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Discussion: Tweaking FTL Travel

Fred

Retired Staff
I'll agree that passage of time is one nebulous value in the SARP. There is, of course, the issue of story pacing, but another element I feel hinders the IC time is the speed at which the plotships go.

Take the Sakura-class ship (the fastest KFY warship) : The Sakura Gunships can move at 300 000c with their CDD, which allows them to cross over 10 light years in something like 2 hours. This is fast, really fast! The closest science fiction analog I can find is the Enterprise-E (from the Star Trek Nemesis movie) that goes at a 199 516 c... and that's at it's top speed of Warp 9.9999!

Alternatively, the SA's ships possess hyperspace fold drives. This allows them to move even faster in a linear path and a warm up period to 'jump'... that takes a minute. Then, off they are, crossing several light years through the span of a minute... the Sakura gunship itself crosses 20 LY in a minute; making that 2 hour trip for a CDD last only 30 seconds.

Both those technology would allow a SA captain to leave the capital, go explore an uncharted system 40 LY away, make any sentient species submit to YSE rule and be back to Yamatai in time for supper.

Not to mention the tremendously high speeds the SARP's ships go at makes the use of the AS-7 torpedoes (those go at 17 532c - that's 2 LY/hour) somewhat doubtful since the ships don't really need to shoot them down : all they have to do is steer clear of the way. Easy really when you move at a speed that makes the torpedo look as if it's crawling toward you slower than molasse.

However, the main impact I feel the powerful CDD/fold technology do is to remove the possibility of travelling downtime, given that a ship can reach a destination within just a couple of minutes. It offers no time period in which the characters can carry out routine duties, train, do research. Of course, plotships are generally always busy - but the pacing the plotships (at least the Sakura) are put into are very hectic (making for a storyline to suffers from the hurry-up-and-wait syndrome).

The YSS Sakura's science officer, Miles Gunn, has done work to dvelop some new technologies : the NH-S miniature neko and a trend of 'new' laser scalpel. Both were submitted to the Ketsurui Zaibatsu and he was handsome paid for his efforts, yet, when I find myself looking over the time Miles had since when he became active (Sakura Mission 2) and now... the amount of free time Miles had to actively research to create his new bio-engineered creature (even if he was going from a NH-27/NH-12 template) would have only been several hours - probably less than a day total. I understand he's a genius and all, but not only do I feel making bio-genetically created beings take longer... but the span of time he spent on it really devalues his work as well. If he tookonly a few hours with the concept of a NH-12 put up to NH-27 specifications... anyone with a background as a bio-geneticist would have been able to do the same... or probably better if they invested more time in it; making Miles' accomplishment quite lackluster.

Not that Miles isn't competent in his field, but having the proper time to work on such research would show well for him, just like having Kotori be given downtime to do on-site officer training would help her as well. Of course, I'm not saying that downtime should be played at length either - we're all here to roleplay our characters through interesting events... not just watch them putter around. I feel it would be easy the plot GM ask his players what they intend to do in the meantime, make a narration to speed past those few events - an so be able to span days, weeks - heck, even months that way if needed without really crimping any storylines. It would conveniently give the in-character personas some time to breathe too.

Furthermore, another point I feel the high speed hinders is the concept of deep space exploration. Like the example above shows, you can leave, go do some 'deep space exploration' and be back in a scant few hours. It really gives the concept of long-range operation a crimp. Of course, the starmap has been widened considerably... but even then, it only takes 4 minutes for a Sakura-class gunship to cross over 80 LY... I'm not saying that deep space voyages should take everybit as long as the pirate boats Wes oh-so-loves should... but evidently, I feel some passage of time would really add dept when dealing with space travel.
 
I have commented upon this to a degree in my post in the "Tech Discussion" thread a month ago. The speed of ships in this game are such that they contradict they contradict the settings own history and actions. With the speed of ships in this game (along with a hideously large industrial capacity; see-> multimillion ship fleets) the YSE should have spread like some sort of galactic plague. The fact that it has not done so, despite having the capability and a desire to (seeing as it is running a colonization effort) to do such is unexplainable. Simple incompetence on the part of fleet command and the government cannot explain such a massive failure.

