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  • 📅 July 2024 is YE 46.5 in the RP.

FA4

This is in no way a starfighter.

First off, lets compare this to the NMX Shredder.

https://wiki.stararmy.com/doku.php?id=mi ... er_gunboat

https://wiki.stararmy.com/doku.php?id=nepleslia:na-fa4

Shredder: SP 5SDR/ 25 Mecha Scale
FA4: SP6 SDR/ 30 Mecha scale.

And lets look at Every other fighter in the site, NONE of which come even close to this monstrosity.

It's bigger, tougher, and faster than the Shredder.

It carries smaller fighter drones inside of it.

It's almost as large as a Ketsueki.


ALL OF its weapons ARE SDR.

This is not a fighter. This is Uso trying to sneak around starship limitations by calling a Gunship or a corvette a fighter. I am recommending that this submission is summarily rejected for being overpowered, breaking the SP rules, and being a sly attempt at getting around starship limitations.
 
As a minor nitpick, you also neglected to mention how many crew it can carry (even if it's only one person, you need to add that for a manned fighter Uso.)
 
I'll admit that modern fighters are about the same length or more, but its armor and SP is ridiculous.

Also, the Nuke Dumbfire system is a bit eccentric. It'd be a very inaccurate and ineffective weapon (Fired from long range, it'd either miss the moving target or be shot down by Point Defense systems, from short range they could practically kiss and the PDS systems will take it down anyway.)

If it were only inaccurate, I would suggest that it either have a deactivation timer for the warhead (rendering it harmless to any planets, moons, rocks, or friendlies who cross the Nuke's path at a future date.)

But since it's ineffective due to it being slow, inaccurate, and easily shot down, why not add engines to the warheads allowing them to speed up, change velocity, and be a bit more cost-effective in hitting the enemy where it hurts?

Singular projectiles wouldn't be adequate, but if a whole bunch were fired at once it would also make it a bit more effective. Nuclear Scattergun?
 
So, Five is upset that this submission:

Is about the same size as a present-day fighter craft?

Has about the same DR raiting as a comparable submission (shredder)

Has less but still similar DR output than a comparable submission (Shredder). Far less if you don't use the dumb nukes. The actual laser system has less total DR output than even the V6 fighter.

Has about the same speed as a similar submission (this has the same CDD speed as the C3E, Shredders have the same speed as fast NMX ships)

---

All and all this is actually well within what has already been used in the setting, less firepower, similar speeds, and a comparable size to real fighter craft.

The crew compliment (2) for the manned variant is listed on the K4B variant entry at the bottom.

And finally, the fighter itself is a sufficient delivery method for the weapons. In space you can just drop them off and let inertia carry them to their target. Also adding thrusters/engines/launchers would cut down on the number of bombs that could be carried. I'm really not to worried about point defenses and the like, after all that is only one of many payloads available to the FA4
 
Alright, lets get into the meat and gristle. May I ask a few questions?

How do you feel this will enhance the setting, and make it more enjoyable for players?

Where do you see this being used in a plot, and how will players interact with it?

Two submissions? Though they are related, you should probably submit them separately. I'll work on the assumption that this thread is for the FA4 itself.


Touching up on the others concerns.

The size is far larger than any contemporary fighter in the setting, I believe we can safely assume that miniaturisation has taken effect in the last couple of thousand years or so. Try comparing the FA4's size to other fighters in the setting, rather than our comparatively laughable in RL today. Another note on scale, at a rough guestimate from the picture, the cockpit for the manned version is about seven meters long and yay two-and-a-half wide, might wanna tweak that slightly if you feel the urge.

As I'm not privy to the mind of the creator of the Shredder, I can only assume it was made as a major boss character, not something you'd want to run into everyday. Considering what, I believe, is the intended use of the Shredder, and the size and resources put into the F4, you're claims that this vehicle is disposable are contradictory, miniaturisation (as mentioned above) means that this thing is a LOT bigger than anything else that...well, flies.

