Mindy 2 Article Update

[CadetNewb]

Submission Type: Power Armor Article Update
Submission URL: Mindy 2 Article Update

Faction: Yamatai
FM Approved: Yes
Faction requires art: Yes

For Reviewers:
Contains Unapproved Sub-Articles: Yes, Nodal Support Drone Update
Contains New art: No
Previously Submitted: No

Notes:

Though FM approval to perform touch-ups to the article has been given, I recommend additional FM review to ensure article quality.

These 'touchups' are currently housed in a separate area rather than their actual article spaces - upon approval, they will be used to overwrite the appropriate area. Currently, the proposed Mindy 2 article updates expand on pre-existing areas of the current article, and preserve as much of the original text as possible where applicable. The sizing chart included is Nashoba's credit as well, and was inserted to better define the armor. At the same time, clutter has been relocated out of the statistical information and into the article paragraphs to streamline the article overall.

As for the Nodal Support Drone article, its Damage Rating has been brought into the conventional DR system, and its article expanded on where applicable. The statistical data has been streamlined, and excessive information was moved into the article paragraphs above. As with the proposed Mindy 2 touchups, it too will be used to overwrite the current article if approved, and will not remain in its current namespace.

 

[Fred]

I had been keeping my eye on it, and I think most of the changes are pretty sound. I think they ought to have had been directed mostly at the 3A to encourage it being a successor model... but the 2A is so widespread that I have a hard time seeing it get phased out in the near future... so I guess that works out okay.

So, I'd recommend this for approval.

As I'm the one whom created and submitted the Mindy II, I'd have had appreciated the courtesy of being asked "hey Fred, doing touch ups on your Mindy II article" - but meh, I guess that's just my ego speaking.

Also, as addendum... I have no clue what the upper back compartment is about. That was a sneak edit/change by someone else since it was submitted (it's definitely not in my original documents). Stowage space makes sense, but that's what the Butt pack was for. If the upper back is used to carry around extra stuff, where does the computer and life support system go? It's where they're supposed to be!

 

[CadetNewb]

In all honestly, I hadn't learned that the Mindy 2 was your creation until two days ago - until then, I had worked under the assumption that it was Wes' creation, with Doshii having done the Daisy. It's kinda hard to tell without asking who made what in regards to earlier articles when the oldest revisions and logs are gone. Nonetheless, I'm quite glad you've taken notice.

I believe that the key change to the Mindy 2 here is the inclusion of all-around energy shields, the rational being that the CFS present would also provide those. The forearm projectors are still present however, but they serve to refocus the basic shielding into a more concentrated round-shaped barrier. This is, from what I can tell, a departure from your original vision of the Mindy, so your feedback on it in particular would be welcome.

Since the upper back storage that the "Additional Optional Equipment" area makes mention of did not originally exist as well, I'll go ahead and get rid of it if there's no complaint against this.

 

[Fred]

I don't mind the change to the Mindy II's shielding. In a way I suppose it makes sense, though it does remove an advantage the Daisy had over it.

For the Mindy to have an all-around barrier like the Daisy did, it needed a backpack module. It meant abandoning teleportation, or some other feature.

The Daisy's barrier is convenient, but the Mindy's forearm shields - even though much more skill-based in use - were more potent and practically renewable. It made the Mindy II's operator able to soak up a lot more concentrated damage depending on how much was devoted to defense.

It's namely one of the reasons why in the Miharu plot Mara was able to get out into a swarming horde and inch her way through to another location. People call the Mindy II a Glass Cannon in MMO parlance, but in the same way, it could also be a superb 'evasion tank'.

...

All around shielding the way you imply kind of breaks the design, but in a fashion where it's too convenient and borderline overpowered. That's, I figure, the issue I'd have with this.

 

[CadetNewb]

Well, the way I've written it up is that the Mindy's shields are rated at 6, with a Threshold of 3 - in terms of all around shield protection, the Mindy is still inferior to the Daisy when it comes right off of the factory floor. The forearms do serve to concentrate the shields and increase the threshold against powerful, penetrating attacks though - only way for it to gain very powerful shields all around is to mount the Barrier Module.

Personally however? I honestly prefer your version as it carries more character and weight through the form of adversity.

That the Mindy has no shields save for the forearm projectors - we could say that this is due to the CFS design being an early make? I could also mess around with the shield values some more too, maybe make the all around shielding rated at 4, but worth 6 when used with the forearms.

