Polysentience

[Della]

I wrote a page on Polysentience, the Freespacer neural network.

https://wiki.stararmy.com/doku.php?id=fr ... ysentience

I still think it's missing something, but can't put my finger on what it is.

 

[Andrew]

I wrote a page on Polysentience, the Freespacer neural network.

https://wiki.stararmy.com/doku.php?id=fr ... ysentience

I still think it's missing something, but can't put my finger on what it is.

It is missing an active roleplay to back it up.

Is this good for the setting?

At this time I am going to have to say no. Until I see the Freespacers produce an active and productive roleplay aside from "spot lighting" in Nepleslian roleplays I am reluctant to approve anything this advanced.

This submission goes beyond the scope of laying an initial base of technology needed to begin roleplay and is very highly advanced.

I would like Wes to take a look at it; he can determine final judgement.

 

[SUBLIMEinal]

Er, Andrew, for the record, the Freespacers have had the Polysentience ever since their initial approval. Della's page here is simply a more in-depth description of it.

Also, we're trying to nix tachyons, Della. Please remove the references to them on the page.

 

[Andrew]

Consider this another friendly push towards them getting an active roleplay going. As I mentioned before -- I still want Wes to make the final descision concerning this submission.

 

[Strangelove]

This is amazing work that contains excellent depth of detail, as far as I'm concerned. My thumbs up again to Della my most awesomest writing minion.

 

[Andrew]

Also please try to remove the off-site linking. If references are needed you could use the foot notes feature to keep them out of the main body.

Edit:

As a note above posts I was not conflicting in terms of the article content; I am more concerned about the Freespacers putting down some serious RP to contribute to the setting. I think the article itself is lovely and very creative. I apologise for not noting those positive points prior.

 

[Wes]

Off-site linking to Wikipedia is better than copying articles or having nothing.

Anyway, my concern with this is that it essentially makes the Freespacers one single mega-character with many bodies.

 

[Strangelove]

He doesn't literally mean a borg-like hive mind, but rather how everything disseminates onto the modern internet; you can find websites and articles about love, relationships, sex, hate, war, cheesecake, ninjas, alien encounters, and so on. Not that this is literally a "know all, see all" entity.

As to the megacharacter note: Theoretically anyone can search up physics papers on the internet, print them off, and teach one's self about quantum physics. The same principal but using neural implants; It's like having the manual with you, but saved on digital memory. Carrying a textbook with you by no means makes you an expert on the subject, does it? It certainly helps, but having it with you doesn't mean you automatically understand everything written inside its covers instantaneously.

The whole "collective thinking" thing is actually a necessity. As you know long-term solitary confinement tends to degrade the mind and induce neurosis, and eventually insanity in more extreme cases. Since they spent the last century spacefaring with STL travel there many were people effectively in solitary confinement aboard their ships; going years or even decades without meeting others in person. Hence such a society would need and revolve around advanced telecommunications and virtual infrastructure.

Andrew, as I noted previously, my classes make it too difficult to maintain schedule consistent enough to govern over a plotship. I don't mean to take your words out of context but I hope you're not suggesting we stop refining wiki articles and adding reference information for players until a plotship is created, are you? I would have though that making more information available for players would help them understand the society more easily, thus helping to attracting more players. Once again this is a pre-existing system; Della just put it down in detail so its easier to comprehend. Given that other SARPers keep asking me what Polysentience is and how it works, an article detail overhaul apparently was needed anyways.

 

[Della]

Also, we're trying to nix tachyons, Della. Please remove the references to them on the page.

Will do.

As a note above posts I was not conflicting in terms of the article content; I am more concerned about the Freespacers putting down some serious RP to contribute to the setting.

I'm doing what I can. I think that if a race gets more detailed and fleshed-out on the wiki, maybe more people will play it.

Anyway, my concern with this is that it essentially makes the Freespacers one single mega-character with many bodies.

Like Jes said, individuals in the "hive mind" retain their individuality and unique skills. Polysentience simply allows them to contact each other in an incredibly efficient way.

 

[Andrew]

Andrew, as I noted previously, my classes make it too difficult to maintain schedule consistent enough to govern over a plotship. I don't mean to take your words out of context but I hope you're not suggesting we stop refining wiki articles and adding reference information for players until a plotship is created, are you?

I don't mean to take your words out of context

Question answered.