Nukes? Ain't gonna fly in my book, too OP, too sterile, not enough fun for a plot. Players can't even use them, this adds nothing to the setting for players or GMs to use. Dumb fired? If someone told me they were dumb dropping a nuke today, I would probably reply “Yeah yeah, don't feed me that bull---.”, this is a setting where some weapons can rip holes out the universe itself, this seems a little under-tech, especially since most Nep hardware seems to be based around actually hitting something.

Some more nitpicking, the Delta wing gives the aircraft a bad stall threshold, and the landing and take off procedures you describe require a lot of lift (also, technically they're short runway take-off and landings, not VTOL, but I won't call you out on it), something the delta wing is not well known for. Maybe it uses a small ramp while on the ground for take offs?


Notes:

Considering the intended use in ground support, I have to assume that friendly troops that call in one of these beasts are rapidly running in the opposite direction after the strike is called in. Do Neps have the resources to deal with the large amount of fallout from one of these weapons affecting the environment? I can't help but think of that one perk from MW2...

Unfortunately I don't see much RP value in these as they are, currently the only situation I can think of is players trying to get out of the blast zone. If you're using RL as a reference, perhaps you can use it as a sci-fi A-10 with a few changes.

Should probably be reclassified as a Bomber, and be nerfed to some extent, depending on the way it will be used in RP. Should at least comply with the Armour DR range if it is to be a "fighter", unless it is now a gunboat.


Personal Notes to the designer:

The only advice I can give to you for the future is to try and design submissions with fun in mind, fun for players, fun for GM's. Make them as sci-hard or sci-soft as you wish, but remember “Realism does not always equal fun, people are not all the same, and always aim for what will make the greater number of people happy.” This is very important when creating something you want others to use, abuse, and work with.
 
I had to edit this since Jimmy made an awesome post more or less stating the same thing, but better than I was writing. :oops:

I would like to elaborate more on some of the things Uso said though.

Is about the same size as a present-day fighter craft?
Click to expand...
And also larger in size to the setting's contemporary Gunboat, which is supposed to be one of the bigger units out there. As Jimmy stated, miniaturization etc..

Has about the same DR raiting as a comparable submission (shredder)

Has less but still similar DR output than a comparable submission (Shredder). Far less if you don't use the dumb nukes. The actual laser system has less total DR output than even the V6 fighter.
Click to expand...
Your laser package also doubles in its main purpose as an optics sensory package. Which, if I remember correctly, the lenses for a weapons-grade laser and an imaging device are extremely different. Why not simply make another article for the weapon, and leave the sensors alone?

Also, did you compare the articles?

Shredder
Main heavy aether turret (SDR 3/ADR 15)
Two twin anti-armor plasma turrets (SDR 1/ADR 5)
Six underside launchers for bombs, mines, sensor drones, or excessive amounts of mini-missiles
24 mini-missiles per launcher allow firing up to 144 missiles at once…and it has room for multiple reloads. Each mini-missile = ADR 2.
Can be arranged in a combination (eg 4 mini-missile launchers and two napalm bomb launchers)

Whereas, your submission can mount:

Na-FA4-E3200 DESCO Laser Array SDR: 3, Range: .1au

Large Internal Weapons Bay (x2)

2 N-F2 (SDR:3 for Ramming ADR:4 and 2 for corresponding Mass Drivers)
12 Unguided Nukes (SDR: 2)

Small Internal Weapons Bay (x2)

1 N-F2 (SDR:3 for Ramming ADR:4 and 2 for corresponding Mass Drivers)
12 Unguided Nukes (SDR: 1)

The Shredder mounts only ONE SDR 3 weapon. Your submission can have up to FOUR, with three one-time munitions, TWO to have TWELVE more SDR 2 weapons to add on.

Your submission has a lot more firepower than the Shredder, lets face it. Its SP and Armor is also ridiculous.

Hull: 30 ADR (Translates to: 6 SDR)
Shields: 30 [SP] (Threshold 3)

Versus the Shredder's:

Yamatium Hull: 5 SP (starship scale)
Shields: 5 SP (starship scale)

It appears to me as if your submission far outclasses the Shredder in shielding and armor.

