"Divine Comedy" State-Issue Ayame

~tags this submission for Wes and the other Tech Forum Staff review~

Sadly the tone that Jess has set here is anything but pleasant; because of that I fail to see the point of exchanging any kind of critique constructive or otherwise with her at this time.

Yangfan asked a simple question:

Yangfan said:

What I want to know is, can this thing take on an Ayame-class in a firefight? What about an Ayame-class minus its Legacy Cannon? :?:

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Somehow I don't think this was the answer he was looking for. He was curious to know how it would preform against a Ayame in a firefight etc, not hear about how the Ayame is overpowered and whatever other retoric and pomp and circumstance that has been thrown in here.

My taste for this has been soured. So I leave it to my colleagues.

In all rights I should throw it out, just for the negative tone it has dragged in. And adding (if you'll excuse the bashing) before you bash something, doesn't turn it into a delightful lollipop-it is still a bash, and still not what was inquired of you.

So to be fair, In the case of this submission I am excusing myself, since with the preceding conditions set-I cannot be objective in it.

Strangelove said:

I think the original Ayame wins due to it's (if you'll excuse the bashing) gross overpoweredness in my view. The Drones are (DR 7 x 720) if I've read correctly, which equals 5040 damage points per combined barrage...

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Actually, unless the DR system has been changed since the last time I read up on it (and I've spent very little time using it), I believe 10x of a weapon will only bump it up 1 DR rating.

In order words, a weapons system with 7 DR x 720 is the equivalent of 8 DR x 72 (assuming you can get in the right position to aim 10 guns at one target). Multiplication does not make sense here.

Wes or Fred can correct me if I got this wrong.

two DR 7 weapons still have a potential of 14 DR as opposed to one DR 8 weapon which only has a potential 8 DR worth of damage output. Likewise 10 DR 7 weapons have a potential of 70DR as opposed to the equivalent of 8 with a DR 8 weapon even though both are technically 'the same'.

x10 weapon grouping vastly reduces damage potential but increases penetration.

Uso said:

two DR 7 weapons still have a potential of 14 DR as opposed to one DR 8 weapon which only has a potential 8 DR worth of damage output. Likewise 10 DR 7 weapons have a potential of 70DR as opposed to the equivalent of 8 with a DR 8 weapon even though both are technically 'the same'.

x10 weapon grouping vastly reduces damage potential but increases penetration.

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That is incorrect. Yangfan has it right -- it takes 10 DR7-grade weapons, firing and striking all at once, to equal the power of one DR8-grade weapon. That means a DR7-grade weapon would have to fire 10 times at a DR8-grade shield to destroy the shield (the first time). That considers the shield does not recharge faster than the weapon can shoot.

The problem is counting beyond 10 -- as has been stated before, the DR scale ends at 10. You can't go beyond it. So saying something can do 80,000 DR points per second or something isn't correctly stating damage via the scale. Instead, it should be said that, with 100 DR4-grade weapons, firing once per second, could destroy a DR6-grade shield in one volley. It could not, however, damage a DR9-grade shield at all.

This is an inherent "flaw" of the system: it was created and based on using the Sakura, not the older, far more massive vessels that bristled from every nook and cranny with weapons. It is a system that purposely discourages having so many blasted guns because the math gets retarded.

It's a good reason why Yamatai is trying to get rid of the older vessels, or at least strip them of having so many damn guns -- they make the DR scale a pain in the ass.

Actually, I am correct Doshii.

Ten DR 7 weapons can still cause a total of 70 points of damage opposed to the DR 8 weapon's 8 points of damage over the same amount of time. The only difference is that DR weapons can't effect DR 8 armor. Assuming that you are shooting against something that isn't impervious to your shots DR 7 weapons will destroy your target much faster with their considerably higher DPS (or DPR? or just Damage per generictimeunit).

Now that you've explained yourself more fully and incorporated armor into your post, I see that yes, you are correct -- in a sense.

What I would argue is not to count points like that, however, as it can get confusing. Your argument works only if the armor or shielding is rated at the same level as the weapons, or below. If it's one level above or more, it's possible that a higher-grade weapon would be more cost effective, or more effective in general.

I reiterate that Strangelove's method of counting up all those points is also misleading.

The "10 times xDR = (x + 1)DR" is used in relation to shields, and is not because of the power output of the weapons as much as how the shield functions. When it comes to shields, ten weapons of one level dish out the same effects ON SHIELDING as the next level, up to three additional levels/1000 seperate attacks.

This does not work the same on a ship's hull

So you're both partially correct.