On a side note, you also mentioned the Mindy 3 - that's next on my to-do list, so don't worry about it being neglected.

 

[Fred]

It's far easier than that. The component the CFS needs to erect a protective barrier is in the Barrier backpack module. If you're installing a teleporter, the Mindy II's components don't have the room for whole barrier system.

I don't think power armor weight is something we truly pay much attention to, but in my head, the Mindy is lighter than the Daisy, and rather figure hugging (it doesn't expand for the wearer like M2-3A and the M6). It being less well armored was to cut costs, but it also was to facilitate its compatibility with a teleportation device - especially considering all the extra weight the additional modules can stack over that.

That didn't mean that some attempt to protect it wasn't in order... but the spot that channeled the most power in the suit besides the backpack was the forearms (for the aether weapons) so it became the natural choice to place shielding there. But the arms are hardly central locations, so it's hard to generate a conformal barrier like the Daisy has. So, instead, the field was centered on the arm itself, rather than the entire body. It was also concentrated to be able to take much more punishment than the usual barrier could soak up.

This said, the Mindy II's forearm barriers are an aberration regarding our DR system. They are supposed to be able stop pretty much anything that's not a armor-grade damage while they are active (somewhat like the Himiko-class' shields), with their running time equal to 'life time' - capacitor power. If the Mindy II isn't depleting its reserves attacking, then it can possibly put up with a lot of punishment while under fire.

The reason you said you liked it is... pretty much the reason I did it this way. It empowered player action. Though, by contrast a more passive shield (the barrier module) is a safer option because not every GM gives as much credence to the 'skill tanking' approach.

 

[CadetNewb]

Well, knowing some of that background, I think there's something we can do.

We can have the CFS be a more cut down unit, so it doesn't provide all of the combined services normally expected from that technology - just need to cite that it was cut down to increase teleporter harmonics, efficiency and so forth over other armors. Meanwhile, for the wrist shields, I think we can try something a bit different that's more inline with the original vision.

By default, a single forearm shield generator active will have 6 SP and Threshold 3, while having both out but not overlapped, both will have just 3 SP each. Overlapped however, the efficiency of the two combined fields increase, instantly doubling its protective rating to 12 SP with a Threshold of 5. Only downside is that at that point, the Mindy is just a turtle with no offensive ability out of the forearms. It requires skill, with lots of high risk for high reward. As for the actual Barrier Module which may be Dorsally attached - it won't benefit from the forearm projectors and only receive a Threshold increase if used with them, even when overlapped.

If this sounds good, I'll go ahead and make these changes.

 

[Fred]

I don't see the point of making modification in mention to the CFS. It's power armor sized - of course it won't have all the features a shuttle/starship's unit would have. Implying limitations sort of sounds as a statement that the unit is somehow second-rate. It's not.

* * *

Also, you propose to numerize the forearm shields. That's falling a little flat with me, mostly because I didn't consider that broken and don't see the point of doing so.

See below:

Damage Capacity

• Body: 6 SP (Mecha scale)
• Shields: None, but can be equipped with a Ke-M2-P2904 Barrier Shield Module for 10 SP shields.

Forearm Shield Projectors (2)

Built into the enlarged forearms of the Mindy, the projectors face the outer side and produce a compact but very powerful protective field (in a biconvex dome-shape). Used in a manner similar to an arm block, the forearm shield can deflect heavy focused attacks (making them relatively effective against most anti-armor weaponry). An arm block with both limbs can cope with slightly more powerful attacks. The forearm shield in itself does not degrade when breached, though damage to the Mindy can compromise its performance (like losing a limb). The forearm shields may not function at the same time the forearm weapons are active and charging.

That's not clear enough? If I try to be open about it, your mention of threshold and combining it kind of works (despite a armor-grade shield supposedly not being able to cope with an anti-starship attack) though it shouldn't have any SP in the first place. Additionally, the barrier module probably doesn't overlap with the forearm shields... but if it does get depleted nothing stops the Mindy soldier from then using the forearm shields to block subsequent attacks.

 

[CadetNewb]

You're right on that - I don't want the Mindy to sound second rate, that's for certain, so I won't have the CFS be altered.

As for the forearm shields, I'm adding in the numerical values because there were none to begin with. The way the DR area of the article was set up, I went for quite a while not even realizing that the Mindy 2 had some form of shielding. I had believed it solely relied on being retrofitted with a shield module to have such protection, as the DR area specifically stated it had no shields save for the optional module. As a result, the forearm projectors remained lost in the article's text to me. I more or less want to spare anyone else that confusion, and also give readers a rough idea of how good the forearm energy shields are as well by putting in some Damage Rating.