A Heavy Fighter's SP, according to the Damage Rating Article is 25. Your shields are apparently SP 30, and therefore not a fighter, but something a bit larger. It also violates the maximum shielding it can have for its class, I believe.

Is it Starship Scale SP 5 like the Shredder? Or more? Less? If it is, why isn't it in SSP in the first place? Readers shouldn't have to muddle around trying to convert the numbers. Can you make it clearer?

In summary: It does more potential damage for the Shredder, its armor appears to be in excess of the Shredder, and its Shields appear to be in excess of the Shredder AND in violation of its class rules.

I've also stated my opinions on the Dumbfire Nuke system, as well, and you haven't said or done anything that convinces me a government would produce such an ineffective weapon. Uranium is still expensive, even in the future, so why should they waste their resources on building nukes that probably won't reach their target?

Uranium is a heavy element created when truly MASSIVE stars go supernova. It's rare and expensive, so why would a government spend those resources on this delivery system when it won't even reach the target, in all likelihood?

In space, even as fast as your weapon is going, you're fighting without even seeing each other. That's thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of KM distant. If you're off by the slightest degree, you're munition is going to miss by hundreds (if not thousands) of KM. It's also firing at a moving target, which can vary between being a bit slower to being much, much faster.

But let's say it's going to hit, unless something changes its course. At long range, its velocity isn't going to change. It's coming in from one direction, and this will allow the enemy's Point Defense computer(s) to see, identify, and eliminate it as soon as it comes into range.

At short range, your fighter is going to be within range of these same PDS systems, and be swatted (probably) before you even fire the munition. If you do: Yes, it'll hit. Wonderful. But it's only one bomb, and you lose a fighter in the process. I would think the fighter is a bit more expensive than the bomb, and so this renders the weapon systems cost-ineffective.

Simply adding a way for the missile to change velocity, or for multiples of smaller nuclear weapons (I like the former, not the latter, but both could work.) to be fired would make the system appeal more to the taxpayers of Nepleslia.
 
The shredder is a starship and should not be used for comparison with fighter craft.

My general guidelines for fighters are this:

- FIghter weapons should stay in the armor scale with a max of ADR 5 (eg SDR 1)
- Torpedoes are separate articles and the fighter just needs to worry about hardpoints, not what is put on them.

30 SP = Level 6 on the armor scale...so this submission is off the charts, literally. It already takes TEN hits of the most powerful weapon on the armor scale to take down something that's 25 SP (armor scale) and full shields). 30 SP is just excessive.
 
Wes said:
The shredder is a starship and should not be used for comparison with fighter craft.

My general guidelines for fighters are this:

- FIghter weapons should stay in the armor scale with a max of ADR 5 (eg SDR 1)
- Torpedoes are separate articles and the fighter just needs to worry about hardpoints, not what is put on them.

30 SP = Level 6 on the armor scale...so this submission is off the charts, literally. It already takes TEN hits of the most powerful weapon on the armor scale to take down something that's 25 SP (armor scale) and full shields). 30 SP is just excessive.
Click to expand...


Wes, the Shredder is the only thing that even compares to this.
 
This ship only has a single SDR3 weapon compared to the V6 turrets at 3ADR per turret x 6 turrets for an output of 18 ADR per round or SDR 3.6! Or compared with the shredder’s SDR output of SDR5 per turn not even counting its 144 missiles at 2 ADR each for 288 ADR (57.6 SDR , enough to instagib a cruiser sized starship). This is also still smaller than the hammer head which also carries similarly high damage weapons but is also outdated. There is also already precedent for star fighters with SDR weapons, the much smaller V8 Kawarmie has 4 SDR 1 guns which would fire together for SDR4 hits against starships! That’s the same as an aether cannon on rapid fire mode. Even the recon variant that is supposed to be lightly armed carries two SDR1 cannons.


