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NMX Forces Update

Why isn't the Reaper unable to "slice a pie"? That's simply a footwork maneuver.

And you really don't want to know how I was taught to clear a room. Grenade first or simply full auto fire into the room. There was a lot less emphasis on "collateral damage" in the past. With the bloodiness and history of corpses in SA history, I strongly suspect most factions will end up using Cold War tactics instead of current ones, especially since death in the SAoY isn't permanent, so their desire to reduce collateral damage is probably massively less.
 
CadetNewb said:
To Fred, Hybrids were brought up since they're well known to have a good track record despite lacking an article. Arieg would like to have them in combat roles, but personally? I'd like them to act as advisors to the NMX at the most and only intervene on a personal basis, rather than a general one.
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The NH-25 hybrids shouldn't be seen as a combat unit. Furthermore, I'm not sure it was clearly understood in which context they've appeared. NH-25 have been seen only in the context of Eve's rebellion against the Yamatai Star Empire in the hopes that the initiatives taken would dissolve Yamatai's imperial government for a democracy. Though Eve was a madwoman once, she'd evolved since then enough to be a proper ruler for Yamatai whom - the rebels believe - would adequately represent the nekovalkyrja species.

NH-25 appeared on Eve's sides, and it was one of her daughters. She soul transfered into an NH-25 body. Black Spiral had access to those bodies, so, so did Eve; and it was allowed for one of her NH-17 daughters to upgrade. Other NH-25s showed up on the wormhole station Amaya's Gate, but those were still part of the Daughters of Eve.

However, Melisson had another NH-25 on her ship, Ume. Melisson wasn't Ume's mistress so much as Ume was a guest from the TNE whom was there to represent it and witness pretty much the event that would be pivotal. Her interceeding against Yukari's group was more or less an issue of "please don't ruin everything out of ignorance".

Because the TNE were siding with Melisson and Eve (though each ended up working at crossed purpose) with the objective of kmaking something better of Yamatai before Melisson's Doctrine of Retribution ended. The next Doctrine - that of Annihilation (though an underling of Reiaz decided to twist that into 'Assimilation' and was humored as long as it 'worked') - was to treat all humanoid life as vermin and work to eliminate it (and - as part of the assimilation idea - use humanoids on the way as tools to facilitate that if need be).

There's no way you'd see a NH-25 side with the NMX. They know what the NMX are about; doing so is not only non-conductive to their goals, but also suicidal. The TNE gains much more here by keeping to themselves and making sure the NMX don't know they exist.

The role you're looking for is either an Interpreter offshoot of an Umbral similar to Mefpralphra's Melisson - note that I don't consider Interpreters popular amongst the Umbral now that the elders involved want to wipe out humanity (do you talk to your food? They usually don't and they are pretty low on empathy). It seems what you're looking for is more along the lines of the Nightmares.
 
It's not so much as a Reaper being unable to slice the pie, but doing so less effectively. Each instance it does, it can't bring as much firepower to bear. The default weapons are not good enough, and any upgrades in their inventory are far too good. Meanwhile, if a GM solves the problem on their own, they either mis-portray the weapons themselves, or have to use resources from other militaries, which provides its own problems. Producing new equipment for the Reapers to potentially use shouldn't hurt anyone - it's just on the list, and is up to the GM to decide if it's appropriate or not.

And yes, I agree with you Fred; I'd rather not have the Hybrids as combat units myself. You'll have to keep in mind Arieg and I are not of the same opinion on some things, and this is one of them. Given the history you've given on the Nh-25's though, you're quite right that they're unlikely to help the NMX. And I'm not exactly the type to do the story-changing mental gymnastics on my own. The thing is, the Nightmares that @Khasidel worked on, though made well, have me apprehensive. Some of their RP that I've read was less than stellar. Though, if the NMX reorganized itself to center around the Mishhuvurthyar themselves, what roles would he see Nightmares taking?
 
Well, that'd center of the usefulness of a humanoid unit that you happen to implicitely trust in the capacity of its functions unlike a thrall.