It's flawed, I don't even like it, but it's what we got to work with and give new readers a rough idea of how things are in comparison to each other. Right now, as I read the original text of the forearm projectors, I understand how the thing behaves, but, it gives me no clue as to just how tough it is. That is, how much punishment it can take before collapsing and so forth - we know it is armor scale already, but have no reference in regards to how well it would work in comparison to others around it.

I'm guessing the forearm shields were intended to be incredibly powerful, but limited in scope/area, so the 6 Armor Scale SP won't do? What would you suggest? I also made mention of the overlapping enhancing the protection due to the original article saying "An arm block with both limbs can cope with slightly more powerful attacks" and went off of that. As for the Barrier Module, I very much do not want the two acting as separate shield systems for balance reasons.

Contrary to its popularity as a glass cannon, it'd start acting like a tank if the barrier went down, and a player could just pop up a fresh forearm energy shield. When the Barrier Module is used, I'd prefer it if both the Forearm Projectors and the module both feed off the same capacitor so to say. The reason I've proposed only 6 SP for the forearm shields is that I intended them to upgrade to 10 SP as soon as the module was installed.

These are more or less my current thoughts - the rest of the Mindy seems to be fine, but these bits are the hard ones.

 

[Fred]

As for the forearm shields, I'm adding in the numerical values because there were none to begin with. [...]

Mm. I think the point I wanted to convey was that the Mindy II's forearm shields were to be treated more in the same way the Daisy's zesuaium forearm shield was. The Daisy's shield is more a supplemental armor cover.

The zesuaium shield is something you can block blows with, but when faced with aether/anti-matter/plasma attacks it will still degrade into ineffectualness. By contrast, the Mindy II's purely energy-based forearm shield could amount to equivalent protection in a fashion that was renewable as long as the power supply lasted.

I'm guessing the forearm shields were intended to be incredibly powerful, but limited in scope/area, so the 6 Armor Scale SP won't do? What would you suggest? I also made mention of the overlapping enhancing the protection due to the original article saying "An arm block with both limbs can cope with slightly more powerful attacks" and went off of that.

Simply apply threshold without the "hit point" value. You don't even need to factor in overlapping, and simply fix it at 5. We're talking about a "player action yields reward" situation, so, it's okay for it to be powerful. After all, in the meantime you're not using one of the suit's deadliest weapon in the meantime.

One thing to remember is that the field generated by the forearm generator is partial cover. The shallow dome doesn't cover the entire body. Take into account automatic fire being sprayed around, scattershots, area saturation attacks, nearby explosions and you can't really block all of that.

With one shield, you have to move it around/point it to intercept attacks. With both, you're literally creating a 90% cover what the shields face. That is the real advantage of combining both forearm generators together.

As for the Barrier Module, I very much do not want the two acting as separate shield systems for balance reasons.

Contrary to its popularity as a glass cannon, it'd start acting like a tank if the barrier went down, and a player could just pop up a fresh forearm energy shield. When the Barrier Module is used, I'd prefer it if both the Forearm Projectors and the module both feed off the same capacitor so to say. The reason I've proposed only 6 SP for the forearm shields is that I intended them to upgrade to 10 SP as soon as the module was installed.

The advantage of the barrier module is that it adds a conformal barrier to the power armor: protection you do not have to act to have, which does not gobble forearm capacitor power to function.

If that barrier runs out, but you still have power in your capacitors, there's no reason why you can't use that capacitor power to generate your forearm shields. The Daisy sure can use its own zesuaium shield without a problem on top of its barrier. If the Mindy had zesuaium shields on each arm, it could do likewise. Same for the forearm shields.

Besides... that Mindy-is-a-glass-cannon thing? That's a broad generalization that turned ot being popular, but which is essentially inaccurate.

The mass-produced Mindy has durandium armor for both logistics and cost reasons. But it's everybit as capable as the Daisy to mount either Yama-dura or yamataiaum/zesuaium armor. That wasn't new to Fiver's MCAS.

Usually, it's not done. Usually, the Mindy II does fine with a light armor cover because its operator can keep it out of harm's way. It's also more or a draw on resources to keep the yamataium armor plates around and available in your ship's cargo. And mounting those does require a teleportable Mindy to use the higher-performance teleportation module.

