Digital Brains: How do they work?

Curiosity has gotten the better of me, and going through the wiki hasn't turned up much. I am a bit confused by the nature of digital brains. According to what I have found out a digital brain allows for the (for lack of a better word) programing of the rudiments of a personality, extremely efficient long term memory storage specifically semantic (understanding meanings and concepts), and autobiographical memories (episodic experiences), all managed by an OS.

However, from posts on the site, I am lead to believe that a digital brain does nothing for procedural memory ("muscle" memory). A being with a digital brain, even if a skill is encoded at expert level into their semantic memory still needs to practice to form the procedural memories needed to use it. For evidence I take Kai's character on the Illustrious, who needs to practice fighter piloting even though, as a Neko, she probably had the skill encoded when she was transferred.

Now the way memory works presents a bit of a problem here. Long term memories are encoded in purely organic brains by physically growing specific types of neuroconnections, creating a complex web of associations between them. The more feelings or concepts you associate with a specific memory or skill, the easier it is to recall it. This is why mnemonics work well for memory retention. It is also this vast web of neuroconnections which is currently believed to be responsible for constructing a personality. Basically our memories help shape us. As shown on the site, by the differing personalities of characters, a digital brain does not interfere with the natural "growth" of a personality only the rudiments.

By this evidence I am led to think that a "digital" brain is more appropriately a techno-organic system. The genetic code governing the growth of they temporal lobe and hippocampus have been severed in Nekos and Yamataians and those lobes replaced by intrusive cybernetic implants that the new-born brain grows around. The cerebelum, governing muscle memory, is left alone due to the absurdly complex nature of its relation to essential areas of the body. The frontal lobe, which consolidates and analyzes memories to synthesize new information, also appears to be left alone, though it likely has either technological or organic "add-ons" to govern telepathy and gravity control (my money is on technological). the Personality programing can be explained by stimulation of the growth of specific neuro-transmiters to connect to the digital memory implant, forming the associations of specific emotions and feelings with memory.

Of course all this is just guess-work on my part, and I would rather not rely on it if my character ever has to perform the nightmare of neuro-surgery on a Neko or Yamataian (tissue healing while surgery is being performed = NO FUN). Thus I would either like confirmation or correction on how exactly a digital brain works both to better play my character and to satisfy my own voracious curiosity. Thank you.

I have great interest in this, but I couldn't begin to answer the question.

This should also be related to how Yamatai's "digital telepathy" works.

Well one thing to remember is that Soul Transfer copies a person's entire memory and personality into a blank mind. So it has to be able to write both procedural memory and semantic memory. To the extent that the person is identical to the state the backup was made at.

Copying memory and personality through ST could probably be accomplished by mapping the specific electrical impulses and connections in the brain associated with specific memories and then having the implant emulate them to fool the rest of the brain with the personality also achieved pretty much the same way by stimulating the growth of certain connections to the implant.

I'm leery about the possibility of procedural memory being cybernetisized (is that even a word?) because I have trouble wrapping my head around a non-organic system being able to grow and change in such a way that people need to practice. I think a good work around might be to just copy and paste the same explanation above (yay for my originality!). Though that wouldn't explain why it isn't standard to just do that for whatever skill you want. Like popping out instant expert marksmen that can hit a gnat off of someone's head from 5 miles away using iron sights.

My own pet theory is that ST technology is a wholly alien one that works on principles I can't even begin to explain or comprehend. It just somehow works and helps direct how the new brain is grown in the vat, which probably unnerves my character if true. Post-singularity technology tends to do that for me in general. The reverse engineering of it in this scenario wasn't so much understanding how or even why the heck it works (maybe even against all science and logic as the characters know) so much as figuring out which button is "record" and which is "play" and how to copy-paste the design. For me at least it lends an air of mystery and, to be honest, magic about the technology. My character doesn't know how it works. Quite possibly no one really does. And yet they have to rely on it. Opens up some interesting plot ideas in my head on what might happen if you start trying to mess with it. Spices things up a bit, though I suppose it might be an acquired taste.

That would of course depend on 1) Just how "alien" the Elysians are (which doesn't seem to be very much at all). Or failing that 2) They either found it somewhere, were given it, traded for it, or maybe even stole it from another alien race themselves in a grand bit of irony.