Diplomacy is one facet. If Interpreters are not going to be used, a face that's releatable to the enemy could be an asset in communicating (it does happen). If you have to send an envoy that can fend for itself, the Nightmare does that too. There's also how Mishhu are typically clumsy conversationalists because their mental sendings often feel overbearing; the Nightmare's speech wouldn't pose that problem. They can interpret.

Infiltration is another. A Mishhu can infiltrate. A Ghost Mishhu can do so even better. But a stealthy neko-like humanoid can still go places the Mishhu are too large to pass through, and can operate hardware they cannot - from shuttlecraft, to cars, to power armor. Given suitable ample clothing, disguising a Nightmare into lower run of society is also possible.

There's also slave management. Not that the usual Mishhu has much problem with that, but the Nightmare does end up being able to 'interpret' better - this can be worth it in regard to maintaining a force of thralls.
 
Sometimes, there are circumstances where the Mishhu really do have to take part in conversation, though in many cases, I see they come off as rather hammy. Having the option of getting a humanlike character to do the talking on their behalf would be easier for some GMs simply because they'd be portraying another 'person'. However, there's issues with using Nightmares for this job as well. Even then though, I don't think it warrants making yet another variant of something. The first big issue with them though, is that their article currently implies that they're all incredibly aggressive and not suited for sitting down and talking with. The second would be that their scales would interfere with deep infiltration and espionage.

Changing it so that their behavior is a lot more amicable but still very much on the side of the NMX would be one change that'd help, while the other would be the ability to retract or re-absorb all scales and Mishhu-like features into themselves. The latter, they might already be able to do, but in the end of the day though, the original creator would have to chime in their own feelings on it.
 
The Nightmare has already been used in the RP, so I don't support trying to retcon them into something different, though it's okay to add to their versions or capabilities. I just don't want to lose what we have already. This is also the case with any other existing NMX thing. I don't want to go back to look at an article about something my ship fought in the past. I feel like if we do a revamp of the NMX, I'd rather differentiate the "third wave" Mishhuvurthyar assets from the Second Mishhuvurthyar War ones which would be retained for historical purposes. If some of the same stuff is used in multiple Mishhu waves, that's fine, we can just update the article's lore parts. Thinking on the Nightmare specifically, you could just upload a different mental data template into their brains at creation and have the article say "in YE 38, the Mishhuvurthyar began using this in X manner."

Really, though, I'd like to see any future NMX have a whole new lineup of ships, and an RTS-style assortment of enemy units with detailed standard tactics.
 
Well, I think the fact that this discussion exists and is active is an indicator that there's interest in a return of the Mishhuvurthyar. I'm not against this either. I think the Mishhuvurthyar could once again make a good "rival" faction that Yamatai can fight on a long-term basis, providing lots of plot fuel.
 
I think it's well established at this point that the Mishhu almost always end up getting on people's nerves when we try to make them the big, sitewide big bad. That's probably the reason most of the discussion has centered around updating and reworking what's already there, instead of starting a whole new group. While I agree we shouldn't start retconning stuff left and right, I think it makes a lot more sense to update and reinforce the already established NMX forces, as well as actually putting the detail into the SMX that seems to have disappeared.
 
Aendri is correct on this; having them come in a big, site wide event typically derails plots. That leads to unhappy GMs and unhappy players, and it's something we're best avoiding. I suggest that we have the Mishhuvurthyar basically conduct raids and probing attacks, basically testing our defenses while snatching up goods and trophies while they're at it. This way, it doesn't affect plots at all, and their involvement with the Mishhu is fully at the GM's discretion.