 

[Toshiro]

hijacking or disrupting this communication network might prove nearly impossible

This terminology (nearly impossible, almost invincible, etc) is quite frowned upon in submissions. Say it is extremely difficult, but please avoid this particular wording. Of course something like this, which I found later in your submission,

Theoretically, it's easy to hack into Polysentience, since it's large and has no protections or organized defense systems. However, its high rate of connectivity also means that, upon malicious intrusion, a potentially very high number of hackers could be alerted and mount a counter-attack. In many ways, it's like disturbing a beehive: the Free State has many very skilled hackers, and they take a very dim view of anyone who tries to damage Polysentience.

is fully acceptable.

and some of the more recent have a small STL capability (often Subspace), limited to between 1 and 3 light years.

Do you mean FTL here?

And every time anyone learns something that is new to said body of knowledge, he adds it to the database, for the benefit of all.

This was in regard to collective memory...is this automatically done, or do Freespacers stop and intentionally update their wiki pages manually? Please elaborate.

During the scarce few hours of sleep that a Freespacer enjoys, while his body rests, his mind is temporarily put aside (in a virtual reality) as his brain's computational power is made available to Polysentience.

Hence, a Freespacer's “dreams” are actually recreational activities played by his conscious mind, while the bulk of his brain is kept busy processing everyone else's information. Not a single moment goes wasted.

How does this effect the Freespacer's perception and cognitive faculties in the dream? Does it dull or just operate slower due to the lesser resources available? Also the Freespacer aware of what his mind is being used for and can he decline to give up resources if he knows they will be needed soon?

Even if a starship would get cut in two, the two pieces would not only still work, but be able to coordinate their efforts as if nothing happened.

I find this very hard to believe unless redundant systems were placed in both halves of the ship to make it operate if cut in half.

Individual Freespacers, while they still retain their individuality, are so acutely aware of “society” as a whole that they identify themselves more with the Free State than they do with themselves.

Reincanration procedures, the ascetic style of Freespacer life, and the effectiveness of Polysentience communications enhance this sentiment: When one Freespacer has the dozens, sometimes hundreds of previous incarnations in him, and can access the mind and memories of everyone else in the Free State, he has an higher opinion of the common collective than he has of himself. After all, he, as an individual, comes and goes, while the Free State endures.

In many ways, Polysentience and the Free State as a whole are remarkably similar to a single, titanic intelligent creature. Every single part of this creature works for the good of the creature itself, much like every single organ of the human body contributes to the well-being of the body as a whole.

Or, to make another example, Freespacers take on the role of individual neurons in a brain, and that brain is Polysentience. Just like a brain hosts (and not merely “is”) a mind, this composite “brain” hosts its own “mind”.

This structure (Polysentience as a sapient mind formed by the holistic union of many lesser sapient minds) is sometimes called “the Overmind” by Freespacer sociologists.

In spite of the comments to the contrary in this thread, this sounds alarmingly like what Andrew was concerned about. While everyone maintains their individuality in theory...it is all too easy to lose themselves in the hive mind and simply become an extension of the mind's will, especially if they rank the State above themselves.

I agree that Wes needs to look this over. And while Polysentience may have existed, its workings and limitations have not been defined at this level before. As such, it is still fully possible to reject this or demand it to be reworked.

 

[Strangelove]

I find this very hard to believe unless redundant systems were placed in both halves of the ship to make it operate if cut in half.

See Failover DCS.

In many ways, Polysentience and the Free State as a whole are remarkably similar to a single, titanic intelligent creature. Every single part of this creature works for the good of the creature itself, much like every single organ of the human body contributes to the well-being of the body as a whole.

Or, to make another example, Freespacers take on the role of individual neurons in a brain, and that brain is Polysentience. Just like a brain hosts (and not merely “is”) a mind, this composite “brain” hosts its own “mind”.

This structure (Polysentience as a sapient mind formed by the holistic union of many lesser sapient minds) is sometimes called “the Overmind” by Freespacer sociologists.

You're taking his words too literally, perhaps. I think he means more along the lines of macrolife, or Superorganisms. See also Social Organisms, Global Brain, Gaia Spore, or Collective Intelligence.

None of the above literally mean one giant organism or hive mind, but are metaphors for the way societies behave in the same way as organisms: Their highest priority is to survive, like all life forms. They need to consume (resources) to survive, respond to stimuli (learned behavior), they can become sick (corrupt), can grow in size, reproduce (create colonies, usually based on their own society), adapt to survive (revolt against an ineffectual government, give up luxury goods in order to help their nation's war effort), and so on. Virtually all traits of life can be seen mirrored in modern societies. Darwinism isn't merely limited to biology, after all.

 

[Della]

hijacking or disrupting this communication network might prove nearly impossible

This terminology (nearly impossible, almost invincible, etc) is quite frowned upon in submissions. Say it is extremely difficult, but please avoid this particular wording.

Will fix.

and some of the more recent have a small STL capability (often Subspace), limited to between 1 and 3 light years.

