Abwehran Star Empire's future

Meltra and Shongbiet would definitely get more Nep influence put on them than Yamataian influence, however, considering distance and nebulae interference.

I would like to still talk with whoever it is most pertinent to discuss with, having khorsolova adopted into the NDC as I have with a few before. It's a human colony the abs have had under a neutrality pact that limits their military movements and space traffic. They're basically like modern Japan where they can only hold a militia sized force. Seeing as they're a human colony and I had plans to do stuff there with Leonardo before he Departed the community, I would still wish to do something with them. Offer to bring them under the NDC's protection, but remain autonomous on the local level. They could benefit from NDC tech and commercial connections, and no longer be stifled by the abs neutrality treaty.

Only reason I brought this up here is due to their history with the abs, and the rough relations the two have. Which won't be in place if the abs get absorbed, and have even discussed doing some diplomacy on the matter between the NDC and the Abs for it.

I dont think after making two new indie worlds we should be looking to get rid of a different one.

Indi worlds arent there to be someday collected or colonized under banners. I think its a better idea to do what ye want there RP wise but leave any flags or official claims off of it especially since ye now have vice soon which is still a major indi system. Get some good relations with Khors, RP there, make some friends but leave any official claims off of it.

That area there now has three indi worlds (plus halna, etc) and is a possible place in the future to have a kind of independent worlds league (but without the freespacer pirates and just being a group of free indi worlds) which would be nice especially in the core of the kikyo sector which is accessible to all factions.

I'm in the 'leave them neutral/independent' camp for the reasons already shared. I think it would be good for more of the planets to remain unclaimed and unprotected by the major powers. Ignoring Jaspis' position as the Abwehran homeworld, I do feel that the system is probably in a spot that should be claimed by Yam in some fashion. It's pretty removed from their other systems and looks out of place.

I'd like to add that having a neutral buffer between Yam, the NDC, and the space that I think the NDC has been okay'd to expand into, feels appropriate. Yam/Nep/whoever claiming/protecting systems closer to NDC territory feels uncomfortable from an in-character view.

If we feel that planets must be claimed, then I'd like to request that ASE-006 be left independent and/or open for future NDC expansion. Partially for the reasons above, but also because the NDC is a nation of refugees. If their empire must fall, then I think the NDC as an option for refugees who don't want to be folded into one of the major powers feels appropriate. Selfishly, I was considering making an Ab character, so getting to make use of their look, culture, etc, would be nice when the time comes.

As for Vice, we've given up on that after all the backlash that was received and are trying to figure out what to do with the plot threads that had been in the works. I'll second Jack's comments on Khorsolova.

I still think its a good idea to leave most if not all of those worlds alone if we could. Though wes seems to have his heart set.

As including the ab worlds there's almost 8 mostly unclaimed worlds there that leaves a nice uncolonized zone to do indi stuff for people. And being in the core there's no need to offer any of those worlds protection because the only people who would be a threat to them would rather not war with each other over them especially since resources arent scarce.

They need Yamatai's protection so other factions don't grab them. Protecting independent worlds with Yamatai is the strongest protection in the setting. Yamatai is cool with leaving stuff to independent operation in its space. Independent planets post no threat to Yamatai. What Yamatai finds unacceptable is for other factions to move in on its borders. So Yamatai has a vested interest in occupying ASE-006 simply so that no one else does. It doesn't need to "own" the system it just needs to have military forces there so no one else can claim it. This goes for pretty much any other independent system on Yamatai's borders and it works well for systems like Halna and Valaad where Yamatai doesn't claim the system but they fight off anyone else who disrupts the independents. Yamatai likes having its independent worlds so much that when the Freespacers tried to violently take over Halna from the local Nepleslian indies/reds who lived there, the Star Army went in and killed them all so it could go back to being indie. And this is the sort of arrangement I envision for ASE-006 - Yamatai would assume control of the military base there and protect the system but otherwise it'll be business as usual and open for independents to go adventuring or exploring the cloud space or whatever GMs want to get up to.

Also I hate the idea of a league of independent systems, that would just make them into a faction which is precisely the opposite of independent systems.

I don't see where Khorsolova is on the wiki, can someone fill me in on what that is?

ASE-006 holds a strategic advantage to Yamatai as it shields Essia, a system that just got ravaged in the war and that needs to rebuild with some semblance of protection.

