EMP & Electromagnetic systems

[OsakanOne]

Given the SARP's intense love of electromagnetic and electrostatic technologies, an EMP could be remarkably effective if used properly. Given that the ranges of output needed would be better put to use as a weapon, could a shield-stripper be formed from the nuclear electromagnetic pulse of a specially designed warhead and a ballistic computation system which simulates and estimates the optimal blast conditions to create said EMP?

The math says yes, but I want your feedback.

The interference might only last a few seconds: It would be a cross creating an opening for a hook to potentate another strike or attack.

 

[Nashoba]

EMP can be defeated in a variety of ways. Even in our time most Military equipment is hardened to protect them against EMP.

Now could EMP be used to disrupt a force field. It would depend on the type of force field for one. And it would probably be the equivalent of our already in place anti-shield weapons.

KE-Z1 Torpedo - Anti-Shield 5 Damages shields only
Ge-Z1-3a Anti-Shield

 

[Guard Dog]

It's true that today we can protect our hardware from an EMP blast and for the really important things we tend to even go a little farther than perhaps necessary to ensure this is the case. For example on an american super carrier the electromagnetic field projected to shield from any potential EMP is so powerful that soldiers used to have to run a squeegee over the old television screens when the image shifted towards the fields. Ahahahahaha

 

[Nightowl]

That sounds like an urban myth Guard. IIRC, the key defence against an EMP pulse is a Faraday cage and quick reacting surge protectors, not some EM forcefield.

Osakan, HEMP usually caused damage by generating a huge voltage spike, think it was called the Copton? Compton? Effect. The problem with trying to knock out Star Army level of electronics with an EMP is that the voltages their equipment normally deal with are already that high. It would be like trying to drown a fish.

Shields on the other hand are Future tech, it would all depend on the "shield".

You might be better off just dropping a huge ass fusion bomb instead. After all, if you roast him, you won't have to worry about him shooting at you too. Dead men shoot no people.

Fun fact. The reason why EMP is so strong on Earth is because of interactions with the Earth's own field. Beyond that, EMP effects actually dies down.

 

[Guard Dog]

It's not an electromagnetic "forcefield" it's just a normal electromagnetic field and you can't protect all of the expensive equipment that would be stored inside of such an essential vessel if that weren't the case granted there are many pieces of military electronics that retain faraday cages and other such protection. Considering that aircraft carriers with GE generator produce a copious amount of electrical energy I don't understand why it would seem remotely implausible to simply artificially create a normal electromagnetic field powerful enough to counter damaging overload for even normal equipment. As we know about electromagnetic energy you can create EM that attracts or repulses. This is just about the only kind of field for a vessel we have that isn't science fiction truthfully and for good reasons. We only have ten vessels big enough to be named super carrier and they carry a whole lot of hardware destined for the front line of any future conflict regardless of ballistic missile tactics incorporating the ionosphere.

 

[Nightowl]

1) Because they didn't?
2) Because there are things like radars and radios that do not take too well to being around charged objects. (And sailors)

Edit: I did a bit of brushing up on my Compton effect physics, basically it's really back to basics quantum physics (it has been a long time since I brushed that off), where a photon raises an electron to a higher energy state...but not really. This is where the wave/particle property of light does wonky things, the radiation from the EMP hits an object, and bounces an electron out like a billard ball, causing a surge. You can't "deflect" it with an electric or magnetic field any more than having a magnet near your eye can make you go blind or current carrying wires suddenly changing colour (pity or we would have a lot less accidental electrocutions). So basically, charging up your ship won't do anything. My guess is that the static charge came from more mudane sources like radars or radios or simple electrical leakage.

 

[Guard Dog]

I'm going to be entirely honest I don't believe that what you're attempting to convey can possibly explain what I'm talking about and the comparison is a little less than apt truthfully although I'm not saying that other parts of your elaboration aren't true in their own context you do seem to have an understanding of electromagnetism and their relation to things like light but I'm not talking about charging the whole ship up just producing a smaller EM field around it, hardware that controls radio waves might be effected if they're overloaded but radar itself would probably work fine depending on the intensity, and I don't mean do something crazy like electrify the entire hull where people would be walking around that's just insanity so I'm not suggesting shock crew members either. Your example about the magnet is interesting though as in reality it depends on exactly how much energy is put into the EM field how it will effect the human body. You're right in the example that electricity is being displaced but if you really think about it on a large scale is the earths EM field doing anything really that terribly different in regards to charged particles that hit us? It doesn't deflect all of them but some, and that which it doesn't it utilizes to strengthen itself; it isn't terribly unlike a giant bar magnet.