The weapon system isn’t really more powerful than other fighter submissions, it is just more focused, swapping a bunch of turrets or gun arrays for a single laser system. With the drop in damage output for a fighter that is much larger than its Yamatai counterparts it seems fair and having the one beam plays a lot better visually then having three or more smaller beams doing the exact same thing. I really don’t want to have to put cannons sticking out on every surface of the craft.



As for ADR 30 vs ADR 25 for a difference of two hits, that seems really trivial but I’ll drop it down to 25 anyways because it really doesn’t matter. That would put this as a 'heavy fighter' which sounds about right for a combination fighter and attack plane.
 
And for everyone else…

This is the same size as previous submissions that do the same thing, and is to scale with IRL designs. Saying ‘miniaturization’ is a terrible argument to bring forth as some of the SAoY fighters like the V6 don’t even have a place to put their landing gear! Combine internal weapon bays, Engines, Remass tanks, electronics, sensors, FTLs, space to store landing gear, laser optics, enough armor to withstand re-entry and enough thrusters to allow for maneuvering in space and the design becomes fairly jam packed full of equipment which requires space. If it were any smaller then it wouldn’t have the space needed to store its gear internally so it makes little sense to have a fighter craft be much smaller than this.

Neppies also don’t have a quick way of creating new bodies on demand out in space (yet?) so being able to reuse the pilots is kinda nice. Like it says in the article not having a pilot is why the drones are expendable because no one is going to cry over a lost drone.

As for nukes not being fun enough, well, I guess that is true because there has never been an exciting scene in popular culturethat involves nukes. In all seriousness that seems to me like saying ‘guns are boring and shouldn’t be approved’ which I really don’t agree with.

As for having a low stall threshold, that’s why it says in the article that landing is really more of a controlled fall than a hover. The lift nose for vertical blastoff maneuver is also something used in the T2, both craft even have the same landing gear to allow for that particular maneuver. The engines used in the setting are easily powerful enough so that you don’t need wings anyways, the shape is mainly just to reduce the shock of sliding into the atmosphere at high speeds.

As for Notes on how this is used in RP, well, you aren’t going to drop nukes on your own doods unless you really need to. Lasers, the waiting for approval JAM missile, and upcoming ground attack packages are intended to fill the role of ground support. Even with the current loadouts nukes aren’t the only option available.

And as for not much value in RP, well, I guess there has never been a situationwhere drama has unfolded because of an airplane with weapons on it.

When it comes to laser optics, the mechanisms for focusing light (laser) are remarkably similar to mechanisms for focusing light (camera) and for the optics required to focus light (telescope). Yes they are different to an extent, but it makes a lot of sense to share as many components as possible.

Uranium is as common as tin,which explains why governments don’t use tin (because it is super rare). Nukes would also be far cheaper to produce than fusion weapons or aether weapons because high technology or space bending goodness isn’t required, so it makes a lot of sense to use them in this role.


When it comes down to it, saying this has more firepower than the shredder or even other star fighters means you aren’t doing the math or not bothering to look at the wiki.
 
This submission is rejected for being overpowered.

If this were approved a single fighter could instantly kill starships like the Plumeria in one combat round, which is ridiculous.

SDR 3 guns don't belong on fighters, period and such a large mass of SDR missiles is excessive (currently your nukes can hit by 48 SDR in one round).
 
Swapped out the SDR 3 weapon for 3 SDR 1 weapons (compared to the 4 SDR 1 guns on the V8), the nukes have also been removed.


Having to make those changes seems absurd though. The shredder can already insta-gib a plumeria in one combat round and has a higher DR output with weapons that are guided. (Nearly SDR 60! Enough to instagib cruiser level ships.)

The V8 has an SDR4 gun array.

The V6 has an SDR output of 3.6. with its guns alone.

The V6 can also unleash SDR 20 worth of torpedoes in a single volley and those are guided FTL torpedoes and you could field nearly 2 of these for every one FA4 which is 40 SDR worth of torpedoes, making two enough to instagib a plumbera in one round of combat.

Considering that this is a much larger fighter that actually has less DR output than other submissions I don't think you can consider this overpowered. It is far more reasonable than its counterparts per SP point.
 
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