The digital telepathy is in my mind a bit easier to explain. Its likely a cybernetic implant that acts as one part transmitter, one part receiver of whatever means of wireless communication you desire. The rest of the implant is devoted to emulating electrical impulses in the brain that you get from hearing something. So it works a lot like a third ear. Each one is probably encoded towards each person and the implant interfaces with the digital memory to figure out what pattern of impulses to send to emulate the voice and tone of the person you are in contact with. Would probably make telepathic contact with strangers very monotonous, lacking in inflection and such, until the implant is able to figure out how to make them sound.

I'm more interested in how gravity control is explained, personally. Does it work outside starships? I can't see an implant controlling gravitons (if those exist in this setting) or causing mass shadows or dimples or depressions or whatever the terminology is.

Okay, Just to stop it before it gets too ingrained in your mind, as far as I know, and have been told/read, there are absolutely no implants in Nekovalkyrja and Yamataians. All of their special features and abilities are presumably produced by genetically engineered organs which are always present within the body; If it was an implant, neither species would be able to reproduce successfully.

But then why are they termed digital brains? And that does not explain the well organized memory databases or how an OS could be installed onto them. The memory thing may be possible but only (in my pitiable imagination at least) with a horde of nano-bots swarming around the brain making sure everything is connected and organized correctly. Additionally I would contend that Nekos at least do have at least one cybernetic implant in the form of their SPINE interfaces.

The reproduction aspect is certainly a problem, though it might perhaps be explainable by nano-machines assembling the implants in utero with the brain growing in around it. Would probably involve pregnant Yamataians and Nekos having a diet very high in metals.

I am sorry if I am coming across as a little bit pithy but I simply don't understand some of the terminology relating to digital brains, or how you could get a computer-like memory and even interface with a purely organic system that is not so regimently controlled that I would be surprised if it hadn't been abused for memory manipulation or outright mind control yet.

That being said I would be interested in learning how a purely organic system like this could work.

By digital Brain, they simply mean that the brain has an OS, and is set up like a computer's software would be, sort of. Everything within the system is Organic, none of it is mechanical. Even the SPINE interface is organic. Just step back, and start letting go of reality, and just get it into your head that, at this point in the future (It has been estimated to be around 20,000 years ahead of our time) They are perfectly capable of making organic computers, and having organic parts that can do the same things as metal machines and cybernetic implants.

Gravity Control is a vestigial thing left over from a long time ago, so don't worry to much about that.

Telepathy is the same sort of thing, psychic powers are being phased out entirely so what is called telepathy is really just radio communication using their bodies inbuilt receiver/transmitters.


It has also been stated that their brains are small quantum computers, so I would imagine that everything works just like a computer. Memory can be written to or read from, copied, ect. This of course would mean it isn't structures like a human brain with neurons and goey bits. Yes, nanomachines are responsible for this.

Also, it is possible for memory manipulation and mind control to be carried out through data manipulation. Fortunately there are very few tech savvy players here on this website to think of doing things like that. These are really good questions to be asking and it shows that you have serious critical thinking skills.

Play as a science officer.

Forgive me, but purely organic computer technology is difficult to wrap my brain around. One of the first things I learned in psychology was that Brains are not computers in any way shape or form. That they don't operate on the same principles and don't work in remotely the same fashion.

I can see where you are coming from that at one point yes it is likely that the organic/non organic divide in technology will be pretty much a moot point. But I can't claim to understand it. Yes it might be a deficiency on my part but I simply see an implant solution as easier to grasp and just making more sense.

I am curious though as to why cybernetics aren't good. Even with a healing factor it could simply be a matter of excluding the brain itself from it, or even providing an exception to the implants. Or perhaps even the fact that the brain in part is built around it allows for a lack of rejection.

On the other hand if organic computers are ubiquitous in the setting then I will certainly have a lot more in common to talk about to technicians and computer people than I originally though ^_^.

"Doctor! The ship's computer is acting up again!"

*sigh* "Time for another exploratory surgery, get the laser scalpel please.....and a sponge."

The Short answer to your questions, and the best I can give is this:

Because Wes Said so.

Fair enough.

I would still like to know exactly what they are, how they work, and why cybernetics don't work on them. And maybe for a wiki entry on digital brains to be made just in case I forget about this. But I can be patient without my medication no matter what the nice people in white suits say!