Not to double post tactlessly, but it dawned on me while looking at the map.

Ametheliana said:

ASE-006 holds a strategic advantage to Yamatai as it shields Essia, a system that just got ravaged in the war and that needs to rebuild with some semblance of protection.

Not to double post tactlessly, but it dawned on me while looking at the map.

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Exactly. You see now.

After reading through some more of the comments in this thread, I do still think that splitting, as crass as it sounds, the Abwheran Empire up may be the solution that rustles the least feathers. I'm in the camp of wishing they could be kept, like Ame and other people have suggested, as an NPC faction which still has claim to its own lands and is available as one of the last independent zones in the sector to play in.

However if that's not possible for some reason, having it split up seems the next best thing to having them remain independent, as it doubles the chance that the Abwheran culture remains intact and distinct and also seems the most likely to happen from an IC perspective if the Abwheran Star Empire were to collapse.

I agree. What does @Syaoran think?

The monopoly on violence or the monopoly of the legitimate use of physical force is a core concept of modern public law ... Weber describes the state as any organization that succeeds in holding the exclusive right to use, threaten, or authorize physical force against residents of its territory. ...

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- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly_on_violence

Occupying a system by having the sole rights to use force within that system, whether it be for protection or otherwise, is pretty much claiming it. I know it's not your intent, Wes, just calling it out.

If the goal is to protect the system from take over, then we could do that via a defense agreement between various parties (which the NDC would be happy to sign onto, I think). It accomplishes the same goal, but it makes sure that the system is truly independent, instead of a protectorate. It also maintains a buffer between the NDC and Yam, particularly Essia. We could even do some joint military exercises.

Yam putting their military force one system closer to the NDC's home system could be seen as some degree of threat. Obviously Yam doesn't need to worry about the NDC coming to mess with them, but the same is not true in the other direction.

Ultimately, I don't really get to make the call on what happens here - but I figured I'd say my bit.

As for Khorsolova, that's probably best discussed elsewhere so as not to derail the current thread.

The NDC is precisely who the SAOY wants to keep out ASE-006. It's important to Yamatai's defense of that region (particularly Essia) to keep any other factions out of it and if the Abwehran Star Empire breaks down we're absolutely going to move in on it for those in-character reasons. The goal isn't for Yamatai to uphold the system's sovereignty or something lofty like that, the goal is to protect Yamatai by giving Essia a buffer state. These aren't noble goals, they're practical ones.

I remember we left New Kohana as independent (it was part of Yamatai) so Kohanaians could live in peace and then, Nepleslians came in and claimed it. Lesson learned. If Yamatai wants something to stay independent, we have to defend it...and we will likely want ASE-006 to stay (at least somewhat) independent.

I don't want to get into an argument over a system that we're not trying to claim. The NDC gets challenged enough on system choices as-is.

Since I've said my piece and offered a solution, I'll respectfully bow out.

But why try to keep NDC out when they are a facto 10x smaller then the YAM Anyway I’ve shared my fair share of opinion on this topic and stick with the fully independence state in a NPC faction fashion is the best course of action. But let’s leave it up to the topic starter to see what @Syaoran wants.

I think the biggest threat to the independence and freedom of these systems if we're looking at it is factions that want to annex to take their systems to protect them.

also putting a YSE flag on them even under the guise of protecting them puts them under a regime who gets into a sector-wide super conflict every 4 years and despite how powerful they are and rich and full of resources they decided the little guys are fair game to take to expand their own agenda.

I think yamatai should use some of the IMMENSE diplomatic weight it has to keep such systems protected or untouched instead of annexing them and filling it with defense stations and ships.

OR BETTER YET.

Heres a goal for ye international relations summit. Rp it in the summit and if the final consensus is nepleslia gets two yamatai gets two. Make an official bout of it since yamatai cares about the opinion of its neighbors for once instead of just ignoring the political climate cause they are so strong they dont need to care so they get nepleslia in on a slice of the action who would 100% be the biggest opponent to any and every yamatai expansion near their borders but now they get a couple of systems out of it in the same area.