Further (as I have also said) combat in this setting is not representative of what ships are capable of. A system far more reminiscent of modern day tactics is used, despite a massive jump in the speed and lethality of ships. The speed of ships (in comparison to that of power armors) means that PAs should be near useless when it comes to space combat, since the body simply cannot move or react fast enough to deal with superlumial ship combat, or even near-c combat.

Also, please note that while I use "what the ships are capable of" it does not follow that they use horrendously incompatible tactics because they are stuck in a rut or something. The Nekos (who seem to run things for the most part) are described as very intelligent. A blatant ignorance of changing times (in actuality, the technology that should have revolutionized combat tactics probably occurred many decades if not centuries ago in the setting, so it is not wholly new) and a commensurate change in tactics is incredibly foolish and I do not believe any military commander would have ignored such things so completely.

As I am fairly sure that no one would desire the kind of combat these speeds and weapons systems lead to (which would very formulaic and anti-theatrical, not to mention the fact that people would be essentially removed from active roles on such a battlefield due to a comparatively lethargic response time), I would strongly urge that they be toned down.
 
How much would you reduce current speeds by, if up to you?
 
Well, if it was up to me?

Um... my concern lies more in the actual travel speed than the combat applications. I'll leave that part to Vesper ~_^

...I'd chop through starship mobility and try making them 25% as fast as they are now. If that's applied to all of them, it shouldn't change the current speed scale for the ships. It'd also mean a Sakura-class gunship would take 8 hours to cross over 10 light year... which I find rather reasonable - it'd take the better part of a day to travel from Yamatai to Kohana... so it wouldn't be all that bad. That's still pretty fast - but that'd also be a large change from established speeds.

* * *

Though that would lower the power SA ships would have compared to their Star Trek analogs (like the Enterprise-E that I mentioned earlier)... so, an alternative to that would be that the speed listed in the ship entries is the maximum speed the ship's CDD can reach. Star Trek vessels don't travel all the time at warp 9 because it takes a lot of power, probably burns through their dilithium crystals faster and put strain on the hull.

Likewise, the Sakura gunship's actual cruising speed might be more in the 150 000c region (the midline), and going faster than that could probably wear out it's propulsion systems and so on from extended use. I could go on, but ship's maintaining 'safe' speeds could be a factor to be considered. It wouldn't be all that hard to add a 'peak efficiency : 55%' line in the performance readouts and perhaps make a mention of how long the top speed can be maintained before the ship must power down for maintenance.

Now that I'm thinking about it, one reason starships might not move at their top speed in combat might be due to the power consumption. A ship that has to move, maintain life support, keep a running power grid for it's internal systems as well as churn out power to charge the main gun, railguns and keep variable weapon pods active around it - not to mention it's energy shielding... a ship might not have the choice but to reduce it's speed in order to effectively use it's arsenal of weapons.

I think the above has the advantage of toning down the ships without actually messing a lot with the SARP's stories.

* * *

Other ideas regarding combat could include use of a ship's CDD to impair another ship's mobility and to force them into sublight combat (sort of like in Star Control II) where their weapons could attain succesful firing solutions because the ship's would move at more manageable speeds (there is already interdiction field tech that does so for hyperspace...)

The 'Crest of the Stars' plane space is also a rather appealing method of warfare while having the CDD bubble and traveling in hyperspace/high speeds... but it's probably to foreign for SARP standards.

* * *

One thing I'd almost totally chop through is the hyperspace fold. I know it's well established... but going at such high speeds is just... cheap. If they would have to exist, I'd put a lot of restrictions on them, such as power usage (fuel consumption?), a good toning down in travel time (from 1 to 5 LY, with 5 being REALLY fast).

Some other things I can think up regarding the use of hypespace would be to make the fold generator so large that they could only fit in the large capital ships (carriers, cruisers, flagship) whom aren't really suited for exploration anyways but have to be dispatched with alacrity. Another factor could be that hyperspace fold jumps have to be calculated from existing sensor data of the arrival point - this would mean that IES system could have a list of coordinates of explored systems with valid jump points they could travel too... but it would void the use of folds for exploring further out of YSE territory too, giving some meaning back to 'deep space exploration' XD.