Ahem. Sorry 'bout that. Anyway until Wes descends from on high to grace me with an answer to the sounds of a choir of celestial trumpets I will ignore my assumptions and hope my character doesn't need to do brain surgery....or quantum computer surgery if that's the case. Would I have to call in a computer techie to help with a bad concussion? Something for me to ponder at least.

And I may make a science officer Uso, but I would prefer to wait to make another character until I've gotten my doctor established.

Cybernetics do not work on Nekos, and Yamataians because of their regeneration. Their body would reject any implants.

Science guy Osaka here.

Forgive me, but purely organic computer technology is difficult to wrap my brain around. One of the first things I learned in psychology was that Brains are not computers in any way shape or form. That they don't operate on the same principles and don't work in remotely the same fashion.

Click to expand...

Ok, this is bull. The human brain does compute. It will perform programmable functions - just like a computer will - but it works very differently in terms of architecture.

I'll explain something now. almost any action can be reduced to a computable action which can be emulated or estimated in a computer of greater power or scope except for those which are irreducibly complex or implicitly un-computable by their nature. It may not happen in realtime and may be seemingly impossible to program but has been proven. If you don't believe me, look up Stephan Wolfram and do some reading on un-computability.


Now we've got that out of the way, let's examine how complex actions (for example thoughts) work:

• 
  Complex actions and behavior arise from very simple systems. Objects from atoms, atoms from sub-atomic particles, sub-atomic particles from fundamental particles, fundamental particles from either stringlets or gauss-fields (depending on your opinion) - etc, etc, etc.
  
  Now. The actions of a human mind are special. They work through what is known as neural branch prediction theory. Rather than working through direct circuits and switches, things happen through redundant pathways and estimation via neurons. This to say rather than storing data digitally (or as raw data) the brain stores it as references to other references and it is this vagueness which builds a complete picture of a higher resolution of understanding than a computer can form.
  
  A computer itself is just a number cruncher. The human brain is a series of pathways performing constant environment and stimulus analysis - writing and adjusting itself accordingly to perform at its best.
  
  
  But we can emulate this function. It is not irreducably complex because it begins with a very small number of very simple parts all talking to eachother. The complexity arises from very simple parts.
  
  
  Some actions are very detailed, like the parts which regulate our bodies. These are chemically dictated and truly ARE like computers, performing calculation and estimation like some big computer-controlled environmental control system. Yes, it takes analysis from our minds and not just our bodies and our brains but it is automatic.
  
  You can replicate this very easily with the right kind of computer.

Let's try this:

• 
  Our brains store things in clusters composed of neurons and pathways. The number of possible 'states' or 'meanings' rises exponentially with the number of connections. All we have to do is emulate this and have a similar arrangement of emulated neurons and pathways.
  
  Yes, it will be hard to do but we already have a fantastic model to work from - Us!
  
  It makes sense to start with something much simpler like a mouse or an insect.
  
  In fact computer processing power of the best super-computers is about on par with a slightly retarded cockroach at the moment in terms of emulating neural behavior - something computers are not very good at.
  
  This means we'd have to examine the architecture of a classic Von Nuuman processing computer. Either we emulate the actions of neurons in software or we do it in hardware.
  
  
  • 
    In software, we do it digitally. We create pretend neurons which are then easily engineered and doctored and rapidly 'evolved' (that is, sculpted by environmental input). You can then rip out anything you don't actually need and 'bake' the number of neuron-states into a much smaller number of only desirable actions. Behold: Designer artificial brains: AI!
    Minds made this way are very constrained but highly useful. This is really the foundation for any good solid AI.
    
    • 
      Of course, we could prepare a software environment emulating all the inputs a body can expect and atomically 'flash photograph' the brain, laying it either with emulated-chemicals or with artificial neuron-connections inside the computer. This creates a software manifestation which acts independently from the real thing (different stimulus).
      
      It can be quite fragile and prone to breaking because of the fidelity of input. If it realizes it is a simulation, can you imagine the damage this will cause to an ego?
      
      It would be terrified. It would break down. But for the field of psychology, this would be remarkably useful as no damage is done to the original. Sadly, it creates a bit of a legal gray area, too since it really CAN feel pain.
      