Regarding changes to the NMX however, detailing what they were prior to any changes being made is something that's key to keeping the site's history, so having a history section or something to that effect will be a must. Previous lore was lost because this wasn't done, and I don't intend to let that happen again. In all honesty however, the ships themselves are perhaps the lowest priority - they're simply not what matters to the players. What they'll be facing on a regular basis does, and that's what I'd like to focus on. As I mentioned in my first post, I think a lineup like this would serve the site best:
  • Parasite Swarms: waves of bugs to be fought off that can threaten PA in numbers, or singular bugs stalking individual characters
  • Infested Hordes: people with parasites in them, rushing forward with the swarm of bugs either armed or unarmed. Can also serve as short-term infiltrators
  • Mishhuvurthyar Brawlers: physically mature but still the youngest, most inexperienced and untrusted individuals who use the chaos of battle to get into melee range through speed and/or stealth - can rip limbs and heads off of PA through brute force
  • Mishhuvurthyar Troopers: veterans who are given combat armor, shield projectors and loads of weapons - fast and tough floating turrets capable of anything the brawlers were and more
  • Mishhuvurthyar Heavy Troopers: select veterans allowed to grow into Crab forms and act as various levels of armored direct fire support depending on size - smallest ones can work indoors with some effort, while largest can give vehicles and frames trouble
  • Mishhuvurthyar Ghosts: elite troopers considered the best that they have to offer - more experienced than Msihhu Troopers and capable of phasing
  • Ripper Officers: those who graduate to officer status may opt to be ripped out of their bodies and placed into these bio-mechanical monstrosities, enabling them to not only lead, but fight ferociously - should also allow tentacle ports/options for added horror (eliminates stupidity and quality problems in RP)
  • Nekovalkyrja, Thralls and POWs: act as slave labor and support as well as means of reproduction according to levels of loyalty - should have many who honestly enjoy serving the Mishhuvurthyar and cannot be persuaded
  • Nightmares: logistics and supply command, military advisors, assistants, infiltrators, combat specialists
One thing to note is that we absolutely need to get rid of the parasite contingency in Nekovalkyrja, since it actively denies GMs another tool to chose to use on their players. It's important that nobody is safe from them, thereby raising the stakes and allowing them to serve as a constant source of fear and paranoia that a GM can choose to have as part of the story. Otherwise, things are too straightforward and cut-and-dry for a terrific story to develop.
 
CadetNewb said:
Aendri is correct on this; having them come in a big, site wide event typically derails plots. That leads to unhappy GMs and unhappy players, and it's something we're best avoiding. I suggest that we have the Mishhuvurthyar basically conduct raids and probing attacks, basically testing our defenses while snatching up goods and trophies while they're at it. This way, it doesn't affect plots at all, and their involvement with the Mishhu is fully at the GM's discretion.
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This isn't news, though. It's precisely the state I adviced Wes they be put in when they withdrew.

The Battle of Yamatai was costly. It was - to them a low-risk high-gain gamblethat suddenly turned into a huge loss of all the forces they'd commited to the fight. Then, you had NMX warship numbers down several thousands, and the Star Army warship numbers up a few thousands by contrast (butting the SAoY back to numbers before the NMX hit them like a interstellar bulldozer). Suddenly, the NMX found itself with a lot of territory, and not enough ships to protect them appropriately, while Yamatai had less worlds, but more wrhip density per stars. Yamatai has become defensively unapproachable, but they had poor logistics to maintain their suddenly inflated fleets... which meant they had to go on the offensive right away before the advantage would turn into a mixed blessing.

Whereas the NMX still had resources and just needed time to recuperate... time the Star Army of Yamatai wasn't leaving them. So, the leading member of the Umbral war council leading the invasion, Reiaz, ordered NMX forces to pick up roots and abandon their holdings in favor of going mobile. The goal of destroying all humanoids in the region hadn't changed, but had become untenable in those conditions. Back in the original invasion, the strength of the NMX was that they were a mobile army that was on the ofensive and - because they did not have holdings, Yamatai couldn't really strike back. It was a return to that marauding force style of warfare.

Meaning, the NMX are pretty much there at the whim of any GM whom wants to use them, but they can't afford going into open warfare for the moment.

CadetNewb said:
As I mentioned in my first post, I think a lineup like this would serve the site best:
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This looks like an MMO monster listing. :p

Many of the Mishhu names are really... ranks. I think the 'titles' kind of detract from how the Mishhu is a creature and has to progress through its organization. The Mishhu are not 'nice' to their peers. They're extremely competitive and intercine fighting isn't unknown to them (nor really does it carry much stigma, except for the military leader whom would want to preserve the troops under him).