Do you mean FTL here?

Yeah, FTL. Thanks for pointing it out, sorry.

And every time anyone learns something that is new to said body of knowledge, he adds it to the database, for the benefit of all.

This was in regard to collective memory...is this automatically done, or do Freespacers stop and intentionally update their wiki pages manually? Please elaborate.

It's not automatically done, because not everything is important or relevant. But it's sorta semi-automatic.

It's really just like when your brain decides what to upload from short-term memory to long-term memory and what not to. It's one part conscious choice and one part automatic brain procedure.

During the scarce few hours of sleep that a Freespacer enjoys, while his body rests, his mind is temporarily put aside (in a virtual reality) as his brain's computational power is made available to Polysentience.

Hence, a Freespacer's “dreams” are actually recreational activities played by his conscious mind, while the bulk of his brain is kept busy processing everyone else's information. Not a single moment goes wasted.

How does this effect the Freespacer's perception and cognitive faculties in the dream? Does it dull or just operate slower due to the lesser resources available? Also the Freespacer aware of what his mind is being used for and can he decline to give up resources if he knows they will be needed soon?

Well, when a Freespacer is sleeping, he's sleeping. Their sleep is far deeper than a human, and it's harder to wake them up by force (you'd need the classic bucket of water, probably), because their brain is actually busy doing something else and their conscious mind is fooling around in a digital realm far more realistic than any human dream.
Freespacers who think they might need their resources soon might refuse to let others use their brainpower. Personal use is usually granted a higher priority then external use.
Of course, if for some reason their brainpower is needed for something incredibly important, then the 'spacer will usually offer their brainpower "for the common good" anyway, despite their personal needs.

Even if a starship would get cut in two, the two pieces would not only still work, but be able to coordinate their efforts as if nothing happened.

I find this very hard to believe unless redundant systems were placed in both halves of the ship to make it operate if cut in half.

Yeah, it's exactly how it's supposed to work. Freespacers use little or no high-energy techs at all (shields, for example) because using low-cost, low-tech, easily replaceable systems is the only way to have such sturdy ships.

Individual Freespacers, while they still retain their individuality, are so acutely aware of “society” as a whole that they identify themselves more with the Free State than they do with themselves.

Reincanration procedures, the ascetic style of Freespacer life, and the effectiveness of Polysentience communications enhance this sentiment: When one Freespacer has the dozens, sometimes hundreds of previous incarnations in him, and can access the mind and memories of everyone else in the Free State, he has an higher opinion of the common collective than he has of himself. After all, he, as an individual, comes and goes, while the Free State endures.

In many ways, Polysentience and the Free State as a whole are remarkably similar to a single, titanic intelligent creature. Every single part of this creature works for the good of the creature itself, much like every single organ of the human body contributes to the well-being of the body as a whole.

Or, to make another example, Freespacers take on the role of individual neurons in a brain, and that brain is Polysentience. Just like a brain hosts (and not merely “is”) a mind, this composite “brain” hosts its own “mind”.

This structure (Polysentience as a sapient mind formed by the holistic union of many lesser sapient minds) is sometimes called “the Overmind” by Freespacer sociologists.

In spite of the comments to the contrary in this thread, this sounds alarmingly like what Andrew was concerned about. While everyone maintains their individuality in theory...it is all too easy to lose themselves in the hive mind and simply become an extension of the mind's will, especially if they rank the State above themselves.

Like Jes said, it just means that Freespacers are... well, they're communists. And the main difference between them and real-life communism is that their particular brand of communism WORKS.
It works because people actually care for each other, and actually believe in the greater good. This couldn't be possible without Polysentience and its gift of "social awareness".

The point is that the Overmind isn't some kind of external mind that dominates individual Freespacer minds. It's not hierarchical or top-down. It's bottom-up: it's the individual choices and reactions of every single freespacer that make up the Overmind.

Try and think it like Democracy: suppose that every American citizen is called to the ballot box to decide whether, let's say, to invest in research for non-fossil fuels.
Suppose that the majority of American citizens vote in favor of the research. Now you could say that "America wants to research non-fossile fuels".
Now, "America" is not a person: it's an abstraction. But, in this case, this sentence is an expression of a democratic choice of its citizens.
Single citizens could be pro-research or against it, but now America as a country is in favor of it, and this means that every citizen must accept this.

This is not a choice that "America" made and then imposed on its citizens, but a choice the citizens made and, since the total sum of all American citizens IS "America", is also "America"'s choice.

It's a lot like that, really. It's not an invasive hive mind but more like a supreme expression of democracy, where the citizens decide for the state up to a point where there is a "will of the state", that is simply the sum of all the individual wills of its citizens.

