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Damage Rating and Structural Points System Revision

CadetNewb

Well-Known Member
As it is now, SARP is at an impasse - the Damage Rating and SP System needs some updating.

[18] Wes The DR system is set up to segregate armor stuff from personnel stuff. It's an issue with the system not the articles
[18] Wes I think armors being moved into the personnel category might do the trick.

These are just snippets; there's been several talks in the IRC, so I'll gather up a few points and edit this original post here as new points come up. So far, this is our primary problem;

- Infantry being unable to adequately damage Power Armor and Armor in general

With the following being secondary problems;

- Size grants no advantage in durability due to Structural Points System Mechanics
- Size grants no advantages in firepower due to DR System Mechanics

_____

These are a few key points plucked out of IRC discussion so far; this thread is for the discussion of possible solutions to a long standing problem, so ideas and feedback to said ideas is very much needed.

10/28/12

These are the suggestions to fixing/rennovating the DR system that have cropped up so far:

- Fred's "Priss Scale" system withs a further in depth explanation to it right here. It's a simplistic system which is geared primarily towards roleplay and how things are actually done between players and GM's in plots. The system goes from 1-15, with subdivisions of 3 each; a good amount of overlap between classes is also present, allowing for increased roleplaying flexibility than seen with the current DR system. Thus far, it is the system I prefer the most should changes be made.

- "Cadet's" suggestions on simply overhauling the current, pre-existing system to work more smoothly. The quotations there are present for a reason however. It's an amalgam of many, many solutions proposed by many, many players over a long period of time into something that looks workable. At this point however I'd prefer it, or portions of it, be selected only if Fred's system is not ultimately approved simply because it would be likely better than no changes at all.
 
One thing that Raz pointed out was to look at the descriptions. Perhaps instead of just changing the system or modifying it, why not add more to the descriptions?

Kai pointed out that back during WW2, there were soldiers armed with RPG's that blow a bit hole in a tank and most of those soldiers didn't wer armor of any kind. So adding additional descriptions helps.
 
Adding descriptions of what a weapon can do will help, but not as much as making changes to the DR system I believe - people will still look at the DR system no matter what, so more than that alone is necessary.

A while, back, I proposed this.

It's exactly what it says on the tin; a makeshift, fast change to the DR system, which also requires the minimal amount of changing to achieve what we want to get. Here, it's infantry having access to more powerful weapons that can adequately (adequate being the key idea) damage Power Armor, while also giving size enough benefits in both Damage Rating and Structural Points to be worthwhile.

EDIT:

Currently, due to it's age, it lacks several things, such as the inclusion of personnel ratings, as well as conversions between the two scales at the time of this post.
 
Okay so a big point is "infantry should be able to do damage to PA."

So I sat here and I thought about it and thought about it and then did some more. And I looked at the scale.

Infantry can do damage to power armor. PDR5=ADR1. ADR1 is all you need to harm any power armor in the setting, straight-up. Everything beyond that just lets you do it in an explosively spectacular fashion.

I think our problems come from a misunderstanding of the scale itself. The heaviest weapons that power armors generally carry operate on the low spectrum of ADR. Mecha/frames operate on the high side.

So your PDR5 rocket propelled grenade can still hurt a 25 foot tall mecha. But, as you can see in anime like Gundam and stuff, it probably won't unless you're a cool special forces operator who knows exactly where to shoot. That's why they send out another mech with a ADR5 gun powered by a massive 10 meter backpack to zoop it in one shot.
 
Well, that should definitely be the case against Frames, but even against power armor, that rocket is going to be shrugged off, hence, our problem I believe.
 
But that rocket won't be shrugged off. ADR 1 still does damage to all equipment using the armor defense scale.
 
I have to disagree; it's the mechanics of the DR system, not just the points involved that have to be taken into account.

Assuming we have a Power Armor with a hull rated at ADR 6, and shields at ADR 6 as well, wouldn't it theoretically require a full 60 seconds of constant reloading and firing by the RPG to eliminate the shields? The DR system operates off of how much damage is done within the span of 10 seconds, rather than the damage of individual shots fired.

That's why I think some more tinkering should be done to the system, perhaps bumping an RPG to ADR 3 for an example. It will still take multiple people to bring down one Power Armor rated the same as the example I just gave, but it will make a lot more sense I believe.
 
My answer to this problem is still the same as the one I raised some time ago in my musings on DR and the way it gets preferably implemented in the roleplay by GM while still being the trendsetter it needs to be to help with player perception.