      For modelling human behavior without damaging an original though, it doesn't get better than this.

But let's look at the more prevelant method: Physical emulation.

• 
  So we create a special machine - a computer that uses neurons instead of switches (like we do) but has portions which DO use switches (which we don't do). We can create a designer brain and recognize how functions and pathways work and how to recognize them, creating a physical designer brain.
  The pathways themselves are what make the mind and thus we can do a big 'read event' and copy all the pathways to a save-file. They must be extracted back out onto a brain-machine to work (or emulated as seen above) but this is a brain we can physically replicate and transmit (though it won't execute outside of its own environment) -- ergo we have a digital brain (the data can perform digital actions using switch based systems, be stored digitally, read digitally, processed digitally and written digitally, actions using only very basic equipment).

Because their brains and bodies chemically erode objects which are deemed hostile (for example implants) they don't last long and the surgery relocating neurons lasts two or three days at best so while implants DO work they don't work FOR LONG and they're rejected very quickly.

Instead their natural chemestry has them wired to emulate physical connections using bone and nerve fiber down their spines - a technology known as SPINE Connectivitiy which the majority of Yamataian weapons rely on to function properly. SPINE can be seen in fighter controls, powered armor and any big high-resolution high-cost data interchange system.


The best part is we can emulate these brains and their possible environments with our massive processing power and work out possible problems and how to fix them. This is why Yamatai asserts their dominance as a nation so powerfully: They truly believe they are superior because they've been engineered this way.

Yes, they have childhoods and they learn but the brains are doctored from birth, just like a designer baby is screened for diseases and weaknesses genetically before birth. I'm not knocking them: Its a very good system but it isn't flawless because you can never completely understand the human mind: the moment you try to, it changes and adapts and these adaptations can only be predicted so many times over.


On Yamatai, everybody is beautiful.
On Yamatai, everybody is smart.
On Yamatai, everybody should be happy.

But are they?
That is part of our adventure.

Perhaps it would have been batter if I had qualified that rains don't work like any computer I am familiar with. Very little of the science fiction I have read to this point have dealt with that level of biotechnology. Probably why I had so much trouble wrapping my brain around Chapterhouse: Dune in retrospect. Anyway, thank you very much for the explanation. I think I get it somewhat now. You might have already explained it but I do have a couple of last question as to how the digital memory is kept regulated after the initial construction of the digital brain from an ST "save"? I had guessed nanotechnology but I don't know if DNA manipulation is complex enough to be able to have it be self regulating. How does the construction of a "natural-born" brain work? Is it the same as above? How does downloading new skills work? Is it simply the induced growth of new neural pathways? How does the digital telepathy transmission actually work then? Is there an ancillary organ attached to the brain that does the job? And finally how much overlap can my doctor expect to have in his job with computer techie people? Are all Yamataian computers digital brains? Am I able to act as a hardware (or would it be wetware?) guy?

It also occurs to me that a body that corrodes all foreign material that enters it could be easily turned into a tremendous disadvantage, especially if medical attention is needed in a lower tech environment. Though with my track record so far I am likely mistaken.

I am sorry if I do seem a bit slow, so thank you for having patience with me anyway. This is unfamiliar speculative water I am treading. I do see your point Osaka about how this makes the adventure interesting. To which I would add this, if I may, which has been floating through my head about Yamatai for some time.

I am superior
I am stronger
I am faster
I am smarter

I am as above you as you are above ants
My excellence in all things places me morally above you
Only I and mine are worthy of being called Human
Animals should know their place

An animal can be cherished
An animal can be loved
An animal can be clever
An animal can be useful

But an animal is not human
You are not human
So know your place.

This is all very interesting ... but it doesn't mean a damn thing to the role-play, which is what an answer to this question should address.

Kai's the only one who's given an accurate answer so far. Wes should get in on this.

Also, we should be careful about mixing science with opinion. Osaka says, "They truly believe they are superior because they've been engineered this way." That's an attitude, not an engineering feature. Let's keep that in mind, please?

I suppose we can simply think of OS as an artificial component in Freudian psychology (which we know as mostly being wrong). The OS of bioroids such as the Yamataian and Nekovalkyrja could be likened to the ocean in which the iceberg that is the concious and unconcious mind floats. It may be accessed by the conscious mind and always there, allowing for any number of banal usages for a digital mind (such as manually configuring your biological clock to wake up at a given hour) and accessing abilities that are not inherent in baseline humans for the first few times or as needed (telepathy, grav control, managing body processes).