Then get a kind of officially signed decree between the two on the wiki that's all official-looking since neither side has done any new decrees or laws or signatory pacts or whatever and have it be the YE:42 independence pact where both of the supergiants agree to take two systems and offer protection to the other unaligned but independent worlds in the area (except vice for the NDC because why would either of them offer protection to a corrupt military junta?) so that way some of us can get our designated indi-zone that's not at threat of being swallowed up, Those planets have the protection offered when the next war comes without being annexed to make it happen, And maybe someone like me can work on those words in the future for their indi stuff without worrying about their work being forfeit because an FM in the future wants to make their already too-large green/purple/whatevercolor borders even bigger.

RaWolfe said:

But why try to keep NDC out when they are a facto 10x smaller then the YAM Anyway I’ve shared my fair share of opinion on this topic and stick with the fully independence state in a NPC faction fashion is the best course of action. But let’s leave it up to the topic starter to see what @Syaoran wants.

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If they're so small, they can not defend it. Yamatai wants that area protected and a faction more than ten times smaller than itself having it is not the way to do that.

Ametheliana said:

If they're so small, they can not defend it. Yamatai wants that area protected and a faction more than ten times smaller than itself having it is not the way to do that.

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Hmmm it got concluded that NDC was not going to have it due that there was no contact at all, I don't know where you find in my text the sentence that NDC wants it? Plus as I advocated in my last reply, I rather (my personal opinion) would see it as an NPC faction, independent and not under any flag. So let us wait and see what Syaoran thinks.

Historically, I find that a lot of things that would have made sense did not happen to the Abwehrans out of respect for their faction manager; and people whom subsequently took the torch.

Personally, I believe it makes sense for the Abwehran faction to become a protectorate of Yamatai. It has a lot of benefits.

• A protectorate might not entirely be assimilated into Yamatai. Meaning a lot of Abwehran tech may not be obsoleted by current KFY vessels. Not to mention the requirements for the Abwehrans to comfortably live - gravity-wise - aren't really that compatible with KFY designs.
• It allows Jaspis to involve itself into officer exchange programs where Abwehran characters can be created to function within the Star Army of Yamatai. The medical implications, as illustrated in the series Orville, can add some interesting spice to it.
• It allows Jaspis to have a Senator which can interact with the Yamataian government, while remaining relatively non-hostile with Yamatai.
• Abwehrans being a character creation choice within the Star Army may bring about the benefits of increasing their population.
  • If the Abwehrans, as a playable character race - is able to thrive, this allows for other arrangements to be made.
    • One would be a good candidate race to settle SAoY colonies, since they can be a better "heavy worlder colonists" than nekos can without being supported by technology. Involvement would make them a higher profile species within Yamatai (which I see as the best way to move forward for them)
    • Another would be that Yamatai isn't unknown for granting independence to its 'provinces' if doing so can turn them into valued partners. (OoCly, with a strong playerbase, Wes would have fewer qualms to them being independent - though I don't recommend it, since independent factions fluctuate in populations and eventually dwindle)

I'm unfamiliar with the NDC, so, I can't make recommendations on that angle. I would have thought , based on the history I know, that the second best choice to Yamatai would have been the Nepleslians (a faction which, historically, Abwehrans actually relate better with than Yamatai).

I left this thread a few days to simmer because I didn't want to influence the discussion or anything. But now that I'm back I'm going to be honest, for the most part I don't like what I see. This very quickly turned into a discussion about what the factions absorbing them get, it's also acting like ICly the ASE is doomed to collapse or something. The issue here is a purely OOC one, in that there has been a lack of interest and activity in the faction. They don't have a failing military nor a failing government. They are fully capable of protecting themselves.

Now I don't like the position of Japis as much as anyone, but I also want to point something out about that. Yes Japis is in the purple shading...but let's be really it's not really in YAM territory. Between Japis and ASE-006 there are only 1 Yam system, off to the west and do not interfere with a straight line between Japis and 006. Kepler's find is an uninhabited system that technically belongs to the ASE, but the last FM never actually finished it but it was added to the star charts. In short, you can draw a straight line from Japis to any ASE system except Neue Japis, and the only system that is Yam that you cut off is Essia. (You barely hit Gashmere when doing Himmel)

Right now the best option is looking like keeping them independent and NPC, and trying to draw more attention to them till they can become a full faction again, because right now it looks like there is not a high interest in making the ASE something greater than what it currently it. The few that are interested in that can come talk to me if they want and we can try and figure out some things to make a better future for ASE.