Fred said:
Overview of the Fred's Musings on DR rating end proposal:
Third-Gen DR system


- Eliminate SP values in favor of GM/RP imagery as to how much punishment a target can take.

- Retain grade values of the second-gen DR system: this illustrate the armor's resilience/weapon penetration strength.

- Use a simpler 15-unit scale, combining the approach with the first-gen system with the variety of the second.

- The benchmark is that an attack of a rating equal to the defense value is potentially lethal (no one designs a rifle to be medium anti-armor and not expect it to do its job: possibly kill a power armor with a well-placed attack).

An attack value weaker or greater than the defense value will get progressively more/less damaging on up to 3 steps, where the damage caused will be minor or devastating. Lesser attacks beyond likely will cause negligible damage whereas greater attacks probably will one-shot kill (i.e.: Medium anti-personnel weaponry [2] on a light armor target [4] will cause minimal damage [attack 2 steps weaker than target's protection] ).

  • Range of values:
    • 01 ~ Light Personnel-grade protection/Anti-Personnel weapon
      02 ~ Medium Personnel-grade protection/Anti-Personnel weapon
      03 ~ Heavy Personnel-grade protection/Anti-Personnel weapon
      04 ~ Light Armor-grade protection/Anti-Armor weapon
      05 ~ Medium Armor-grade protection/Anti-Armor weapon
      06 ~ Heavy Armor-grade protection/Anti-Armor weapon
      07 ~ Light Mecha-grade protection/Anti-Mecha weapon
      08 ~ Medium Mecha-grade protection/Anti-Mecha weapon
      09 ~ Heavy Mecha-grade protection/Anti-Mecha weapon
      10 ~ Light Starship-grade protection/Anti-Mecha weapon
      11 ~ Medium Starship-grade protection/Anti-Starship weapon
      12 ~ Heavy Starship-grade protection/Anti-Starship weapon
      13 ~ Light Capital-grade protection/Anti-Starship weapon
      14 ~ Medium Capital-grade protection/Anti-Starship weapon
      15 ~ Heavy Capital-grade protection/Anti-Starship weapon


Suggested damage handling model was that if a medium armor survives a hit from a medium anti-armor weapon, it is likely compromised and will poorly fare an a repeat attack at the same location. More powerful attacks will tend to penetrate defenses and cause damage beyond them. Weaker attacks will likely gradually ablate/chew through the protection.

Suggested behavior for defenses such as the M6 Daisy's barrier protection is to count as 'temporary armor allowance', with an equal-rating attack 'draining' (halving) the protection, and the next 'depleting' it - weaker attacks drain it slower, larger ones topple it/overwhelm it faster. There's no precise science or math behind it - since that part is mostly handled by the referee.

Temporary defenses can recover equally fast, due to efforts from engineering crew (transferring/boosting power) to a power armored infantry soldier taking cover, taking a breather and allow his barrier to recover.
 
As I said way back, I like the system you have Fred. But the thing that worries me is how will the people here tell just how much tougher one thing is from one category in comparison to something from another. Or worse, how two things in the same category differ in terms of damage dealing or durability. Like I mentioned before, is there some way to combine what you have here with a DR System we're a little more familiar with to detail things more in depth?

That way, it would be more like having cake and eating it; a neat compromise between the two systems. I'm already trying to figure and imagine how to do so myself, but I'd like to hear what you have to say. Another concern is that combat with your system appears to be much faster and more bloody - right now, the 'Time to Kill' so to say seems longer in comparison.

_____

On a separate note, I have an updated version of proposed revisions to the current DR and SP system. It simply expands upon pre-existing mechanics to hammer out the three problems listed in the original post of this thread, but in a manner that cuts back on the amount of editing necessary in the wiki.

Naturally, it's just a rough thing, and far from complete or perfect; at the time of this post, there's a few things left un-tampered with, such as how Armor Scale converts to Ship Scale for an example, but I hope it will be a good place to start.
 
I like Fred's idea too, but I also do not think it should be Mandatory.

But his System is kind of self explanatory. Certain types of weapons do certain types of things. Plus Fred's system takes the emphasis off of technology and puts more back into the writing.
 
Exactly.

That's why I want to have a hybrid system instead; Fred's ideas would put more emphasis on the roleplay itself, while keeping some of the DR system would allow for some sort of meter to measure them all by, as well as for something tech guys can tinker with.
 
The inlying mistake you make there is that you have something that I have to do several pagedowns to cover. Hence, too lengthy/convoluted.

The goal of the DR system is to give a player insight in the effectiveness of his tools, and so portray the knowhow in-character. The problem of pushing it within the realm of 'hit point' is that it's woefully non-compatible with the freeform roleplay format SARP offers.

