Rejected Submission [DRv3] Missile Rules Addendum

[FrostJaeger]

• Submission Type: DRv3 Rules Addition
• Submission URL: Linky
  
• Faction: N/A
• FM Approved Yet: I honestly have no idea what to put here.
• Faction requires art: N/A
  
• Contains unapproved sub-articles? Nope.
• Contains new art? Nope.
• Previously submitted? Nope.
  
  So, I was going to write a massive rebuttal post to everything @Zack has been saying in his missile thread - but then it occurred to me:
  
  Why not simply make my own?
  
  Anyhoo, here's the result - and I apologize for the poor formatting; I'm really, really tired at the moment due to it being 1:25 AM at the time of writing this.

 

[Ametheliana]

This needs @Wes to say something about it, first and foremost.

 

[Fred]

Thank you for using the quick reference links.

My problem with this is ideological: technological levels have rarely ever worked right in SARP. Everything that initially consents have their FMs display behavior that makes the faction try to bridge the gap as swiftly as possible. It often made me feel that having defined tech levels in SARP was a bunch of hogwash (no offense meant).

My own preferences makes Yamatai's hardware sit closest to the Advanced column. I have a hard time believing that the Z-1 torpedoes (heavy anti-ship) - very close to Star Trek photon torpedo casings - are tougher than Light Mecha (small shuttlepod like a T4 Fox Shuttle). I'd honestly see it more as heavy armor, but that's not how your table rolls.

 

[FrostJaeger]

Thank you for using the quick reference links.

My problem with this is ideological: technological levels have rarely ever worked right in SARP. Everything that initially consents have their FMs display behavior that makes the faction try to bridge the gap as swiftly as possible. It often made me feel that having defined tech levels in SARP was a bunch of hogwash (no offense meant).

My own preferences makes Yamatai's hardware sit closest to the Advanced column. I have a hard time believing that the Z-1 torpedoes (heavy anti-ship) - very close to Star Trek photon torpedo casings - are tougher than Light Mecha (small shuttlepod like a T4 Fox Shuttle). I'd honestly see it more as heavy armor, but that's not how your table rolls.

@Fred Not to be rude, but what size would you classify them, then? Tier 4-5? In all honesty, I was half-awake and making random guesstimates when I created this earlier this morning - having even a single "confirmed" value would make balancing the table vastly easier.

(I'm also still half-asleep as a type this...)

 

[Fred]

I'd honestly see it more as heavy armor, but that's not how your table rolls.

As I said

A Tier 12 (heavy anti-starship) torpedo might fit nicely in the Tier 6 niche. It seems about as big as an Hostile might be.

 

[FrostJaeger]

As I said

A Tier 12 (heavy anti-starship) torpedo might fit nicely in the Tier 6 niche. It seems about as big as an Hostile might be.

Oh.

*facepalms*

...yep, I'm definitely still half-asleep. Give me a minute, and I'll recalculate the table.

 

[Fred]

This said, I don't think Light Mecha is bad. but I do think it's reasonable to expect a Plumeria's anti-armor guns to mow down incoming torpedoes.

Wait, this stuff is probably unarmored, right? So, it'd be Tier 7-1 anyways even if it was on the Light Mecha tier. x_x

I guess I'm tired too. ^_^;

 

[Fred]

Well, then it might count as armored? And shielded?

FFS, I didn't even think this kind of stuff needed rules.

 

[Arieg]

I... think you need to revisit or remove the atmospheric speeds, the big thing being that surface to space anti-ship missiles are a thing and minimum escape velocity for that is mach 33.

 

[Zack]

This seems to be similar to my suggestion just with some different numbers and no way to tell what size a missile should be.

This also doesn't seem to address the problem of how missiles are treated in DvR 3

I would expect Doshii to be in here raising the same complaints.

 

[FrostJaeger]

Well, then it might count as armored? And shielded?

FFS, I didn't even think this kind of stuff needed rules.