Also if you form stronger electromagnetic fields around peoples heads strange things can actually happen you might be surprised they're doing quite a fair bit of research into how we're effected. For example studies are being done into the fact that you can hold a purely magnetic wand to the side of someones skull and alter their moral inhibitions.

Regardless I'm not going to accept a photoelectric effect as proof you can't simply use a field against a field, your example would remain true if we accepted that the metallic surface was the first thing impacted at full force which I believe could be prevented with a modest sum of energy if it could be wound down, not in any brand of true deflection though. Actually if anything the idea of how it could possibly work is the field coinciding with the energy itself, I'm pretty sure the compton profiles aren't the same depending on polarity.

 

[Nightowl]

Guard, maybe some wiki-ing might help you. Look up NEMP (nuclear EMP), HEMP (mmm... marijuana... er...no, High-altitude EMP), Compton Effect.

And I'll try to remember that it doesn't have an EM field around it next time I get zapped by the car door. It freeking hurts.

"you can hold a purely magnetic wand to the side of someones skull and alter their moral inhibitions."

It's called a "gun".

Guard, when was the last time you ever heard of a normal situation where a magnetic or electric field bends light? Which is what radiation is.

Edit: Damn, I have a bad habit of thinking electrons/beta radiation is short lived in atmosphere, blame my bio background. I did a deeper read up, the electron cloud is formed in the atmosphere, not the cabling itself, then driven at speed into lower atmosphere causing a voltage difference. So it is a very driven electron cloud (0.9C) that overloads systems.

 

[Guard Dog]

Actually magnets bend light in "a" normal situation all the time, the most prevalent of which to a normal person is on the TV screen which is part of the example I was giving above in the first post. There is a magnet inside televisions which deflects charged particles to create images and patterns on the screens. Of course that's only when they're in that state. So without going into quantum electrodynamics that's pretty much the only situation which doesn't contrast your observation.

Lmfao, no need to get sarcastic... Well besides the gun quote anyway. I do understand what radiation is I just wasn't willing to let such a brief elaboration explain away any potential that a changing field might be able to combat an EMP with its own energy which was the topic of our dissonance. But I should have thought about all the other radiation scattered down along side the energy I realize I didn't fully understand what a nuclear produced pulse even was.

If you recall in the beginning of the conversation you know I already thought the concept was over the top even when I figured it was in a carrier, and most of the reason why I was willing to accept it is because existing radar's on smaller craft like destroyers or submarines are obviously dangerous to the crew so it didn't seem 'that' absurd.

Although after reading intently the exact information you told me to read I now agree with you that it simply isn't a remotely practical thing to try in the face of the potential energy that is tossed down at the planet. Granted that I always accepted cages and surge protectors to the be the most feasible defense but the conceptual idea of using the field in this context It's completely useless.

If you did create such a hypothetical field as I described it would take on so much energy in this scenario from that it doesn't matter regardless you might as well just make a big static conductor around your vessel for the pulse It's simply another medium for the energy to go through before it fries everything. Well, everything that isn't protected by other means

So basically you're right It's not a good idea for a NEMP or the more obscure HEMP(which there was surprisingly little information about; anywhere on the internet) but maybe if it was just a raw electromagnetic energy instead of being coupled so intently with other powerful forces.

Annnnd, the last thing I have to say is there actually was two compton profiles for the energy but it wasn't going to matter since the other profile that would be used actually generates even MORE energy apparently which is definitely not what I was looking for

 

[Nightowl]

Well, to be fair, I did all the sciences in Uni till the first year before spec-ing to Bio, Physics was up to Doppler Cooling and Cooling lasers, so I did get a rather focused course in "radiation".

BTW, the TV set magnets bend electrons, not light. Light is not charged. The only things that bend light are medium change (prism, water etc) and gravity.

"So, Professor Heizenburg... Did you know how fast you were going?"
"No, I don't want to know!"
"80 mph!"
"Damn, now I don't know where I am!"

 

[OsakanOne]

EMP can be defeated in a variety of ways. Even in our time most Military equipment is hardened to protect them against EMP.

Now could EMP be used to disrupt a force field. It would depend on the type of force field for one. And it would probably be the equivalent of our already in place anti-shield weapons.