Of course, I discourage intentionally doing this to one spot on a shield, as the purpose of lots of tinier weapons is to cause lesser, though more spread out, damage. If you want to have the effect of a DR 8 weapon, submit a DR 8 weapon unless you have a specific reason for having multiple units...such as Uso's, which is a valid reason--to cause more spread out damage against unshielded targets.

This is why I am critical of submissions with 10 or more of the same weapons functioning at the same time being able to fire on the same weapon arcs.



Edit, Review:

First, the escape pods. There is no mention of them generating the radiation your organic people need to survive. Unless you add that, their use as life pods may be a moot point after a certain amount of time. Also, wouldn't that 10% chance of detonation attract whoever blew up your ship in the first place to finish the job?

The Nucleosynthetic Breeder Reactor Assembly is confusing to me. Can you explain a bit more about how it works in closer-to-layman's terms? (Dumb it down for me)

Do Nepleslian sensor packages even have Aetheric sensors at this time? My search didn't turn up any approved Nep ships with it, and if not, the Neps can't exactly give them to you. Find an approved Nep/NAM ship with them and I will reconsider.

On the Difference Engine... "It works because it does" isn't good enough for me. I need some description beyond this.

Adjust your STL and FTL speeds to conform to this:
https://wiki.stararmy.com/doku.php?id=st ... d_standard

And I expect your race to be at the low end of the FTL and fold spectrum, middle at most since they're reverse engineering things. Up until this, I believe your race has been against FTL propulsion or other sciences manipulating space, and has not had time to gain a lot of experience.

I do not think your ship has its Aether generators still, so I would like to know how you're generating the energy levels needed for the EDD.

A nuclear weapon's DR rating is 5. Given the massive size of your "Pseudonova" Missile Batteries as being several Gigatons, I MIGHT be willing to give a max DR of 6, but no more.

Also, I want to see a reduction in the manufacturing number. You should not be making a multi-gigaton nuke from nothing every 15 seconds without proper justification. I would be willing to allow the faster manufacture time in relation to a much lower yield, however.

Please reduce the missile range. There are VERY few weapons with a 20 AU range, and even 10 is pushing it. Also, the AU range would quickly shrink as your missile performed those high level evasion maneuvers because, logically, it is using up more fuel.

The Last Laugh is highly questionable, simply because of the fact it has full coverage, can be fired indefinitely, and has a DR 8 rating. Such a secondary weapon is excessive. You can either make it a fixed weapon, or you can lower the DR to 4-5 for each pylon.

Your main weapon I find somewhat acceptable, though it is at the high end of the power spectrum. If the shells are so unstable and will detonate after a set amount of time in existence though, why do you have 4 in storage?

I don't see the Drone Fighter Wiki Submission, so you will need to make a seperate submission for this unit (or link me to its wiki if already approved) or just replace them with the other already approved type.


While I think this is innovative and shows that the Freespacers are skillful salvagers and innovative problem solvers, some aspects are unrealistic or excessive. Please address these issues.

Please also make sure the submission complies with the Starship Speed Standard.

Escape pods: The reason they self-destruct is to make them riskier to use in the first place; they're not supposed to work well. But, generally if a ship is being hit with enough firepower to terminally wound it, an escape pod detonation would basically be a drop in a bucket. If they have sensors enough to recognize them through the shower of destruction then they're likely high precision sensors to detect lifepods regardless of detonations.

Fusion reactors that simulate, to a very limited degree, the inside of a stellar mass facilitate nucleosynthetic transmutation. Modern breeder reactors convert "fertile" materials into true fissile fuel using a similar principal, but vastly slower.

The C1 and Hray both use quantum-esque sensors technology. The C1 specifically mentions aetheric sensors (which the sensor package is directly based on, as I wanted to avoid NDI technologies).

The original idea was a slight variation on the pre-approved gravitic Inertialess Drive technology used on the Phantasm. However, I decided to totally rework it; there's no point in having quantum manipulation (i.e., hyperspace-related technologies) if you don't fully utilize it, I say.

Inadvertently left in the relatively extreme values from the old Ayame, in spite of removing the Ayame's propulsion system from the works. Speeds changed. I must retort with the fact that Nepleslia has been spoon-feeding technologies to the Free State, not merely giving it to them. As I may have mentioned before, I've heard it said that thanks to PANTHEON almost anyone in Yamatai can create a full-fledged battleship schematic in a matter of minutes due to the sheer immensity of the computer system. This is only reinforced by the fact there are more breakthroughs developed by generic starship crewmen than actual inventors. Should the 'Spacers not do this with a similarily high-end computer network, with thousands of SI and staff over several weeks, and even then only managing a limited number of technology branches?

