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Editing post-approval -- FM edition

The guy y'all keep citing as "the FM who gave Zack approval" said this in the thread in question:
Wes said:
Zack I've looked over Frost's edit suggestions and I think they're pretty minor and I suggest that you make those, I don't think they'll harm your submissions to make them.
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Wes never revised that statement and the submission was subsequently approved anyway. So it seems like the admin was saying an FM's requests were reasonable and that the FM could justifiably ask for them to happen.
 
That's right Ame. Ultimately, cases like this should be looked at on an individual basis given how irregular they are, with the SMs arbitrating. And since you brought it up Raz, my thought on the matter was that Frost's request was so minor and irrelevant that it could be ignored, as Zack and his RP would be more inconvenienced by the change than by the main branch of Elysians with the request being ignored. If Wes feels otherwise though, he's free to step in.
 
Ametheliana said:
I'm wondering where this stemmed from. Is there some real pressing issue of this happening?
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I don't think it's a pressing issue. But even among the cliques, I believe in discussion. As to where it stemmed from ...
This.

For starters, I'm defending Zack. Please let that relationship and its history color my speech here. I do not do this for him.

Nor do I do this against Frost or the clique. The situation involves Frost, but it could be any FM.

That situation is thus: by admission, an FM didn't post objections in time to stop a submission. Assuming that FM had authority to stop the submission with an objection, they didn't do so.

The submission otherwise was approved.

The FM wants to have edits made to those submissions, and is using the instance of another, related submission to ask for them. The submitter refuses, saying he already has approval. The FM refuses to approve the submission at hand.

Stalemate.

Frost has complaints that might be justifiable. Zack also is, in a sense, leaning on past submissions to justify the one at hand.

At the same time, those submissions were approved. The NTSE and Wes aren't calling for their revoking back into pending.

Wes DID comment seeking some of the edits, so the rest of that thread doesn't help the discussion. However, it's like Cadette and Raz suggest: who wins out here? Who should win?

We put in FM rights to give some faction managers power, but we did so with acknowledgement that GMs are still plenty powerful.

There's also the unwritten rights of a submitter, i.e. you don't have to fight over past submissions with people when they got approved. Allowing that makes nothing permanent, and that's not good for players trying to use submitted works.

That's ultimately what I was thinking. And again, my tendency is to favor the submitter there. That's not because I'm not a fan of FM rights (thought I'm wary of them).

It's because I don't like the lack of permanency, of surety, in the approval process. When something's approved, it needs to be given the benefit of the doubt that it's good. It shouldn't get edits against the submitter's wishes unless there's a compelling case of actual harm.

Frost's complaints might have amounted to that level. My only goal is that the FM's rights are not considered automatically overriding of the process of the NTSE.
 
Can an FM of a faction un-approve something that was approved before they were an FM?

Obviously not.
 
Zack said:
Can an FM of a faction un-approve something that was approved before they were an FM?

Obviously not.
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I don't think it can be that black-and-white.

That said, if they're going to revise what's come before ... damn. That's just a hard discussion to have. It needs to be had case-by-case, but it's gotta be had somehow.
 
I heard this bit of wisdom from Kim last night:

"It doesn't matter how valid your complaints are, if you have nothing but complaints, then no one will listen to you."

That being said, The FM of a dead faction should not be allowed to supersede a GM who runs a thriving and populous plot. The FM in question offers the site nothing but complaints, reports, and, overly-ambitious plans that will never see fruition. The GM however, runs a new-player friendly plot that is active and flourishing. Thinking from a purely utilitarian standpoint, the GM should have final say in the conflict at hand.
 
It's a balancing act. Since these types of situations are relatively rare and potentially harmful to one party or another, they need to be looked at on a case-by-case basis as Doshii said. This time around, it was relatively clear cut, but we may not be so lucky next time.
 
With all due respect @CadetNewb, this "case" is anything but clear cut. I'll be posting a massive reply soon-ish that explains why.

@xImmortalxBeauty How ironic, then, that you mentioned nothing of the sort while part of an extremely active Discord server.
 
Nothing has been resolved whatsoever Unless I missed something?
 
Doshii Jun said:
And that really falls to the NTSE to ensure. Which sucks; like you folks don't have enough to worry about.

But you're the gatekeepers. It's on your shoulders to a large degree. *Salute.* Good luck.
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This seemed like a resolution to me, John. Doshii is the one to have brought this up in the first place.
 
I would like to hear the official policy on this subject from @Wes. That will resolve everyone's questions I think.
 
I think I need to point out that this thread isn't about your faction or the decision I made Frost, though it is certainly what sparked it. Doshii asked what to do when something is approved, but is later unapproved by the FM. My answer to that, is the same as it has been throughout this thread; case by case arbitration, since these situations are rarely clear cut.
 
Honestly there needs to be a difference in the rights of a faction manager that created the faction and its assets and those granted the position over the years.
 
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Ametheliana said:
This seemed like a resolution to me, John. Doshii is the one to have brought this up in the first place.
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It's a resolution for me at this point, barring other people discussing it and giving me more to think about.

But just me thinking that isn't any reason that you all can't keep talking about it.

In the spirit of where Ame appeared to be going, though — don't worry about the specific situation that caused this. As I said, the particulars of it render it moot.

It's the tug of war between the rights of an FM to manage as needed, and the rights of a submitter (and players) to play uninterrupted.

Where I draw the line isn't the same place as everyone else. Feel free to talk more, but again, do so above the specific situation.

Miring this in cliquebait does no one any good.
 
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