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Plumeria Class Refit input/discussion (Image warning)

True, though my version of the redirection system has its limits. It can actually deplete the barrier like normal damage if the redirected shot isn't below the barrier's threshold. Fortunately, the turrets across the Plumeria are below the threshold, and can be used without concern of depletion.

And yes, those winglets are more sturdy looking. Have to wonder if they'll mess with my thrust-vectoring ideas though or get torn off...maybe I should remove them from mine. Don't know.
 
This is fantastic, a ship module, a set easy to use size, something characters can use, something that can be put just about anywhere, etc etc....

This also may be a great opportunity to work on the wall of text problem. Things like the aether reactor and the nanomachines colonies could be broken out into their own articles. The submission would be a lot easier to read I think if it was a general description of the room and how it works, with links to the more in detail parts.
 
I don't really go into detail about the Aether Generator aside from its size, that it's optional, and how it impacts the use of the system -- things I'd have to discuss in this article anyway. I'm not really 100% sure how the nanomachines would work beyond what I put here as well...does that really warrant its own page?

None of the individual parts' sections seem long enough to warrant their own articles when not considering the sections discussing how the components interact with each other, which would still need to be in this article. If I stretched them out too much with filler, then the subcomponents of those modules might need THEIR own articles, etc...having trouble determining the balance there.

I appreciate that you like the concept though. I tried to make it more useful for interaction than the vague concept of a Fabrication Area we currently have.
 
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I would think the easiest way to break it up would be to break out the nanomachines, the control panels, and the aether generator.

The nanomachines certainly are beefy enough to be their own page. The Aether Generator is also enough to be a stub article as is a folding control terminal. You could then remix these later, for example removing the aether generator and control terminal, then using just the shipboard equipment for that in a ship article.
 
I've been trying to keep tabs on the discussion over Discord. That topic going on everywhere doesn't make it easy to track.

I have some reservations regarding the Plumeria's railguns being turned into torpedo launchers. I hold outright opposition in the same being done to the Chiaki. It's one thing to do a substancial refit, another to transform both said crafts into vehicles with entirely different performance profiles.

I'm also finding the sum of the modifications becoming alarming. The ship is being uprated on each iteration without any significant caveats, just stuff being piled on, to the point when I find it's toeing on territory belonging to heavy gunships/light cruisers like the Irim and the Urufu. It's not because you can do it on a floorplan and a 3d model that it should be done not to mention the Plumeria was already a powerful vessel and that its heightened specs here can make it comparable to the Fuji-class... whom is quite larger.

The effort put into this is undeniable, but it's my fear that if this keeps going, it won't be approvable in the NTSE.
 
Hnn...the ability to launch missiles was always something I wanted, (missiles are just slapped onto the belly of the Plumeria as if it were a starfighter, so the design is clearly wanting there) and something recommended to me, but I was initially worried about the issue you mention if the missiles and gun were separate platforms. I've talked to a number of people though, who wanted them split, and there turned out to be no other justification for a different missile line than the chambering for that gun. If it's preferred, I could remove the gun from the tail of the Plumeria and let the dorsal and ventral missile tubes protect it along with the standard turrets to try and maintain a balance.

The reason I want missiles for the Chiaki is because of a specific reason that does change its function. The Chiaki and Hayai are considered cheap because they split apart their features between two different ships, one of which has parts commonality with the Plumeria. However, if I can increase parts commonality between the Chiaki/Plumeria further to offset the cost of the better armaments to allow the Chiaki do the Hayai's role (high speed missile boat), then the Chiaki can be produced more heavily and serve both roles in wartime. In the end, that seems like it'd be the best option. The Plumeria will probably keep serving for a good, long while even with the Fuji in place anyway. The Chiaki already has the space for missiles, just no launchers, and the engines could easily be adjusted to give it the needed speed and thrust vectoring.

I even envision a possible Chiaki variant with a Sakura-type main gun to act as a true "Light Gunship" without the diplomatic features or frills should war come, and smaller ships with firepower need cranked out. We've strayed too far from the original Sakura concept, and if the Fuji were to become the only option for such, it might find itself outmaneuvered in combat by smaller craft.