This isn't the job of any guideline/borderline-ruleset. That's the job of the referee. This is why I set two distinctions: 'potential lethality' and 'protection' with the assumption that if it's equal, it's meant to kill.

Why? Simply because that's the way it actually works. If someone grabs a knife and stabs me in the forearm, I won't die despite the weapon having the capability of killing me. Stab me fifteen times in the arm, and I likely still won't be dead (though bleeding by then will definitely be a problem and I'll be in a lot of pain if not already suffering from shock). But if you pierce a lung or gut me, I'll eventually die. Getting to my heart or brain will have me die in short order.

It's the same for power armor and ships. For example, power armors were always pretty much meant to have the upper hand on infantry and had weapons to kill infantry. But when other power armor came on the battlefield, anti-armor weapons came up. And what is the goal of an anti-armor weapon? Killing power armor... not denting it... not damaging it; killing it. This is why we should expect anything on the same tier to be potentially fatal.

It's why the structural points is a flawed concept to our storytelling method. It's why shielding is effectively a form of plotshield-style crunchability. Finally, the best ways to track damage in SARP have been to track the result of each wound and its consequences rather than base ourselves on an ubiquitous pool of nebulous 'take this much damage before dying' points. It's misleading, and it shouldn't be continued. It's also not really needed for tech submissions as a 'light', 'medium' and 'heavy' entry in each category is more than enough.
 
I absolutely agree that your system is superb for roleplaying, but, to better clarify my issue; how do you compare one weapon or armor with another of the same class? Looking at the Mindy, Daisy (without forearm shield which you relegate to a slightly different category) and Impulse for example, how do you quantify them when comparing the three? How do you show that one armor is slightly tougher than another?

The same goes with weapons - now with this RP and Story orientated system, it's much more fluid and dynamic, but possibly prone to more inconsistency and murkyness. If I wanted a weapon slightly inferior to the LASR in terms of killing power, but still within the same weapon class, how do I show that? But what about when comparing the HPAR and the LASR? Both are still assault rifles, but one is clearly more powerful than the other, yet without being the very most powerful weapon a Power Armor can hold; an Aether Weapon.

What's more, how will it handle ships being made by less advanced civilizations? Right now, they can make a ship of the same tonnage and class as a more advanced civilization's, but the DR system, in addition to 'soft' stats such as speed and rage, show that they're clearly inferior as well. I'm under the impression that with the current proposed system, we'd only have the soft stats to go by and a possibly inconsistent slew of RP examples to draw from.

I like the system you have Fred, but right now I don't understand it and all of its nuances, and also worry if even more problems have yet to crop up.

That's why I'm hoping that it is possible to combine it with a more detailed numerical system based off what we have here - for roleplay and general effectiveness in character, we'd defer to the system you have, but for which unit is superior or inferior within the same class, we can fall back to the harder numbers right alongside it.
 
Okay, maybe I'm coming off as more mean/aloof than I really mean to be. Sorry about that, CadetNewb.

One thing coloring my judgment is that for the last decade, I've been involved in forum roleplays. Before SARP, I was in a future-Megaman roleplay in which I had an admin role, and tried to implement this really detailed and well-thought out system. The problem with that, though, was that we weren't playing a tabletop game where 'book-keeping' was more organic. I ended up realizing that it was too cumbersome and got in the way of the roleplay proper.

When I transitioned to SARP, I immediately felt that the freeform roleplay here was significantly superior to the method I had tried to assign to my previous roleplaying environment. There's the things you detail, and the things you actually need... and SARP was putting the power mostly in the narrative, which was essentially what mattered in forum roleplays.

However, when I was looking into weapons, my newbie self was aving a hard time figuring out how a power armor could have a 'total annihilation' weapon in the same fashion a starship was. Seeing a plasma rifle do "heavy damage" while seeing a starship turret also do "heavy damage" was also somewhat puzzling. The [1-10] DR system first came out from my request to see this clarified.

But the [1-10] thing didn't work out all that well because it still didn't make a good distinction between the power armor and the starship in terms of damage - Mindy aether-sabers still did 10 while it was clear they couldn't one-hit kill starships.

So, we have what we have today now. I actually implemented it to make the difference there, but another thing I did try to do then was turn the ship combat narrative more like Star Trek. Which, frankly, was a mistake because SARP combat until then was generally really quick and decisive (even if I wanted more weapon exchanges). I was seeing Mindy armors get carved up bloody in moments, ships destroyed after a pivotal maneuver, and so forth.