 

[Toshiro]

Hmm. Valid points all. Still, we'll be waiting for Wes to make a decision.

However, in the meantime, perhaps it would be best to expand upon that last aspect of polysentience, since it's so easy to assume a Borg or typical hive-mind mentality.


However, I have one more question:

Since all Freespacers have access to the entire library of intelligence and experience, would this mean they all make decisions with the exact same data and experiences, and develop accordingly?

I ask because in such a society, it might not be possible for one to have a will independent of the state not because of a lack of free will, but a lack of individual experiences which no one else has. If everyone has the same experiences to draw from, then they are much more likely to reach the same conclusions in the poll boxes.

The only differences seem to be personality or demeanor, though I wonder what prevents those from fading over time and exposure to the "default", which is the standard mentality that the common experiences of the race as a whole would convey.


In short, while the "average" person does not really exist in a society mentally (there's ALWAYS a degree of deviation), polysentience actually allows networking to the point that everyone becomes that average not by force, but by logical conclusion. Even individual personality could fade over time, depending on how early one is introduced to polysentience. For a stable personality, access to polysentience would have to be delayed until a child's development was complete, and even then there would be no guarantees they'd retain individual personality.


No matter how a hive mind is structured, it's a risk that exists by design, albeit in a less malicious form.

 

[Della]

Hmm. Valid points all. Still, we'll be waiting for Wes to make a decision.

However, in the meantime, perhaps it would be best to expand upon that last aspect of polysentience, since it's so easy to assume a Borg or typical hive-mind mentality.

I'll do my best

Since all Freespacers have access to the entire library of intelligence and experience, would this mean they all make decisions with the exact same data and experiences, and develop accordingly?

I ask because in such a society, it might not be possible for one to have a will independent of the state not because of a lack of free will, but a lack of individual experiences which no one else has. If everyone has the same experiences to draw from, then they are much more likely to reach the same conclusions in the poll boxes.

The only differences seem to be personality or demeanor, though I wonder what prevents those from fading over time and exposure to the "default", which is the standard mentality that the common experiences of the race as a whole would convey.

In short, while the "average" person does not really exist in a society mentally (there's ALWAYS a degree of deviation), polysentience actually allows networking to the point that everyone becomes that average not by force, but by logical conclusion. Even individual personality could fade over time, depending on how early one is introduced to polysentience. For a stable personality, access to polysentience would have to be delayed until a child's development was complete, and even then there would be no guarantees they'd retain individual personality.

No matter how a hive mind is structured, it's a risk that exists by design, albeit in a less malicious form.

Remember that the Freespacer way of life incentives individuality (but not individualism) in its citizens, because greater variety = greater adaptation.

Plus, Type Three Freespacers were engineered specifically to be as mentally and creatively independent and unique as possible.
So, ironically, Freespacers would have a far greater "degree of deviation" than other races, because, unlike other societies, Freespacers WANT to be different from other Freespacers, not because they want to rebel or dissociate themselves, but because they want to enrich the Free State with their own diversity and uniqueness.

Your insight into this matter is very interesting, Toshiro.
In other circumstances, Freespacers would have already "averaged out" like most other fictional "hivemind" races, as you say. But since they recognize the importance of independent thought, personal creativity and variety, they designed their own system keeping this in mind. Specifically, Type Three 'Spacers, whose role in society is almost solely that of being themselves in order to bring and keep originality, creativity and variety in the Free State.

 

[MissingNo]

I think the difference is between "shared information" and "shared experiences". A hive mind would share experiences, that is what would give the hive its homogeneous "personality". However, all the 'Spacers are sharing is information. It's like reading a wiki. You don't get the experiences that the page-poster had, but you get the resulting information that they gathered from those experiences.

 

[Toshiro]

I believe the term "shared memory" is a bit confusing, leading one to think of "shared experience". If it really is just shared information, then it would likely work better, though you likely still won't have close elections on anything, since everyone has access to (and likely reads) the same data.

Also, if there are sub-sections who exist solely to be independent to maintain deviation, that is also a possible solution.

 

[Della]

So, in conclusion, what's the status of this submission? rejected? approved? on hold?

 

[Toshiro]

Andrew asked Wes to review it, so he has to before a ruling can be made.

 

[Wes]

I think the difference is between "shared information" and "shared experiences". A hive mind would share experiences, that is what would give the hive its homogeneous "personality". However, all the 'Spacers are sharing is information. It's like reading a wiki. You don't get the experiences that the page-poster had, but you get the resulting information that they gathered from those experiences.

This sort of thing needs to be clarified in the actual article.