Added power capacity information to the transmutation assembly, and re-named it. Also added supplemental aether generators (which I was told is a civilian technology), in addition to MHD dynamos to generate power from excess energy.

Decreased missile DR to 7. To this end I must make three counter-points: Firstly these are STL missiles, so would have a hugely lower hit-ratio than everyone else's +1000c velocity hyperspacing missiles. Even with fighter-like agility, I'm fairly certain anti-fighter and PA combined arms could take out the majority if not all of them -- hence the need for higher damage, high combined barrage numbers. Secondly, don't forget to factor in these aren't simple fission devices but boosted multistaged ones (boosting technology creates far higher yields for relatively little mass addition, and is commonly used in modern missiles), as well as these missile are still cruise missiles. Very large, freight-train sized targets; even if they're fast, that doesn't change the fact they're still as big as the broad-side of a barn and could therefore be easier to shoot down than a "real" fighter. Finally, I must argue that (nuclear = DR 5) is extremely vague, as nuclear ordnance can come in anything from shoulder-mounted launchers to theoretically planet-smashing six-staged boosted warheads. If lasers can range from DR 4-8, why can't other weapon classes as well? Assuming the design justifies it, of course.

Added a ballistic-missile function, so as to use momentum to travel long distances in a similar regard as modern interstellar space probes do (which have reached distances many times greater than 20 AU).

It actually wasn't designed as a "secondary" weapon per se; just another weapon. Due to the relatively high probability of missile interception in a typical combat situation, I believed at least one major weapon had to be energy-based (I actually intended that the drones/fighters be the primary anti-fighter weapons, not the array. As the description notes it's key intended role is subsystem destruction). And to a degree it is a fixed weapon; the weapons assembly takes up the entire docking ring, the only moving parts are being the prism/mirror arrays at the top of the pylon. Or did you mean that I have to make it a fixed weapon for OOC power reasons rather than engineering issues with the design?

It specifically says, "storage for four rounds" as opposed to "four rounds in storage". It merely has the holding capacity for up to four rounds at once.

Actually, the drone fighters are mimics of the original Ayame pods. Unfortunately they sheer number of them (720), combined with their high damage weapons (scalar beams), made me feel that this systems contained potentially far too much power as far as the DR system goes. ICly to justify a de-scaling by saying 'Spacer drones have to be actually engineered as opposed to fabricated, so are much bulkier (90), as well as downtowning their perceived DR value. I wasn't aware these needed a completely separate submission; the original weapon pods had a description totally only a single paragraph, and very little insight on their appearance, performance, or speed/armor/other capabilities.

Also: Added significant fleshing out to electronics systems (firing computer, navigation systems), and create a rather interesting quantum wave-function generator concept I decided to throw in. See the electronics section of the writeup for more details on it.

"The four pylons each have a 360 degree firing arc with overlapping fields of fire, which when combined with the sloping hull, ensures that enemy craft will have very few blind spots to exploit."

Having 360 degree coverage with a DR of 8 is difficult, and frowned upon for such an early foray into warship design, regardless of what technologies have been handed to them on a silver platter. A "fixed" weapon in the setting has a predetermined firing arc, generally less than 45 degrees, usually 30 or less. I can accept a DR 6 with such coverage, but not a DR 8, especially at 5 AU.

I am not willing to negotiate any further on the Nuke. It's 4-6 or no dice, I'm afraid. I've already given you the extra point.

We've discussed that we must not only try to make things relatively feasible in science with these submissions, but stay within the bounds of that which has been set in the DR system.

As I've told you before:

Without a seperate submission for exactly why this nuke should be superior to all other nukes in the setting, and getting it approved, I refuse to grant you a DR capability above 6 for this weapon. This is not negotiable beyond the added DR point I already gave you.


Is there any justification for Aetheric sensors other than "The C1 and Hray have it"?


(more later, I gtg for the night)

To be fair, traditionally most ships lay out their turrets for maximum coverage; you don't bother with the high-maintenance that comes with moving parts if the firing arc is going to be poor. The only reason this weapon has such a high firing arc is because the pylons protrude so far from the hull (this can "see" a much greater surface area of the ship). Anyone who sticks their turrets on elevated pillars (or uses weapon pods) could do the same! The fact that one only has to move a reflective prism tip as opposed to the entire weapons systems means they can, from an engineering stand point, track and aim far faster than traditional turrets; a crystal can usually turn faster because it has less mass than a turret with cannon barrels, ammunition reserves, autoloader mechanisms, etc. Also, the fact that light as nil inertia also means more precise movement mechanisms can be used. That's fundamental physics and engineering, not a matter of technology...unless you count high-temperature transparent materials.