I could go on, but most of that is just hypothetical stuff that I know can't be readily applied because folds and CDD systems have already been used as they are for some time. Maybe someone else would have additional suggestions or applications?
 
What about wormholes? So far, in the RP, they've been used to instantly transport ships whereever they have coordinates for. Also, there's teleportation (also instant). Side note: the only reason I have hyperspace in the RP is because Derran's guys have it.
 
NovaCorp uses wormholes quite a bit now. We're developing other types of FTL, but that's our preference for the moment.
 
It remains my personnal opinion that the current form of hyperspace doesn't really help social plots like the Sakura, in any case. I vacilate between the adjectives 'hindrance' and 'redundant'. Maybe Derran's people find a use for it, but I've even noticed that you yourself (Wes) don't really pay attention to it anymore if you can skip around it around travel times-or just make it on the fly.

My most recent example would be the Sakura's trip from Hanako's Star to Scorpio base in the Ketsurui nebula. That would have barely taken 2 minutes, yet it took 3+ hours ^_^;
 
Kotori said:
My most recent example would be the Sakura's trip from Hanako's Star to Scorpio base in the Ketsurui nebula. That would have barely taken 2 minutes, yet it took 3+ hours ^_^;
Click to expand...
Actually, that's because the Sakura needed to defold and reduce speed to enter the nebula. The actual transit time across open space was very short.
 
Err, okay. So no hyperspace in all nebulas, eh? So the CDD system has the advantage of being able to move through terrain like that...
 
Down the hyperspace spiral ... that issue's played out already IC, neh? So there doesn't seem much to speak of there.

But I noted the career awards switched over at just about one OOC year, so that makes some sense ... but if there is no rule, it's cool.

Lemme see, though ... Kotori's point about character "creations" makes some sense. However, we develop characters even with only a few minutes time, neh? The power of using lots of words and lots of actions in little amounts of time. As for creations, it takes only a sentence or three to explain how Miles comes up with an NH-S in a short amount of time.

I guess then, if the plot GMs have a lot of lee-way, it's up to them.

What fun ... *grins*
 
[Sorry it took so long to respond, I was house-sitting for someone and I only had access to a computer at the university.]

I don't have all that much time right now to expand (I have another class in 40 minutes) on the following, so that will have to wait till I get home.

Firstly: Stop making new FTL methods!!! FTL in general is a horrible raping of science and reality, why must there be more of it (you may think wormholes and Alcubierre drives are realistic, I can assure you that just ain't so)? Almost every sci-fi series settles on one or two (rarely; 3) methods. Having all these different systems also takes up allot of space and mass aboard a starship, just pick one a stick with it.

Now, onto the existing drives. [Note: I am not going to go into actual numbers for velocities here, as I do not have the time to do adequate calcs. and research to figure out what would be good speeds. That will have to wait until tonight or tomorrow]

I would suggest one of two systems for FTL atm, the second one being much more inline with what is already in use.

=The first would be for a big reduction in speed and/or endurance ( the Enterprise can only maintain its top speed for a short period of time before running out of fuel or doing damage to its superstructure) with the main drive systems (such as the CCD). This could be a issue with stresses, since very large spatial warpages might create such a large effect that the ship at the center would be affected by the edge of the field. The second would be to, like Kotori suggested, make the jump drives only mountable on the larger capital ships.

Unfortunately, the reasons for much of this that exist in most other settings do not exist here. In the SARP resources are apparently meaningless things (do to the femtotech business) as are power requirements (due to a generous interpretation and utilization of ZPE, aka Aether). This makes this sort of balancing a good deal harder, since the two prime motivators for such a consolidation do not exist (cost and power). [This is why I was against ZPE/F as a power source OR a weapon on my previous board; it has no limits and people can just slap hideously large numbers on things and say it is ok] regardless, I think such a consolidation would be good.