I see no real issue with the Plumeria being comparable to the Fuji class, personally. The power of the Fuji-class really didn't scale up with its volume aside from its main gun's Tier, in fact it has has one fewer gun overall. The increase in size may also have hindered things like acceleration or turn time, deviating from the fast gunship concept as stated above. The increase in volume seemed to almost solely be geared toward stuffing more people and diplomatic functionality in it, which could have been accomplished with a more efficient Plumeria floorplan (neither floorplan is efficient, the Fuji just has more volume to dedicate). They're different visions to solve the same problem, but ones that can exist alongside each other because the end results differ more widely than apparent on first glance due to different ideologies.

I like the Fuji, I don't want to knock it, I just don't see her as a true Sakura successor. Different design ideology, different characteristics, different purpose. Using her as a basis for what the Plumeria upgrade 'should" have doesn't really seem to hold up, since her nature as a gunship is in and of itself even stated as a matter for IC debate.

Do you have any recommendations, noting all of this? I recognize that since the Fuji class might establish an artificial "cap" on what the Plumeria could be allowed to have, and since the Chiaki I envision is possibly replacing the Hayai, there could be issues.
 
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When Doshii and Kyoki worked on the Chiaki, the goal seemed to make it something of a scrapper. A tiny little ship that was tough and could brawl against its own weight-class. The Chiaki's mass drivers are actually a core component to its visual identify, not the aether weapon at its nose. It had quad cannons to go pewpewpew. It flies around, goes whoosh after the tail of that enemy ship and does bzzzzeep with its nose weapon before going pewpewpewpewpewpewpewpewpewpewpewpew!

The Chiaki is a pewpewship not a kwooshkwooshship. >_>

Also, the dual firing modes of the Chiaki's mass-driver made it one of the most powerful weapon platform Yamatai has that can 'safely' fight within an atmosphere without having to pull its punches too much.

* * *

I wrote more, but I was basically remaking the same point I was making above. So, deleted. Just remember that a great many things are judged in comparison to the Plumeria-class. If you uprate it and raise the bar, you raise it for the entire setting.

And what I see as truly dangerous there is that you're going to painstakingly balance it to succeed, turning it into some engineer's wet dream -- all the while being in the middle of being caught up in feature creep. Watching you go, you don't seem to have a finish line in sight, you're just iterating and iterating. Toshiro unleashed! This is why I urged caution. :)
 
Those mass drivers aren't going away. In fact, they'll be integrated into the Plumeria, but in a way that doesn't compromise that visual identity of the Chiaki. Both will also get the Plumeria's Positron Cannons. I'm still not sure of the speeds of the weapons though. 0.05c for the physical rounds is too small to hit much, and 0.99c for the positron shot seems excessive but is also a downgrade. The only advice I think I've gotten so far on that is "submit it and see what happens". Aside from the gunship variant I mentioned, which is a variant and not a replacement, I didn't plan on changing its main gun much. I do want to add some Ke-Z1 launchers, but trimming it down to two is an option. As it is, some fighter craft can carry more than the Chaki or Plumeria do.

The concerns with the Plumeria are potentially more valid, and need planning. It has more turrets since I managed to open up the nacelles to it and better integrate/space them. I can reduce the Mass Launchers on the Plumeria from 6 to 4 if the rear can be protected by Ke-Z1 missile launchers...the number of which is still quite up in the air. I could put in as many as 2 front, 4 ventral, and 4 dorsal quite easily. You say that's too much, others would complain that it's not enough and that yamatai's lacking in missile capability.

I'm trying to parse your concerns, other peoples' wishes, and the design ideologies into something that works. I need input on the details you'd aim for.
 
For round speed, FYI: the speeds are a bit of a mess. Don't hew to them too closely. Before we had to resubmit on salient changes, I tweaked those speeds without enough consistency or care. Trying to match rules when I should have been more patient. My fault.
 
Feedback is making me possibly lean toward two similar and cross-compatible modules. One without the Ke-Z1 (Chiaki), and one with the Ke-Z1 (Plumeria, or hypothetical Chiaki Gunship Variant)
 
I don't think there is a lot to worry about in regards to adding weapons here.

Fred already removed the balancing rules from the NTSE, so clearly it isn't that big a deal.

The Plumeria is also below-average in terms of 'amount of pew pew per SP' when rated against other common ships.

Yamatai also loves lots of turrets as seen on its most common ships the Sharie and the.... (blanking out now, whatever the other one is...)

If anything I think you would want to turret the torpedo launchers.
 
Hmm...either way, removing them from the pylon seems best. Working on it.