Also, I'd stress how Ghost Mishhu aren't just normal Mishhu that grew up. They were born already practically demi-god of thier own species. They're also not Neo Mishhu - or, at least, no Neo Mishhu egg was made to hatch after an Umbral had done something to it.
 
I agree with you on how the Mishhu should be nipping at us Fred. Honestly, war with them doesn't have to be an all-or-nothing kind of thing, and as real life has proven, it's often pretty complicated.

In regards to the Mishhu ideas though, they're more of an OOC label than anything else. The almost game-like listing and roles are not incidental; we honestly need to consider gameplay mechanics in role play. If they're not properly made or if there's missing roles for an example, everything else gets thrown out of balance. The Ripper being made into cannon fodder for an example, stands out as one good example of this. Without anything to take certain roles, GMs have to do something, and it isn't always pretty. I completely agree that the Mishhu are creatures that have to climb its own social/military ladder (contending with glass escalators and ceilings and so forth), but that bit wasn't OOC - if anything, I'll be sure to note that if a guide is made.

And I forgot for a moment about the Ghost Mishhu - lore wise, I didn't mean to get that wrong since I was just writing it up as quick as possible. Even then, the idea of them being a rare, ultra-tough enemy for GMs to use still stands.
 
I went in this gamey direction years ago. The DR system we're using right now is largely thanks to that, along with the early notion of dicerolls in the Miharu plot. Both did not stick. Experience teaches me that "gamey" thing sin a roleplay are often pushed to the point of growing detrimental, but we won't immediately see it because "oh gosh it seemed like such a good idea at the time".

Give me the benefit of the doubt in regard to the possible ill of monster titles. I suggest focusing more on what will actually matter to the roleplayers. Would you classify the nekos the same way? I think not. You'd typically see a youngling, and a mature neko, and the rest is usually defined by ranks. The Mishhu, to an extent, already have ranks. Keeping touch with what the players will usually perceive, the distinction is between a dangerous Mishhu, and a very dangerous mishhu. As in, the normals and what has been cropping up as being called the "Elites". Might as well stick to that for continuity's sake.

I keep seeing the normal Mishhu being underestimated. One time was on Bowhordia (Miharu Mission 3) where Samurai Sumaru was almost offended that 'normal' Mishhu would hold him up, with the thought that he'd killed hundreds of them before easily. Thing is, I don't consider Mishhu to be fodder. Mishhu are Nekovalkyrja hovertanks! A normal Mishhu is going to have weapons if he can get some, no reason he'd not be given some and lose the advantage of range or more lethal melee weapons just because the leadership is stingy for some anomalous reason. Do you see low ranking nekos not getting thier guns? Same difference.

Also, another factor coming to mind is a parallel with Macross. Humans piloted transforming Valkyrie fighters whom allowed them to compete with the Zentraedi. I think it's the same thing with nekos vs. Mishhu. When a neko gets in power armor, she's in a position to rival the Mishhu. How the Mishhu cannot stand up to anti-armor weaponry - like aether - is an unfortunate detail. They can wield them themselves since aether in such close proximity would burn them - railguns seem the next best bet.

As for Elites, well, I don't ascribe much to the idea that Mishhu would wear combat armor - they're already exo-skeletal creatures; doesn't make mush sense to me. The Elite unit I remember involved a Mishhu tucking its tentacles close and going into an armored shell which would then boast weapons, shielding and mechanical tentacles of its own - that's probably much like the "metal razor jellyfish monsters" from the Matrix movies (Sentinels). That's likely close to the unmanned version as showcased in the Miharu plot, the Mishhumachina.

Rippers are fearsome and all, but if I recall correctly... aren't those supposed to be operated by brainslaves? That doesn't detract that the Ripper is a big brute of a machine that has to be taken extremely seriously - it's practically a tank-on-legs type of mecha; or an ultra-large power armor at least. To me, the brain slave-only useage makes sense because if your pilot cavity is small, you have more room for other components. I don't really need officers in a threat I mean to be treated more like the ED-209. Deadly, but not particularily bright unless following directions from a more skilled commander.