=The other general idea would be to use fixed points in space (wormholes, jump points, whatever floats you boat) as the true FTL methods and movement otherwise would require sublight (probably still near-c) travel [similar to B5 and Crest/Banner of the stars]. This makes exploration truly exciting again, since travel to totally unexplored system could take years. If this is unacceptable, there might already be a sparsely established network of jump points/ wormholes set up by a race that inhabited the region of space a long time ago (a ever popular explanation with the type of FTL, such as in B5). Another possibility would be to incorporate a slow FTL method along with the jump points, this would speed non-jump travel considerably, while still maintaining the jump points as the hugely faster method. Unfortunately this method would have a large impact with the already established system.

Now some general stuff. When I get to making numbers they are probably going to appear rather slow, but keep in mind that all things are relative.
-SW hyperdrive is used in a setting where much of a whole galaxy is inhabited and nation's territorial holdings encompass millions of inhabited systems.
-ST warp is used in a setting where travel between worlds thousands of lightyears apart is common (which can take days). The more expansive nations such as the Borg use drives hugely faster than the federation and fixed jump points with speeds on the scale of SW hyperdrive, but these nations span across vast swaths of the galaxy.

I am sure I can find other examples, but I hope you see the point here. The SARP only measures 80-90 lightyears across (~1700 cubic light years), a drive in which one can traverse several light years a minute is out of place here.

One last thing before I have to leave for class. Slower drives open up the possibility for meaningful progress with them. When travel at speeds of several Ly/minute is not uncommon, it doesn't really matter if you develop a drive that can go 20% faster. You are already going so damn fast that that little boost doesn't matter over the scope of the SARP. However, if you only travel, lets say, 2000 times c (~1 Ly/4.5 hours) increases will have a noticeable effect (keep in mind, though, improvements would not be likely to occur in the double digit percentages. A few percentage points faster than the competition would be a big deal for freight companies and the like when they where looking to buy new ships).
 
Kotori said:
The Sakura Gunships can move at 300 000c with their CDD, which allows them to cross over 10 light years in something like 2 hours.
Click to expand...
17.5 minutes, actually...

Allowing wormholes and jump points acknowledges that there is a hyperspace that can be traversed. The way I see it, there are four progressive steps for hyperspace travel:

Wormholes: Naturally existing tunnels through hyperspace.

Gates/Jump points: Manmade wormholes.

Hyperdrives: Devices on a ship capable of tunnelling through hyperspace from anywhere.

Hyper-warp drives: Somewhat like ST's warp drives, however it distorts hyperspace rather than spacetime, effectively squeezing hyperspace so the two points that would be connected by a tunnel are next to each other.

Cowboy Bebop's hyperspace gates are used in a setting where travel is pretty much only between Earth, Mars, and Jupiter. Relatively speaking, I think hyperdrives are fine to use for a small galaxy.

Vesper said:
The SARP only measures 80-90 lightyears across (~1700 cubic light years)
Click to expand...
it's actually ~17,000 cubic light years (assuming the same diameter:depth ratio of the Milky Way)


Anyway, the way I see it SA ships should have hyperdrives. However, I would agree that they should be slower than using wormholes/gates (since it's faster to go through a tunnel that already exists than to dig one yourself). Limiting travel only to the gates, however, is rather absurd for a galaxy this size as they would generally only connect from point A to point B, and I don't really imagine having a couple dozen gates around every planet. True, we could build one multigate at each planet, but it would still only allow you to travel to one place at a given moment (IE, Ship A can't set Yamatai's gate to go to Nepleslia if Ship B is using to to go somewhere else, or to go to Yamatai from somewhere else. If Ship B is going to Yamatai from Nepleslia, Ship A would either be able to enter and just have to be careful not to crash, or would not be able to enter), and it would be about the same speed as having a hyperdrive as it would have to retunnel each time new coordinates are entered.
 
A global reduction in all ships' CDD speeds is fairly easy and I'd be willing to do that. Gates are fine, too. As for wormholes and hyperspace, what do we do with them?

Also, is there anyone AGAINST slowing travel in the SARP? If so, let me know. Right now it seems like everyone wants to, but I want to be sure.
 