The current DR system has you believe that having a SDR3 weapon striking a ship with 30SP diminished its health by 10%, and so you kind of expect it to be 'fairly threatening'. But in application, as a GM I found myself not really following the DR system, and going more with what seemed to make sense at the time.

This is why I champion the [1-15] DR scale I put up a lot more. It's not superfluous, gives more power to GMs to make thier own case-by-case judgment calls, sets broad perceptions more accurately and in line with the style SARP itself has, and finally gives justice to larger vehicles.

* * *

Now that I've utterly bored you with my exposition, I'm going to answer your questions. :)

how do you compare one weapon or armor with another of the same class? Looking at the Mindy, Daisy (without forearm shield which you relegate to a slightly different category) and Impulse for example, how do you quantify them when comparing the three? How do you show that one armor is slightly tougher than another?

First of all, this is one notion where I feel the similarities can sort of blur together. It doesn't really affect the player that a Daisy armor could be slightly tougher than an Impulse if the Daisy is the only armor used in a plot. The Impulse is not going to matter if it never shows up. If it does, it might be close enough that the difference is actually not blatant enough to be emphasized. Sometimes, the difference is really just design and mental imagery.

I'd personally classify the lightly-armored mass-production Mindy as 'Light Armor' (4). The Daisy falls with 'medium armor' (5). I don't actually know about the Impulse and I'll be lazy and not look it up. I figure a Hostile would fall in 'Heavy' (6) - NAM power armor always struck me as being more tanky at the expense of sleek curves and a bulkier humanoid shape.

I kind of like this, because just like Ira pointed out, the terms used as self-explanatory. In two words, I manage to convey expectation in classifying the vehicle itself.

The forearm shields of the Daisy and the arm-forcefields the Mindy can generate do indeed fall in a different category which is less the 'limited risk-plotshield' barrier systems would allow and more something that rewards player action/precaution to avoid damage altogether. Both can be temporary (the Mindy forcefields is power based, the Daisy's forearm shield will eventually degrade if exposed to sufficiently powerful attacks).

If I wanted a weapon slightly inferior to the LASR in terms of killing power, but still within the same weapon class, how do I show that? But what about when comparing the HPAR and the LASR? Both are still assault rifles, but one is clearly more powerful than the other, yet without being the very most powerful weapon a Power Armor can hold; an Aether Weapon.

When I look a the LASR, I see a weapon thatès made to be good enough damage to deal with a power armor, but better suited to mow through organic targets (like the Mishhu). It seems to fit right as an Light Anti-Armor weapon (4)... which is neat because it just happens to be that.

The idea of an 'inferior' Light Anti-Armor weapon would come to me as being something with a lesser rate of fire, lesser ammo capacity, and its range, durability, ease-of-maintenance. It could be less convenient to use, but still do its job.

Sure, weapons may feel more immediately fatal (even though I think they're accurately represented) but another point to consider is how the [1-15] thing also makes weapons that are lower relevant. Take the NBAR rifle: it's fairly powerful and meant to kill Mishhuvuthyar but it's not made to kill power armor. But if we take am Heavy Anti-Personnel weapon (3) and use it on a Light Armor (4) like the Mindy - catch the Mindy off-guard and that neko is not going to like how you're digging holes in her durandium plating, to potentially dig deep enough to get at the insert and her. The NBAR might not be expected to outright penetrate it, but a couple of shots on the same spot will compromise it enough to endanger.

A Daisy's forearm guns could just be Medium Anti-Personnel weapons (2). But that will also leave a mark on a Mindy, and would be strong enough still for a Daisy not to take lightly. The Hostile, though? That Nep soldier is going to be bothered by the jostling and his paintjob being ruined, but he'll wade through the assault as if it was so much rain.

And finally, for aether: an aether saber-rifle strikes me as having a superior ability to strike through defenses. Figuring what a Mindy forearm weapon can do, I'd label it as Heavy Anti-Armor. I expect the soldier in the Hostile to see a Mindy II closing to melee and expect that forearm light-projection to kill him if it hits him. A spray of energy needles will very easily chew through his armor.

But take that against an armored tank, and the scalar radiation releasing energy might not be potent enough to chew through all the matter in the way, especially when it gets to stronger, heavier exotic material... and the bigger vehicles are also more likely to ignore an attack small enough to not cause major damage unless it's very localized.

What's more, how will it handle ships being made by less advanced civilizations?

Does it have to? From what I've seen, the less-advanced civilizations like the Lorath and Gartagens are all too keen on getting even anyhow. But, to answer your question, it's all still a matter of expectations.