And this brings me to talking about another much trivialized unit: the battlepods. For the tiny brainslave operated battlepods, those are probably just like a power armor torso housing the brainslave, with gun turrets, mini-missile racks and thrusters. Fodder. No argument there.

But the other type of battlepod - the officer one- has Mishhu operating them. Meaning, there's a Mishhu cockpit. Do you realize how large a Mishhu cockpit makes this unit? This is why, when battlepods showed up in Mission 5 of the Miharu plot, that I gave them the presence of attack choppers/gunships in comparison to the more normal infantry-feeling Daisy-armored nekos. The officer battlepod ought to be very strong; while it can be destroyed with suitably strong firepower (back then, gauss bazookas took them down), those are larger, faster, better armored and better armored than the Elites in their suits.
 
You won't find me arguing in the defense of the DR system here - we can both agree it's none too good at representing how tough things are in RP. However, that doesn't mean that everything that's related to games, be it tabletop or digital, is bad. By grouping things into 'unit types' similar to how games do, we get a better idea of not only what roles the enemy is capable of performing, but also what roles may be unfulfilled.

My intent is to put together a general guide of how to handle/perceive the Mishhuvurthyar so that their overall quality isn't all over the place as it is now. These 'titles' for such 'unit types' are simply the quickest way to label roles some of them may take in regards to how players would perceive them in combat, and on top of that, are all OOC titles. Ones used to discuss and manage the Mishhu, not something meant to be used IC. These aren't meant to be strict either, and GMs are still free to use Mishhu how they see fit. What it is meant to do, is establish a baseline so that they aren't underestimated by GMs or players and degrade their portrayals, watering down the experience from there.

I feel that whether or not a Mishhu is armed entirely depends on just how quickly they've been breeding and in what numbers they're deployed in. One thing that's certain however, is that they're not cannon fodder, and it's something the both of us can agree on. Establishing just how dangerous they are even when unarmed serves to reinforce that idea - specifically pointing out that they can and will dismember humans in power armor with their bare tentacles only adds to this I feel. If you're worried about the logic behind them going unarmed making them look weak or stupid however, that can be remedied as well.

As these are rough concepts, we can toy around with these ideas for the time being. The "Brawler" concept for an example, can be renamed as "Unarmed" in addition to being defined as usually occurring when their breeding rate exceeds what equipment is available. Adding on to that, we can specifically say they don't act as fodder, and are just that dangerous considering they'll be clever about getting into close quarters, are that physically capable/fast or both. Alternatively, "Troopers" can be further divided up into different categories; the plain Troopers can be those with body armor and rifles, while "Shock Troopers" can be issued hard suits with energy shields and mounted weapons, including mini-missiles. Making both tougher, they can even use handheld shields too.

The idea of Mishhuvurthyar using body armor or sealed suits isn't a new one; even in the Miharu itself, they were present and a force to be reckoned with. It also makes perfect sense, as their chitin stops small arms but not PA grade weapons. By putting on a power armor, a Neko who was at a firm disadvantage tips the scales in her favor, while a Mishhu can either balance them or turn the tables by putting on armor of its own. If both wear armor made to the same quality, it's the Mishhu that has the advantage, since even when both were unarmed, it already had things completely in its favor. And that's exactly how it went with Humans and the Zentradi as well. If the Zentradi used sub-par gear, they were either equal to, or at a slight disadvantage vs the Valkyries, but once they put on a proper suit, the majority of humans have a tough time in a one on one fight.

Unless you're Nimura or Max. But that's going off on a tangent.

As for the Rippers, just because they've only been Brain-Slaves for this long, doesn't necessarily mean that they should remain that way. As pointed out before, its track record has been less than stellar, and it's been known for being very dull. It is comparable to ED-209, and that is specifically known to be a joke when handled properly - that's a very drastic difference/change in capability, and one that I didn't think was acceptable. To recover its reputation and firmly make it considered a threat both OOC and IC, my initial suggestion was to completely do away with Brain-Slaves and have a Mishhu go through the same treatment as Murphy did, becoming a Robo-Mishhu complete with some reproductive organs and tentacles. However, there's still plenty of other options as well. We could have both ways for an example.