At the same time, there's always a chance that the mind is entirely dissolved or overtaken by the OS, such as when ST data is stripped from a body or failsafes are overtaken.

So yeah, like an id except you always have it and it serves more as a mundane utility than a pervasive psychological driver.

Kai's description describes the NH-29 nekovalkyrja brain nicely, so, I'll leave it at that and spare you technobabble I'd have to spend a day searching for on Wikipedia. Heh.

More importantly is how the NH-29's digital mind has gained a nearly analog aspect to it.

Prior nekos had an OS, and extensive control over that OS and it's different functions. It afforded them with a lot of control over how they functioned. However, that kind of micromanagement was grounds for people (including myself) hatching gadgetry (a.k.a.: stuff pulled out of our behind) which generally creates headaches for GMs.

So, today's (YE 31) digital minds are much more intuitive and "user friendly" to the person concerned, it's like the mind, consciousness and perception of any of us forum members. The exception is that with thoughts, we can create files from what our senses record - either to make a "screenshot", an "audio file", a "video", text and such.

Those media I can access in my mind, selectively browsing through my memory for digitally stored data. Non-digitally stored data I recall just like a human being would, but seeing my mind is digital, I can recall things pretty clearly. However, since my memory capacity is vast, but not infinite, I would tend to compress older memories and archive them. If I try to recall those on short notice, well, I'll only have a thumbnail of the memory, meaning it'll seem pretty vague and distant to me. I can always sit down and concentrate, allowing me to recall more of the data as I de-archive it (compression being what it is, though, I might not be getting back 100% of what I archived).

If I assimilate a whole lot of info, I could get 'stuffy headed' just like anyone else today. Sleep or rest is usually a good moment for the digital mind to reorganize all that stuff so that I can stay clear headed.

We can create networks between ourselves and another person too, if it's within our range. I can think of a written message, and once that message has been "thought-out" (meaning I have the memory capacity to exactly recall what could be paragraph-worth of text) I can mentally send it. I've the choice to either mentally talk realtime with the other person, or to send text. Telecommunication this way (I'm creating an audio sound file of myself talking, "thinking aloud", as it were) and sending it is typically much faster than speech so it's really useful in sticky, you-need-to-plan-quick situations. Text messages are sent once composed, so, usually you can put more thoughts in those.

Gravity control works mostly like swimming. Like a person whom has learned how to swim, I would be able to intuitively alter factors needed to make myself move in the selected direction. Both nekos and Yamataians have to learn how to use their gravity control, just like any human would need to learn how to swim.

Would I be a neko, I would have the inborn ability to initiate the creation of a youngling. Usually, that starts with feelings from curiosity to longing on the matter as I contemplate the idea. I couldn't decide on the fly - "I want a youngling". It's a building up thing so that the decision is not rashly made. Once I would've grown increasingly certain, I could -decide- to initiate the process in my body. Then, I'd have feelings and impression as to the progress of my growing offspring, accurate hunches on certain queries I could wonder about in regard to 'her' wellbeing.

Youngling's are usually self-clones - I would only have my own 'genetically engineered' material to play with as my womb would define the youngling's traits and features. However, medical doctors have the capacity to interface with my SPINE connection in order to help me edit those settings. For example, if I wanted to join my genetic material to one of my crewmate - whom I could be really fond of, perhaps even romantically - the Doctor could help me mix and match traits from that additional pool of genetic material and then upload that into me so that my womb could work with those extra parameters.

It's as close as it gets for procreation with nekovalkyrja. Yamataians don't really have that function since they're configured to simply go as the birds and the bees do.

* * *

This should answer Anfortas' question on how the digital mind works from the perspective of the user.

It only answers the question if 1. that's what Anfortas wanted to know, and 2. it's what Wes decides the answer is.

This isn't something a GM, Global Mod or Administrator can answer. This is potentially central to Yamataians and Nekovalkyrja as species. Wes should decide.

That decision could involve signing off on an explanation in this thread, but it still has to be his doing.

Fred's post above is pretty much how I see it, too.