Edit: Removed them. Currently have 8 Ke-Z1 tubes on the Plumeria concept, separate from thie pylons. 2 Fore, 2 Aft, 2 Dorsal, 2 Ventral. Removed the rear-mounted mass launchers from the Plumeria's tail to compensate some. It's not intended nor practical to use all 8 on one target.

Base Chiaki has zero tubes due to the wishes of the Chiaki's creator and Fred's points. Chiaki Gunship variant concept has two forward-facing Ke-Z1 tubes.
 
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Alright, people. I need your help once more, this time in deck layout. I have a prototype layout done, and boy was I right about the layout's inefficiencies. Even with retracting turrets, more cabins, more toilets/laundry/baths split out, a two-deck bridge, and the like; the deck-by-deck deck plan fits almost everything in just 4 of the six decks.

I have thus created a number of images of deck by deck plans. Marked plans, unmarked plans, plans with transparency, and blankish plans. Each has a colored view of the decks from top down (1-3) and from bottom up (6-4), as well as a deck plan. The parts of the deck plan that are stuck due to the structures of the vessel are always represented by solid lines, in all pictures.

I'm asking people to look at what I've done, look at the design ideas, and help with the planning. Make your doodles and recommendations, and upload them! MS Paint is fine if it's all you have. The images are found here: https://wiki.stararmy.com/doku.php?id=wip:plumeria_refit_scratch#plumeria_refit_early_deck_plans

Please note that there are a few guidelines I'm trying to follow.

1. Increase ship compliment (more crew cabins and facilities, armories, medbays, escape pods)
2. Easy independent access to Armory and Medbay for separated PA Bay (Deck 1) and larger Shuttle Bay (Decks 2 and 3)
3. Leave upper bow of ship empty of essential combat systems (Decks 1 and 2)
4. Make most Crew Cabins at least 5m x 5m (current ones are a bit larger, assume each pixel to be 1 foot)
5. Make Isolated Cabins roughly 3m x 4m and isolated from rest of vessel (thinking that this is where prisoners or other unexpected people are kept. Evacuees or extra soldiers for PA might be kept here in a pinch)
6. Keep essential things and crew out of pylons if possible (Isolated Cabin occupants are either prisoners, PA-clad soldiers in a pinch, or evacuees with no other options available)
7. Place essential areas like Engineering and Bridge in center of ship for increased protection, maybe have quarters near them for key personnel and enlarge bridge?
8. Make Fabrication Area and Corridors between Fabrication Area and Shuttle/Vehicle Bays wide enough to move a T7 (or refugees) through if necessary, also allows for quicker boarding of refugees or extra forces.
9. More Zesuaium shutters, perhaps "strainers" (thin Zesuaium wires or blades across a corridor, concealed by volumetrics)?

The whole isolated section of the ship think might be abandoned or at least highly simplified into a brig later, not sure. I didn't like the fact that the Plumeria had to use its med bay to hold its prisoners. There's enough demonstrated need in the ship's history for that to be changed. On the other hand, sticking rooms in the pylons when the whole intent of making them thicker was to improve their structural integrity might not be the best of ideas.

Additional room types not found in the original Plumeria are possible if there is a need, though that should be discussed.
 
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Solid work as always.

On the topic of interior defenses. I think it would be really scary to know you live and work in an area that can be turned into a people-blender at the drop of a hat. Sure there are plenty of ways to rapidly incapacitate someone onboard a ship, but I think 'the cube' style death traps area bit much. I think at most I would go with shutters since they have a secondary purpose of also keeping air in or limiting the damage between sections.
 
I have to agree with Zack regarding the internal defenses; stuff that capable is typically the hallmark of villains, not heroes. Plus, you don't want them too much as a GM either. For an example, one of the shortcomings of the current Plumeria design, believe it or not, would be the defenses in the ventilation system. As a GM, it's less feasible to have something crawling around in there, and is one less thing the players can interact with.
 
Here's the new version. Far more refined image set:

https://wiki.stararmy.com/lib/exe/fetch.php?media=wip:plumeradecksrev3atext.png

I expanded Deck 5 into a supplemental deck for optional crew or refugees. This deck is more geared toward transport of infantry, pilots, or refugees than long term ship life, however. Deck 6 will be used for prisoners as well as an improved landing system. The Plumeria will have two pods, left and right, which will be used to improve its landing gear stability.
 
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