As for Battlepods, I hadn't mentioned them because I decided to omit vehicles for the time being. Still, I agree with your point of view on them. The typical Battlepod would be a TIE Fighter, while a Mishhu Piloted one would be best compared to the TIE Advanced. Aluminum Falcon not (always) included.

Going back to the original topic though, does the idea of writing up a guide that puts the Mishhu into different categories or units sound good after what I said? It makes managing and imagining them easier for both player and GM while keeping them a high quality threat.
 
On the other hand, the numerical values give a sense of scale on how tough the created unit is supposed to be. "Elite" is an empty title that does not convey much information about equipment. It could be that they got the best equipment, or the worst equipment but the best training. Or it could even be an automatically conferred title due to role, which says squat about equipment (deep recon units are like that, titled "elite" due to their role, but they are also home to some spectacular balls ups).

Some hard values do give a sense of how they should be compared, i.e are they infantrymen, even heavy ones? Or tank analogs?
 
Brain-slaves aren't dumb. After all, they're mostly brains! Think of them as an skilled AI that is completely focused on combat and other common military tasks. So they're very good at what they do, and not very good at everything else, just because they've never learned it. For example, a brain-slave Ripper pilot wouldn't know how to cook, but it could if you taught it. Also, it should be noted that the Mishhuvurthyar have the capability to recycle humanoids' brains into brain-slaves, which has been shown in the RP in places like processing centers where they took captives' brain for that purpose and sent the bodies into the sausage grinders.

In NMX terms, "Elite" is just their term for an NCO. See: NMX Ranks
 
The thing with the DR system Nightowl, is that it doesn't scale well as objects get larger. A ship that's 1 kilometer may only have 10 more points over one that's 0.8 kilometers long for an example, and is a problem that extends to things such as tanks, frames and other vehicles. Not only that, but it's rather arbitrary as well, but that's off topic. First and foremost, I am referring to the word "Elite" as the state of being, not the rank. Sadly, having a rank being named "Elite" doesn't mean the individual is such in any sense. I'm sorry if there's any confusion.

Though Brain Slaves are supposed to be good at their jobs, they're typically not, as seen in most RP. Otherwise, I wouldn't be wanting to make changes to it. I had no clue that they'd use human brains for it though, and that may even explain why they tend to be rather lackluster. For all we know, that may be the only form of resistance the once-human brain can put up. I honestly don't even know why the Mishhuvurthyar would bother harvesting our brains for their Rippers though; it's a security risk. Putting the brains of a defeated and presumably brainwashed/reprogrammed enemy doesn't strike me as the smart thing to do when whipping up one's own batch of brains is easy.

Going back to the point though, I feel something needs to be done to get the Ripper to be perceived as something more than as dangerous but dumb, and doing away with the Brain Slave is looking like a good option. Even having Mishhuvurthyar directly ST into them may prove viable.
 
"So much trouble just for a brainslave."

This is the phrase Melisson used when the Black Knights were making their escape from having destroyed Mefpralphra. A Ripper stood in their way, and just being around a corner was what saved the Black Knights from having half of them killed before being able to take the Ripper down.

The brainslave in the Ripper wasn't really intuitive, or ingenious. It wasn't going to hatch a cunning strategem to get on top of the players and defeat them, like previous opponents they'd face could be. But as a soldier meant to go toe-to-toe with something in a straightforward situation, it signified a lethal menace.

Cadetnewb, you seem to focus too much on the brainslave's limitation. I disagree with you. Wes filled you in as well on that. my advice is focus on seeing the glass half-full rather than half-empty and figure out reasons why the brainslave is good enough rather than not. The Ripper has always been brainslave operated. You shouldn't change that.

As for the labels... I already gave you my input and the benefit of my experience. If you're going to just go on ahead with your preference, that's your own thing.

As for the DR system, I already have a draft up that I offered the people keenly interested in making a change to review and help make more readable/user-friendly... and suddenly no one wanted to contribute once it became time to do something. Had this effort been done, this situation would've already changed.
 
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