I must express that I disagree with the concept that the lasers should power capacity solely because they are placed on a better shooting position with a better firing arc (away from the hull) than standard turrets, or because they can hit moving targets better (as most energy-based lightspeed weapons can). Even disregarding the practical engineering; since this is an assault ship as opposed to a support one, I purposely downgraded the fighter complement manyfold and removed to the docking ring to better balance out its larger direct-weapon assortment.

I have now stated my case in defense of my decision. However, if you insist -- well, you're the admin so I don't really have a choice but to concede. Just state that this point is non-negotiable if my case is insufficient to sway you, and I'll change it.

Range: Decreased the beam range to...450,000 KM? I know beam ranges are effectively unlimited save for beam decoherencey caused directly by particles and ambient energy, so I was uncertain as to where to set the "acceptable" range is. I only chose 5 AU in the first place since it was easier to write than an long string of digits in meters. ^^;

Sensors: The original Ayame template has aetheric sensors, a good majority of Nepleslian vessels have aetheric sensors...or pseudo-aetheric; subspace, quantum, whatever you want to call it. But, I'll re-name it if need be. I didn't think it would be an important point since all quantum/subspace-esque sensor types effectively operate and detect the same things, from what I've read in roleplay; no one really differentiates between them in practice other than their names. Is 'quantum' okay? 'Subspace'?

The effective range of a laser (1c) is pretty much 1 lightsecond anyways (that's roughly 300 000km crossed in 1 second, I think) if you're shooting at a moving target, and then, that's a very generous allowance as if ships happen to be moving in the 0.75+c range because unless you have very nifty prediction software, the ship which is moving at nearly the speed of light has plenty of space to dodge with a quick jerk of the pilot.

I guess one of the bigger benefits of the speed reduction - at least as far as sublight go, is that it reaffirms the usage and effectiveness of several weapon types: the beam-based/projected weapons, and STL missile/torpedo/solid projectile railguns. It's rather obvious the concept of FTL torpedoes defeated the very archetype of the missile weapon in the SARP (a precise, guided weapon with a very big punch which could be shot down by point defense systems) - in fact, the FTL torpedo was the king of the battlefield, enough for me to pretty much tailor-make a Mishhuvurthyar ship I knew would have a big edge just because it poked holes in some of the SARP's biggest weaknesses.

It also removes the ridiculously funny instances of ships charging a target and firing their beam weapons at the same time: the ships going at .8 or .9c happen to narrowly be preceding their beam attacks... while a ship actually could fly away from an attacker at very high STL speeds and have plenty of delay to avoid the attack of a pursuing ship just thanks to the speed difference.

So, ah, yeah, 450 000km is an okay effective range. It's probably farther if you aim to fire on an immobile target, though.

Given that your weapons fire over a large half-hemispherical area rather than actually aiming each pylon, I believe this would have used an obscene amount of energy at DR 8, especially to output a sphere 5 AU in radius, or even 5 AU in diameter if that was your intent.

The 450,000 KM limit, however, makes this far more acceptable. I can approve the DR 8, 360 degree weapon in such a capacity...after all, many long range lasers with fixed targets can have a 450,000 KM volume when calculating their output and their beam diameter. Please specify, however, if you mean 450,000 KM in radius, or in diameter. (Is it firing 450,000 from the weapon to all points, or is the attack 450,000 KM wide in total?)

I recommend changing the name of the sensors to quantum or subspace, if only to imply they can also pick up natural fluctuations. Indicate in their description that they can also detect aetheric systems, in addition to other such energies, perhaps. I question the worth of purely aetheric sensors which have no other function.

Your hyperspace speed still says 5 Light Years a minute, even though yourStatistics and Performance complies with the Speed Standard. Overlooked?

Your shield desc also makes reference to the ISFC, and I am still looking for the shielding DR rating. Can you indicate where in the submission it is, if I have overlooked it, or add it if it simply isn't there?

Aetheric sensors are only on the upgraded Ayame models, as are the latest shield systems...so I have a problem with this variant using them. The shields are generated by the hull plating anyway, which has been replaced.

Besides, I'm not going to approve submissions which big chunks of copy-pasta in them.

Sorry.

Your hyperspace speed still says 5 Light Years a minute, even though your Statistics and Performance complies with the Speed Standard. Overlooked?

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Maybe you loaded the page while it was being edited...to me it says 0.5 LY/min, not 5.