But no. It's hardly out of its reach. It's just not usually done.

 

[Wes]

There's no reason why the Mindy shouldn't have 10 SP in actual shields without the barrier, though, because it's in that size class and it already has full body CFS projectors (for propulsion) and the article actually says the CFS provides defensive shielding. What if the barrier shield was used in flight but on the ground the forearm shields were better (maybe the CFS shield bumps into the ground and causes issues). So the ground combat is the same as Fred likes and the air/space combat is more like I envisioned it. I think that would be a good compromise.

 

[Fred]

[...] and the article actually says the CFS provides defensive shielding.

You mean someone came in and gave it a generic description? Because that wasn't in my original document/what I submitted.

So the ground combat is the same as Fred likes and the air/space combat is more like I envisioned it. I think that would be a good compromise.

"No reason"? "As you envisioned it"? Wes, I originally made the Mindy II the way it is because you asked for it to be that way. The Mindy 1F didn't have the kind of barrier shielding that became standardized in the Daisy. It had armor - Zesuaium armor. CFS then didn't project the Mindy for squat. The barrier module was tech you made available in Sakura Mission 5 - when we made that raid on the PNUgen complex. We had to choose between it OR the teleport module.

With the Mindy II created, that suit retained the ability to equip similar modules - and that included the barrier module for its forcefield needs. I stayed consistent with that. Without it, it had its forearm shields which were the new kinds on the block then.

Then came the Daisy and the kind of shielding you're attributing as 'normal'. Remember guys - the Mindy II is six years old. It's been relatively successful, but the things we take for granted today weren't then. Nor was the Mindy II actually pulled back to the design board for an actual B variant. Wes just eventually popped out the barely improved Mark III and left it in limited useage (arguably, since the major change there was the extendable framework, it ought to have been a 2B variant instead - there just was too little change to motivate it being a Mark III).

You know, you guys could be doing all these changes on the Mindy III, and actually make a more aggressive push forward to actually field it by making it a better/more attractive article. It'd surely would help make a better case for it, because right now the Mindy III doesn't have enough going for it to motivate it going in full production; it's not really an improvement for the majority of the Star Army -which is neko soldiers and won't really see the difference between a heavily-armored Mindy II and the Mindy III.

 

[Wes]

Sorry for the confusion, but when I said the way I envisioned it, I mean the way I've been using it in the RP. Also, please note that the Mindy 1 did have a barrier shield (I looked up the old Mindy 1F stats) and that the Mindy 3 project was something someone else was working on IIRC, not my project. But anyone who's willing to help can help with it.

 

[Fred]

Also, please note that the Mindy 1 did have a barrier shield (I looked up the old Mindy 1F stats)

If the Mindy 1F had shielding, it either came with the barrier module, or was added sometime later for some bogus reason. You know, kind of the same deal as the ninja changes to the NH-29 which had it regress from being "its own lifeform" and back to "military hardware".

*sigh* You know, having a good memory is really a curse for me here.

To tell the truth, I'm kind of irked and ticked off at this point. Cadetnewb is trying to be helpful and clarify things, but by the same go he's also exuding this "I'm entitled to make whatever change I think makes sense" that rubs me the wrong way. I see his effort, but I don't feel compelled to make it easy for them to pass because I don't see much of a need for them. On top of that, Wes is adding is own take on things, but he's basing his 'certainties' on stuff he's remembering wrong!

The Mindy II is six years old. I'm fairly happy with that accomplishment. To be frank if you feel it's behind the times, I'd rather you go and make something new rather than point out whatever is being inaccurate because of 'balance', the 'way you use it' and so-and-so. The Mindy II was made the way it was for compelling reasons at the time andand may no longer be up-to-date with current preferences. That's life.

Even I know that. After all, I'm making the M15 Kishi.

If the idea is to make the Mindy more 'up to date', then your choice is either a 2B variant or a Mark III. So far, it kind of feels silly to transition to the Mark III without ever getting Mark II variants (the original Mindy went from 1A to 1i) especially with the Mark III so far not showing appreciable differences with the Mark II save 'user size'. The Mark III would be a different suit, though, which would put me out of your hair.

Then again, I'm not sure what point a Mindy III would make when I'm already making the Kishi... though that depends on how much faith you'd have in me as a designer of Yamataian power armors. *shrugs*

 

[CadetNewb]

Well, I'm sorry if I came off as such to you Fred - it wasn't my intent.