It all depends on what method of hyperdrive you mean. SW hyperdrive has nothing to do with theoretical dimensions. It is described as the normal state of any object traveling at superluminal speeds (within normal space-time). Also with all forms of "jump pointsâ€
 
Personally, I just want travel times for plotships of the non-capital variety to be lengthened as a result. The best solution to the problem I see is this :

FTL CDD-type speed :
Reduce speed of starships, probably on scale to keep the faster ships fast. Don't overly reduce the speed of small crafts since they're rather slow and ineffective already in space engagements. Speed up any hyperspace-propelled torpedoes : I think they should be everybit as fast as the ships they are supposed to hit, if not more.

Hyperspace Fold system :
Hyperspace fold is needed for defense matter in order to be able to match up with other races. This, I understand. However, I would suggest the following limitation :

- Install it on the larger cruiser/battleship capital vessels only. Instant arrival from one point to another isn't a big deal for those plotships since they tend to stay long times stationary at some place or another (like the Akuro). Hyperspace fold systems could simply be large enough so that it would be cumbersome to install smaller ship and such alterations could easily take place in the YE 29 or 30 ship overhauls. The bigger vessels could probably carry other vessels in their 'hyperspace wake', making fleet movement still possible.

- Have the hyperspace fold usable only for charted systems. Perhaps exact data and study of an area is required before being able to program a jump location, requiring it to have been explored/scanned/examined before making a safe jump - this would still permit the Star Army to effectively defend it's holding from invasion since it's systems are known ~ while letting deep-space exploration vessels actually DO deep space exploration and add new worlds that ships could fold to once the data would have been added to the PANTHEON network.

...

I feel that this would give long-range explorations more meaning if the ship has to actually take the time to get somewhere to chart new system... which would REALLY help the Empire expand it's influence in more ways than just 'we get another system'.

Also, the movment of cargo vessels not being made by hyperspace and just FTL CDD-like movement add a new dimension to the logistics as it holds the possibility of having raiders intercept convoys... you know, like piracy being made actually feasible (with hyperspace on every ship, it's not).

Furthermore, the previous element gives ships assigned with patrol duty a bit more of a tangible role. Defending supply lines when there's a war is just one of the possibilities this could open.
 

This is something the 5th is playing with, as we've got pirates there.

But cargo vessels already move at non-TTD speeds. It's just that no one cares because all players are on a warship that has a TTD -- a scout ship or a gunship, which doesn't require much in the way of cargo. The Celia moves slowly enough that it doesn't seem a concern.
 
 
I don't like it.

We already have a tech precident, and the technology works, although there are some cases where it works, what about the Jilanth shuttle, who is designed solely to be able to travel great distances fast using a Hyper-Spatial Drive.

The tech isn't broken, don't fix it.

Alcurbierre drive is not at all like ST drives. They are both Warp drives but work on completely different principles, check it out on Wikipedia. Alcurbierre is distorting this universe, ST is immersion in Subspace while keeping in ours.

The CDD started slow, and there has been a slow evolution of increased speed. The Hyper-Spatial Fold drive increased in speed dramaticly recently basicly to make the TCDD not neccesary, since you don't need to teleport when you can get there in a few minutes. I think that restricting either of these would be a great loss, inexplicicable IC unless where going to do something like ST did in those terrible episodes "Were damaging subspace we must slow down!"

I don't like the amount of references to other Sci-Fi series that are being drawn up, those are different to this, we can keep these drives, just make sure that the planets in questions are further away.

More later.
 
2000c = 1 ly/4.38 hr. The map is about 90 ly across on average, so it would take 394.2 hours (16.425 days) to cross. At 3000c, it'd be about 11 days. (my original calculation was based on your 1ly/4.5hr estimate)

Meh. There is a heck of allot of space around a Earth-sized planet, I don't see how a few gates (even if they are a few km in length) would get in the way overmuch.
Click to expand...
let's not forget the traffic congestion

The thing with B5 hyperspace was that it was a chaotic, ever-changing dimension (which is why it was used as a power source by the First Ones). It had immense tidal forces that got stronger the "deeperâ€
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