With that in mind, @Fred, I've revised the absolute minimum to be Tier 1 (Light Personnel) in order to avoid any confusion regarding this.

I... think you need to revisit or remove the atmospheric speeds, the big thing being that surface to space anti-ship missiles are a thing and minimum escape velocity for that is mach 33.

Though @Fred or another one of the veterans would have to confirm this for me, hasn't it always been standard practice for vehicles/power armor/missiles/starships/et cetera to use their slower-then-light drives to achieve escape velocity? I mean, how else would a Kuma Multi-Role Shuttle go from ground to orbit, given that its atmospheric engines are "only" capable of achieving a little under Mach 18?

This seems to be similar to my suggestion just with some different numbers and no way to tell what size a missile should be.

Please refrain from replying with posts that contribute nothing of value to the thread, @Zack - and doesn't this exact section of the Damage Rating (Version 3)'s page define what general size each tier is?

This also doesn't seem to address the problem of how missiles are treated in DvR 3

Uhm...what? Let's look at the list of problems you raised in your thread...

What size should missiles/torpedoes be?
What speeds are acceptable for missiles/Torpedoes?
What is an acceptable amount of defense for Torpedoes/missiles to have?
How do we deal with sub-munitions?
How many missiles/torpedoes can something carry? (Not ACTUALLY answered here, but the size limitations will make it a bit easier on NTSE staff for obvious reasons.)

...and let's break it down one-by-one, shall we?

Spoiler: The Breakdown

• [...]
  
  What size should missiles/torpedoes be?

  
  Answered by Missile Damage Capacity.
  

• What speeds are acceptable for missiles/Torpedoes?

  
  Answered by Missile Speeds.
  

• What is an acceptable amount of defense for Torpedoes/missiles to have?

  
  Answered by Missile Damage Capacity.
  

• How do we deal with sub-munitions?

  
  Answered by Submunitions.
  

• How many missiles/torpedoes can something carry? (Not ACTUALLY answered here, but the size limitations will make it a bit easier on NTSE staff for obvious reasons.)

  
  Answered by Missile Capacity.

Please, enlighten us all @Zack - how does this submission not address most of (if not all of) the problems with how missiles are currently handled in Damage Rating (Version 3)?

I would expect Doshii to be in here raising the same complaints.

@Doshii Jun...?

 

[Zack]

Are you pegging the size of missiles to the DvR3 ship sizes? That seems to be unclear to me.

Do missiles count against the DvR weapon cap or not? It would be nice to have an answer to this rather than not addressing it. NTSE staff not knowing how to treat missiles is the main thing that this should be fixing.

 

[FrostJaeger]

Are you pegging the size of missiles to the DvR3 ship sizes? That seems to be unclear to me.

Yes, and my apologies for not clarifying that in the article itself - I've added some text (and a link to the size table) that should help clear this up.

Do missiles count against the DvR weapon cap or not? It would be nice to have an answer to this rather than not addressing it.

This remains unchanged from what it was prior to your thread - yes, missiles still count towards the weaponry limitations.

NTSE staff not knowing how to treat missiles is the main thing that this should be fixing.

Contrary to what you may or may not believe, that is what this submission is attempting to fix. Please refrain from attempting to derail the thread, @Zack.

Please, enlighten us all @Zack - how does this submission not address most of (if not all of) the problems with how missiles are currently handled in Damage Rating (Version 3)?

Would you mind providing this explanation, @Zack? I'd really like to know what problems this submission fails to address, so that I may properly address them.

 

[Syaoran]

I don't think there's a need to have the size limits scale to tech levels. Naturally the civilizations with more advanced tech will have smaller missiles by design. And really we shouldn't let missile size be such a big thing. We hardly ever consider ammo storage for any other weapon other than simply "I made room for extra ammo." Since missiles don't have a higher capacity for damage, actually paying attention to size and storage will only result in tech designers using them less because they're more of a hassle than other weapons to deal with.