I'm more or less trying to understand, wrap my head around and also quantify the Mindy 2's systems in terms that will hopefully make sure nobody else ends up confused. Because, right now, I'm a little confused on how this particular feature of the Mindy 2 works. It's why I've been putting forth several different versions of "how I see it", because I'm trying to have it line up with "how you see it".

Right now, I'm working on the Mindy 2 first, before starting work on the Mindy 3 precisely because of that. I want to get it right and proper here first, before I move on to that. Which, after this, will hopefully be a breeze.

 

[Fred]

It might help if you put yourself in the mindset that the DR system didn't exist at all when the Mindy II was designed.

What it did? It could block the full force of an aether saber... for fifteen seconds. Then it'd be depleted until the power supply gradually refilled the capacitor - which was shared by the aether weapon on the same arm.

You're trying to give it threshold/SP values, but to me it's far more akin to the zesuaium shield the Daisy uses - it's just not going to melt under an aether sword, and power permitting you'll still have access to a shield later (without the extra weight or bulk of one). Does the Daisy's shield conflict with its barrier? Nope. It block stuff, and what gets past hits the barrier. Hence why I've been referring to it more as cover than an actual damage mitigation process.

 

[CadetNewb]

Now I get it.

For all intents and purposes, the Mindy II's forearm shields defy the DR system - it provides complete protection within its limited scope, and is only active for a short period of time. I hope I got that right. Talking to some others, it was suggested I try writing up a small guide to its use instead. I can give a shot at defining this unique feature through a User Guide at the base of the article in an OOC section, and only give it a Threshold 5 but omit SP ratings.

Aside from that, how does it interact with the Barrier Module, if in any way? Until this point, I was thinking of it as an either-or between the forearm shields and the Barrier Module, but quite frankly don't know anymore.

 

[Fred]

You ask the question, but I kind of have to be boring and answer the same thing:

Just like a Daisy's zesuaium shield. What happens if the Daisy blocks with its shield? The attack is stopped, and the Daisy's barrier (if present) takes no damage. If we're talking about a bigger attack like a flamethrower being hoses all around, some might seep past the shield and damage the barrier/armor. However, if you're using both armshields, then you probably stop the attack cold.

Of course, turtling like that has its disadvantages. If a Mindy II is under fire by, say, a duo of NMX Rippers... it could stand its ground and hold them off for fifteen seconds. But once shield power runs out, the soldier in question has no power to retaliate with unless he has some secondary weapon at his disposal.

Also - and this is just me speculating about something new - I doubt the forcefields so formed are only one way. Having one Mindy II stop enemy fire with both armshields in the meantime that his team-mates retaliating through the protection would be kind of overpowered.

...

If you want to aim for clarity, I'd suggest making an entry for it in a sub-article of the forearm aether weapon entry - it's after all very tightly linked to it. So that people don't miss it, you could link to it where a power armor's shield SP/threshold is usually listed.

 

[CadetNewb]

I'll take boring and correct over fantastic and wrong any day.

I'm starting work on implementing this information right now in the revision article, but need to know; how long will the charge cycle be if the forearm capacitors are depleted? 10 seconds/one turn in roleplay I'm guessing? And, far, far, far more important than anything else we've discussed as of yet;

What color is it? And what does the forearm energy shield look like?

 

[Fred]

Reading the Mindy II's forearm weapon text, I'm seeing that while there's a 15 second reserve, as long as the Mark 2 doesn't mount too much energy intensive weaponry that it ought to be able to fire indefinitely.

That means that the (base) recharge is at least equal to the power draw of the weapon. If that's the case, then the shield itself consumes twice as much power as the weapon on the same limb (1000 aether pulse equivalent a second). The capacitor itself then contains a potential of 7500 aether pulses.

In that case, if the power feed to each arm's capacitor is on a 1:1 second ratio as long as the aether weapon is not used. Or as long as the teleport module is not being charged at the same time (teleport modules recharge only as long as aether weapons aren't used, meaning they draw from that same font too).

On an energy intensive Mindy II configuration, the power supply could be even more contingented, slowing down that recharge time even further (or forcing the user to pick and choose what he wants to prioritize).

* * *

Color? I'm kind of colorblind. Never put much thought into that one.

I know Yamataian starship shields tend to crackle blue when put under stress, but otherwise, they tend to be invisible. Perhaps, as powerful as the Mindy II's forearm shields are, that they would warp the air/light enough to look like an obvious transparent pane to the naked eye?