I could decide to have a starship plated in stealth armor to only offer the mecha-level protection. I could vote that helicopters and fightercraft, wanting to stay light, would have 'Armor' level protections even though their size lands them in the mecha category (fighterplane fights are usually sudden-death ones).

If I use a machinegun on a Cessna plane, I expect to make holes in it that will easily render it non-flight worthy, so we could label it as personal-level protection. Sure, I don't expect the machinegun to make it explode or destroy it outright like it'd do a person, but that's where common sense and having a referee comes in.

It's the same for a guy carrying a rocket launcher. Do you expect a bazooka to punch a hole in a tank? Then it's Anti-Mecha, power armors should not take it lightly even if it's just a random Joe lugging it around. And that's fine, because it makes sense. Besides, one of the points was making non-armored infantry matter more against power armor despite the latter still retaining an advantage, right?

A big fuel tanker might be as big as your average gunship.... but it's definitely not as well protected. Odds are a starship railgun will easily punch through it and fold it in two just because it's so damn powerful.

Technology-issues might not matter as much as intent. You could say that beam weapons are more convenient to sub-luminal mass drivers, but if the end result is leveling down a city-block, does it really matter what technology it came from? Today's nuclear missiles could prove a potent threat against a starship just due to the physics behind it making it threatening. Sure, advanced tech and engineering makes the starship potentially able to survive it, but there's really not a whole lot of difference currently applied to things that can level cityblocks to weapons that are planet crackers.

Also, fluff and design still separates superior designs to crude ones. A Heavy Anti-Starship Z1 Torpedo happens to be high speed and is homing and that makes it apparently stronger than, say, a Lorath ship-mounted railgun who could fire in a linear ballistic path at a lesser speed, even though we could term it capable of about the same amount of destruction in a different delivery method.

The NSP is technologically superior to the SiZi 79... but if you shoot either at someone, they still will probably die.

A more limited race might not have capital ship armor. It might not be able to do capital ships in the first place. It could lack the ability to make armor as thin as the one you find on KFY power armor, and only see that kind of armor on thier tanks. There are a lot of ways to spin this and be flexible.

* * *

At the end of the day, the nuances might actually not matter all that much. You mention hard numbers, but in a freeform roleplay, the only calculator you really need (and will use) is your imagination. If it's going to be this way, you might as well set expectations more simply, and give the leeway to arbitration where it will be taken anyways.

The security and assurance that seems to be signified by recording differences in hard numbers might look comforting, but in actually for GMs and players alike, it's worth squat. Which is why I say to implement what will actually be used rather than what sounds like it would be good to use. If SARP was a tabletop game, that kind of tracking would matter, but in our present medium, it's very redundant.

It doesn't matter that the Mindy has 6 SP, and that a tank has 20. What matters is that you don't expect the Mindy to survive a hit from the tank's main cannon. That you don't expect the Mindy to be able to outright destroy the tank since it's oh-so-much tougher than the Mindy is by the virtue of being bigger and tank-like. Odds are the Mindy-wearing neko will choose to more selectively disable the tank by focusing her attacks on its tracks, where the engine is, or somehow blasting through the hatch to get at the people driving it.

Is making a comparison between the Daisy and Impulse so important that it needs numbers to straight out express it? The description of how they work should be more than enough. Impressions will be carried out into expressions during the roleplay, and straight hard numbers will essentially be cheated. There's not much point to hard numbers if they're just going to be bypassed anyways.
 
My only comment is that any system while being used for Roleplay should also encourage consistent results. Otherwise we will see the same weapon having widely different results.
 
Well I think that is the idea Nashoba. Fred's system would leave the results of the weapon in the hands of the GM to describe. I think this is a good direction.

The best part is the fact that the system is intuitive. If you see a soldier holding a pistol you can assume it is a "1" and not a 15
 
'Can kill' is pretty consistent on a equal tier offense/protection standpoint. It's also realistic! xD

If the protection is higher, it hurts less. If the offense is higher, it hurts more.

It also eliminates the worry over 'this damage value represents X damage in 10 seconds'. No nononono: when you fire a machinegun all its bullets can kill. How is that applied? Again, that's where the GM comes in.
 
the only thing I would like to see with your list is a small table that gives some examples of items that would fall into these classes. So that folks using it have a point of reference, and so that when items are submitted to NTSE there is a standard to base decisions on.

Light Armor-grade protection
Medium Armor-grade protection
Heavy Armor-grade protection
Light Mecha-grade protection
Medium Mecha-grade protection
Heavy Mecha-grade protection
 
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