting a Nepleslian cybernetic. This is different than an internal something that adds more power in a non-noticeable way, but might allow for some extra abilities nonetheless. I feel like this is a weird take on the problem, but it preserves some of the faction's identity that I know we all care about and avoids power creep.

I also don't have an issue with things that attach on top of the Neko's body and integrate that way. Those aren't exactly cybernetics as we tend to think of them, but a forearm bracer that draws its power and processing capabilities from the Neko and gives them a gun or blade in return seems reasonable. Maybe enhancements of this type don't clash with the Neko's natural healing abilities?

Not sure if that helps or hurts, but I don't want to criticize something without offering solutions. Thanks all!
 
People are worried about basically what the Iromakuanhe have being added in again as a power creep. For those that won't click it, personal arms can be added at the wrist under the subsection I linked, but the whole page is a real "your mind's the limit" cybernetics page for Iromakuanhe. So it's not a power creep, this conceptt has been in the setting for many years.

I don't even know where to begin to look where it says Nepleslians can get weapons embedded in them, let alone shields or power supplies. What's in the article thus far aren't those things, yet. Most of these are biomechanical and maybe more of them should be @demibear to avoid being like Nepleslia with a lot of mechanical attachments, they are more along the lines of nanomachine creations across the board? If we could make Yamatai's use of cybernetics as individual as the faction they are being made in, I'll be happy.

As an aside and not my main point, cybernetics isn't on the main Nep page, the faction page for Neps, there is no cybernetic on the military equipment page, the only time cybernetics and Nepleslia are closely tied on the wiki is this wiki page and character pages, and the detailed cybernetics page from 2005 isn't even backlinked on any Nep pages except for the Gunhund page I made. Whatever argument there is for Nepleslia being the best in cybernetics, follow it up on the wiki so that people don't have to rely on guesswork and FM forum posts on submission boards to know that.

This article's submission thread will be monitored to be sure everyone follows the code of conduct and submission rules. Warnings and thread bans will be issued by staff as necessary.

Hello! Let's see if this submission meets the requirements for inclusion in Star Army's lore...

[ ✅ ] 1. The destination URL should be a page in the appropriate namespace and titled lower_case_with_underscores
[ ✅ ] 2. The article is in the appropriate format and article template
[ ✅ ] 3. The article follows our wiki-style guidelines, including No forced line breaks, text after each section header, etc.
[ ❌ ] 4. The article is easily read and free of errors in spelling and grammar
[ ❌ ] 5. Links to other wiki articles are present as appropriate and are not broken
[ ✅ ] 6. The article fits into the Star Army universe's space opera theme and technology levels
[ ✅ ] 7. Images in the article are hosted on Star Army's wiki and sourced responsibly (contact Wes privately if there's a concern)
[ ✅ ] 8. The article is original and doesn't contain copy-pasted content from other articles.
[ ✅ ] 9. The article complies with Star Army's rules in terms of damage ratings, speed limits, etc.
[ ✅ ] 10. The Faction Manager(s), if applicable, have posted approval for this article in this thread.

Here are some fixes this article still needs:

1. "It was later added to the military upgrade Minkan receive with the YE 42 Upgrade package." to "It was later added as an optional military upgrade Minkan receive with the YE 42 Upgrade package."

2. Link AIES, Pantheon.

3. "Yamataian biomechanical and mechanical cybernetics largely follow the same classification as Nepleslia for simplicity." This should be above in Nep category if it's truly about Nepleslia, but as I mentioned earlier, this article isn't really Nepleslian. It's a general tech article not backlinked more than once by Nepleslia, you could just say, "Yamataian biomechanical and mechanical cybernetics largely follow the same classification as international standards [linked] for simplicity."

4. "replacement of the arm " within the leg section should probably be leg, no?

5. Can you incorporate Wes' ideas more into this?

6. I'm not comfortable with civilians getting these. Is it just the wording confusing me? Are these military body upgrades only? If not, please discuss why or change it about. I think some of these could be under a civilian header and some under a military use only one.

7. I also know you're trying to appease the spaghetti on the wall, but making it prestige and occupation based over rank based gives Yamatai classist overtones it doesn't have. Everyone is given a monthly stipend and shelter, but only some civvies can jump really high with shin implants? Doesn't add up.

8. This could be way more detailed without being limiting. On top of taking Wes' recommendations, check out that Iromakuanhe article I linked above for just how in depth it can get.

When these fixes are made, please post a reply here so I can re-check the article. Thank you!
 
I only just noticed it a minute or two ago, and the review will probably help a lot when it comes to most of those points, but the submission was actually withdrawn in this post.
No worries, I have no Thanksgiving in China, haha.

Well until the issue of Neko and other issues brought up are formally addressed, I formally withdraw this. I really don't want a multi-page thread and there are better ways of communicating with people. I will get in contact with @Charmaylarg Dufrain and @Wes to figure out how to balance this for all parties.

Power Armor lacking an AIES checks all the boxes of the intent for the 33A as well. So I will write some fluff in regards to that. I just need to figure out how much everything costs and explain why it would easier for the Rikugun to do that.
 
Thanks, Jack. Thanks, Alex.

I wanted to let him know the changes that should be made for approval and he's asked it go on hold while he re-writes it.
 
Okay, I have changed the article and will make what I have written before into its own article I linked to this one. I think I will give that its own approval thread unless you prefer I submit it as a sub-article @Ametheliana. The current version is my attempt to explain why cybernetics were not developed with the 33A came about, why could be pushing for it now, and how it mixes with a post-labor society where an individual has the option to just sit at home and be in the leisure class.

Hopefully, this will make it easier to mesh with future articles on cybernetics as a whole since I know Charmaylarg Dufrain wants stuff written up about Nepleslian cybernetics. Would be nice to have a way for people to see the different implementations of cybernetics in the setting.
 
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