Any general size restrictions we put will also screw over PAs and vehicles as well. I think we can trust the NTSE mods to judge if a missile is too small or big by simply using common sense. Our NTSE mods aren't dumb, and all of them have a pretty good grasp of the tech available on site. They might not know every little thing but they know enough to see if I missile is vastly different from the norm.

Plus there is one thing many people are overlooking. When it comes to missiles the majority of it in modern day is fuel. The warhead generally isn't actually that big. And SARP is a setting where fuel has been massively condensed. So getting small missiles with high power isn't that weird. Really if anything on a missile should get strict rules for the size it's the flight distance of the missile.

Actually that's a pretty good way to think of it. That would also by default keep star ships from using tiny missiles. Because the distances they fire at each other from would be too great for fuel.

 

[Zack]

Do missiles count against the DR for a ship once for each missile? Or once per launcher?

If it is once per launcher then does a vertical launch system with 40 cells count as 40 launchers or one launcher?

Is there a limit to the amount of missiles you can take regardless of launcher if you're lumping them all in together?

Why did you pick the speeds that you did? How will this affect missile use and how many rounds of shooting can you expect to get defensively? Do any of these missile speeds change how missiles will be used in the setting?

 

[Arieg]

Though @Fred or another one of the veterans would have to confirm this for me, hasn't it always been standard practice for vehicles/power armor/missiles/starships/et cetera to use their slower-then-light drives to achieve escape velocity? I mean, how else would a Kuma Multi-Role Shuttle go from ground to orbit, given that its atmospheric engines are "only" capable of achieving a little under Mach 18?

The point is you've placed an arbitrary speed limit on missiles in atmosphere, which I don't agree with especially considering shield technology removes the issue of them turning into slag at higher speeds. Now I do agree that we should head off speeds that do wonderful things like atmospheric ignition but mach 10 is simply to slow, especially for SARP tech.

 

[Syaoran]

Do missiles count against the DR for a ship once for each missile? Or once per launcher?

If it is once per launcher then does a vertical launch system with 40 cells count as 40 launchers or one launcher?

Is there a limit to the amount of missiles you can take regardless of launcher if you're lumping them all in together?

Why did you pick the speeds that you did? How will this affect missile use and how many rounds of shooting can you expect to get defensively? Do any of these missile speeds change how missiles will be used in the setting?

All these questions are relatively easy to answer if you use your brain and honestly the wrong questions to ask.

They count per 'weapon system' as that's what's getting the power. If you have a 16 missile launcher, then it's the launcher that counts. If you have an individual missile that self launches then that's what counts. But if you're using an individual self launching missile in this setting then it better be something special or intentionally under performing.

Have we ever limited the amount of ammo a weapon can have with DR? No. What would be limited is the salvo size is limited to the device's salvo size(which the NTSE will decide is broken or not) and how much the device can hold at once before a 'reload' is required.

 

[Syaoran]

The point is you've placed an arbitrary speed limit on missiles in atmosphere, which I don't agree with especially considering shield technology removes the issue of them turning into slag at higher speeds. Now I do agree that we should head off speeds that do wonderful things like atmospheric ignition but mach 10 is simply to slow, especially for SARP tech.

You probably shouldn't consider the speed limits as the max speed a missile can hit in that situation, but rather what a missile designed to be used in that situation can do. So a surface to space missile is designed to be surface to space, so of course it's going to have a speed capable of reaching space and then being usable in space.

And a missile meant to be used in space being fired on earth isn't going to magically slow down, you'd have to calibrate it's out put to keep it in speed.

 

[Arieg]

Again, Mach 10 is arbitrary for even surface to surface or anti-tank system, especially in sarp.

 

[Syaoran]

Again, Mach 10 is arbitrary for even surface to surface or anti-tank system, especially in sarp.

All speed limits in setting are arbitrary. We're working with super advanced tech that might not actually be possible at the levels we use it in settings. The fact that there is a -limit- to speed at all a meta-management thing in order to keep the setting form getting out of hand, it's not about realistic limitations.