KE-Z1 Torpedo - Anti-Shield 5 Damages shields only
Ge-Z1-3a Anti-Shield

In physical practice, you can't guard against "All EMP"; You either design your platform without vulnerable components (by making it clockwork or analogue like many parts of nuclear weapons) or you use shielding which is effective up to and including a set grade.

Specifically, I'm looking at disrupting fields. Defensive fields, propulsive fields, communications, wireless energy exchange and sensors all being my primary goal rather than say "the main computer" of a given weapon. The idea (almost ironically) is to use specially configured warheads as a means to interfere with more advanced starships and technologies, to render them vulnerable to less advanced but equally potent weapons.

 

[Jimmy]

I've been tempted to develop EMP weapons as a less-lethal civilian population weapon, but it seems everyone in SARP hardens almost all their electronics (even the civilian ones), so the damage wouldn't be catastrophic like you'd hope. No factories stopping, no communication networks destroyed, no power lines spontaneously catching fire...

As for fields and shields. My super-secret, keep-it-stupid-simple, your-eyes-only-destroy-after-reading method would probably be double or triple tandem warheads. Since shields do not stop all damage it seems feasible that you could use the first explosive to pierce the shield, and the second or third to do damage to the hull itself.

Of course, this pretty much breaks the damage system as we know it and will probably get an admin on your case screaming "HAX!", so I'd suggest waiting for someone else to slip one of these weapons through as a precedent. <,<;

 

[Nashoba]

Actually Jimmy I would say that wouldn't. Not if you fired two different missiles or torpedoes a second or two apart.

 

[Nightowl]

Osakan, would a mix of chaff and jammers do the job for sensors and communications?

 

[Mortem]

On the subject of Electromagnetic weapons, what Nashoba said earlier about hardening equipment would work against a traditional EMP. Such a countermeasure in this little separate field of warfare can really only go so far. But from reading this, I got curious as to what would happen if a weapon based on the Triboelectric effect would be effective at all in this situation.

The effectiveness of such a tool would be really restrictive, at least I think so. I haven't read the SARP Wiki enough or perhaps not looked in the right places to know how much a weapon made to basically throw static electricity at a target would be. I think the best one could hope for with my far-fetched idea would be to disrupt communications or ignite unprotected powdered substances/low conductive fluids.

 

[OsakanOne]

I've been tempted to develop EMP weapons as a less-lethal civilian population weapon, but it seems everyone in SARP hardens almost all their electronics (even the civilian ones), so the damage wouldn't be catastrophic like you'd hope. No factories stopping, no communication networks destroyed, no power lines spontaneously catching fire...

As for fields and shields. My super-secret, keep-it-stupid-simple, your-eyes-only-destroy-after-reading method would probably be double or triple tandem warheads. Since shields do not stop all damage it seems feasible that you could use the first explosive to pierce the shield, and the second or third to do damage to the hull itself.

Of course, this pretty much breaks the damage system as we know it and will probably get an admin on your case screaming "HAX!", so I'd suggest waiting for someone else to slip one of these weapons through as a precedent. <,<;

That's kind of the route i'm going with. A system of digitally timed combined arms; an adapted nuclear payload's EMP effector to strip energetics then a followup with parabolically timed "popcorned" hypersonic kinetic penetrator.

If a vessel relies on energetic fields entirely to maintain lift with no vertical lift engines, it'll sink like a stone if it doesn't depart the area of effect. Given that E1-3 EMP hypothetically lasts anything up to an hour, that's incredibly useful.

 

[paladinrpg]

That's kind of the route i'm going with. A system of digitally timed combined arms; an adapted nuclear payload's EMP effector to strip energetics then a followup with parabolically timed "popcorned" hypersonic kinetic penetrator.

If a vessel relies on energetic fields entirely to maintain lift with no vertical lift engines, it'll sink like a stone if it doesn't depart the area of effect. Given that E1-3 EMP hypothetically lasts anything up to an hour, that's incredibly useful.

As a fan of missile technology, I definitely like where this line of thought is going... so it would basically be like a MIRV warhead, with the EMP payloads moving faster than the slower kinetic/explosive payloads which arrive after the hole is created?

 

[OsakanOne]

Not slower; it would have a higher velocity but be fired afterwards and in an arc with the differing arcs, distance travelled and timing making up for the velocity difference. They go up, then come down non-line-of-sight ontop of a target from above. The nuclear EMP only needs a proximity detonation and then the other missile can guide and smash through the shield-stripped vessel.

 

[Jimmy]

My own idea resembles something more like this...

Rather than trying to fire ordinance precisely through my own EMP field.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tandem-charge