As for the shield: the original Ayame's writeup had no DR value that I could see, so I was uncertain to its strength.

Wes said:

Aetheric sensors are only on the upgraded Ayame models, as are the latest shield systems...so I have a problem with this variant using them. The shields are generated by the hull plating anyway, which has been replaced.

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Oh, I saw zero mention of that in the writeup (unless I missed something)...it just says, "relying on an egg-shaped combined spatial and electrogravitational distortion field network to warp space around it". Since the hull is "Zesuaium coated titanium boron carbide", I thought the shield had to come from electronic system rather than the hull itself; the Zesuaium would hypothetically jam shielding energy rather than project them because it acts as an energy deadzone, unless I am mistaken. I don't think titanium boron carbide has any yottawat shield-projection capabilities, either. Hence I deducted that the shield emission systems must be merely electrical emitters rather than the hull itself.

Perhaps someone should add to the Ayame article that the shielding comes from passive <insertmetalname> emissions in the hull-plating rather than active electrical systems, as that could significantly impact roleplay. It would also help clarify if or if not the shield systems from the original Ayame can be mimicked by the Divine Comedy.

Besides, I'm not going to approve submissions which big chunks of copy-pasta in them.

Sorry.

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I've already replaced...well...everything but the shielding systems, and a few minor details; the passageway, recreation room, lift the only other things I see that have been unchanged. At this point it can't even be considered a "State-Issue Ayame" so much as a "a totally different ship that just has a similar layout as the Ayame". However, I'll get around to rewriting those...thankfully it shouldn't be that hard to re-write single paragraphs that say "these passages connect sections" and "these lifts move freight."

However, why is even this minute level unacceptable to you? Any large scale overhaul will of course contain at least one piece of the original, otherwise it wouldn't be a modification but a totally separate design. By this logic almost any major overhaul (as, anything more than merely swapping turrets or sticking more equipment inside) could be moot due to "big chunks of copy-pasta".

***

Also, before labeling this as having "big chunks of copy-pasta", please see this.

I think you miss the point of the standard ship compartments page (despite its purposed being written on the top of the page itself, even) -- it's there so people can use links instead of having each ship describe the same layouts.

What I'm saying is, duplicated systems entries should link to the original rather than copy/paste it so the site doesn't have tons of duplicated content on it.

So, it would be preferable if I replace the passageways paragraph with "See [[ayame-class_cruiser#passageways]]", lifts with "See [[ayame-class_cruiser#hull_integrated_systems]]", recreation room information (which is only a single sentence, by the way) with "See [[ayame-class_cruiser#recreation_deck]]", and shielding with "[[ayame-class_cruiser#shield_systems]]"? Or should I do it the other way and put it under an Ayame modification page, writing all the few douzen changes I made, then just leaving the similar stuff blank as to assume they're visit the original page to see information?

I'll do it if you think it seems more acceptable. I just think copy-pasting links on many pages that direct to the exact same paragraph isn't a whole lot different than actually copy-pasting the paragraph on many pages in itself. One makes the ship article slightly shorter, but may require a person to juggle multiple windows at once (or jump back and forth between pages). Hence it doesn't seem like copy-pasting linking is significantly better than realcopy-pasting. Anyways, I'd better cease being tangential and get back to the matter at hand.

Having a single page to be shared between twenty ships can make it inconvenient if you're the sort of designer who wants to add little minor touches and details to a prefabricated section to give a room a different feel, as I did with most of the rooms. For example, how in some sections I added a touch of aesthetic degradation; open panels, stray cables running across the floors, replacing gravimetric windows with keyboard-style interfaces so as to give it a more rugged feel instead of the "sterilized and professional military vessel" aura. Even if the layout and equipment in a room is exactly the same, the minor touches and rewording can create a totally different atmosphere. Is the above okay, or no? I'm not sure if "modified" copying counts as copy-pasting, or if you want me to choose between a 100% different layout vs direct link copy-pasting.

Rewrote everything from the old Ayame (as far as I can tell), save the shielding, so hopefully that will be acceptable by Wes copy-pasta standards. (If not, let me know). Any other outstanding issues?

Could you talk a little more about the p-based weapon? Does it essentially fire a laser beam? Also, how does the crystal accept energy input from multiple angles? Since any crystal is essentially a structure composed of a bunch of reflecting surfaces, I believe that you can't just freely rotate the crystal and expect it to "just work". Rotate it to the wrong angle and you'd end up redirecting the laser back into the weapon itself.

I just assumed that the creators of that weapon already accounted for that. Computer-directed weaponry and that sort of thing.