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Gravimetric Tech and You.
- Thread starter Soresu
- Start date
It isn't, as far as I know. Especially since Iromakuanhe vehicles tend to use gravity manipulating devices (https://wiki.stararmy.com/doku.php?id=ir ... :ge_lifter) and the fact that Neko have some gravity controlling abilities of their own.
Unless I'm misunderstanding the term Gravimetric.
Unless I'm misunderstanding the term Gravimetric.
Fred
Retired Staff
Well, it was based on some discussion I remember Uso was heavily involved in, and that Wes ending up thinking Uso's arguments made a lot of sense. A precursor of this was this post in Miharu's overhaul thread.
Since then, nothing Wes has been making has had much in the way of gravimetric technology... except perhaps gravimetric shielding (which may or may not be part of the Combined Field System) and Graviton beams.
I was on the impression I couldn't use them myself, which was why I tweaked my plans with Miahru so that its engines wouldn't be gravimetric-technology anymore. I'll admit I think this sort of thread is nice, because it allows us to come clean on what the Setting Manager wants in this regard for SARP.
Since then, nothing Wes has been making has had much in the way of gravimetric technology... except perhaps gravimetric shielding (which may or may not be part of the Combined Field System) and Graviton beams.
I was on the impression I couldn't use them myself, which was why I tweaked my plans with Miahru so that its engines wouldn't be gravimetric-technology anymore. I'll admit I think this sort of thread is nice, because it allows us to come clean on what the Setting Manager wants in this regard for SARP.
Soresu
Well-Known Member
Well, Uso likes to make his little schpeals on Physics in a sci-fi rp setting, and while I can appreciate some of his points, I don't really care for a vast majority. (I.E Physics playing such a major role on here.)
More or less, there isn't anything wrong with using Gravimetric Systems. Maybe they don't make sense, or "Won't work." to Physics Professors and the like, but they are still a legit piece of tech that had no issues until one person went off on them.
Manipulating gravity should be easy in regards to the level of technologies some of the races have.
The major thing that is throwing me off a great deal is this (It is not the entirety of the quoted text, only about two or three points.),
If we are comparing it to a CDD drive, then what is the big deal? CDD will never be gone. CDD is a FTL drive, but in this instance, Gravimetric Drives are being compared to a drive that more or less a Subspace 'Tunneling' or Warp drive (The CDD drive's wiki isn't lengthy enough for me to draw a better conclusion).
And in truth, I have stated a few times, species do not evolve on the same evolutionary track as others, and will a vast majority of the time develop different technologies, and innovations. Gravimetric systems, being a part of that is entirely feasible. The only way for every race ever to be made to have a Hyperfold, CDD, CFS is if it were given to them. The chance of them developing the same technologies and principals are low. In some instances it can be high, and in major instances, extremely erratic and random from a statistical point of view to the point of being unpredictable.
Gravimetric systems could work B-5 style, or another way. Ion, and Plasma systems are a major step back in terms of propulsive technologies (I am however confident others can be found.) considering we're making them viable now, in the real world. And something that I have constantly tried to pound into Uso's skull is, "Your Laws of Physics are ever changing, they do not remain a constant." which, holds true.
Things we theorized never could be done, we're doing now, and I imagine things we theorized never could be done now, could possibly be done in the future.
On the subject of Anti-FTL fields, they may or may not work on Gravimetric Drives in a given situation from a reasoning standpoint. If Anti-FTL utilizes gravity to hold a ship in place, disabling FTL, we could equate the usage of them on a Gravimetric Drive (If they indeed use Gravity) to a person with wet hands, and a lathered bar of soap squeezing his hands together. The soap flies out at high speed as pressure and or force is applied.
To nullify a Gravimetric Drive (Minus me going into Quantum Theory and Physics and using what we have on here. And me speculating on how to do this.) you would have to make a field of Anti-Gravity, canceling the propulsive 'force' much like sound cancellation and resonance. It would have to remain constant, and exert a much greater force. But, this means that an Anti-Gravity field is an Anti-Anti FTL field. Which...if given some thought on just how far it could go would make things very confusing, lengthy, or frustrating.
If a Plumeria were to cancel another Plumeria's drive system, it would, but based purely on the fact both are equal in terms of force exerted if using stock equipment. However, if the other Plumeria were to exert an Anti-Gravity field, nullification would be gone, and the Drives working again. The scope of it can be rather daunting, or tiny given a varying degree possibilities in a given situation.
Or, you could disrupt the normal flow of space time, which, is a bad thing for everyone.
~~~~~
-Takes a step back, and looks at what he typed.- "It's just umm...WOW, I really confused myself. The possibility of a paradox, or a never ending loop, and or self perpetuating constant are staggering if this held true.
" -Actually now has the beginnings of a headache. (Yes, I tried to think and rationalize this.)-
More or less, there isn't anything wrong with using Gravimetric Systems. Maybe they don't make sense, or "Won't work." to Physics Professors and the like, but they are still a legit piece of tech that had no issues until one person went off on them.
Manipulating gravity should be easy in regards to the level of technologies some of the races have.
The major thing that is throwing me off a great deal is this (It is not the entirety of the quoted text, only about two or three points.),
Wes said:
If we are comparing it to a CDD drive, then what is the big deal? CDD will never be gone. CDD is a FTL drive, but in this instance, Gravimetric Drives are being compared to a drive that more or less a Subspace 'Tunneling' or Warp drive (The CDD drive's wiki isn't lengthy enough for me to draw a better conclusion).
And in truth, I have stated a few times, species do not evolve on the same evolutionary track as others, and will a vast majority of the time develop different technologies, and innovations. Gravimetric systems, being a part of that is entirely feasible. The only way for every race ever to be made to have a Hyperfold, CDD, CFS is if it were given to them. The chance of them developing the same technologies and principals are low. In some instances it can be high, and in major instances, extremely erratic and random from a statistical point of view to the point of being unpredictable.
Gravimetric systems could work B-5 style, or another way. Ion, and Plasma systems are a major step back in terms of propulsive technologies (I am however confident others can be found.) considering we're making them viable now, in the real world. And something that I have constantly tried to pound into Uso's skull is, "Your Laws of Physics are ever changing, they do not remain a constant." which, holds true.
Things we theorized never could be done, we're doing now, and I imagine things we theorized never could be done now, could possibly be done in the future.
On the subject of Anti-FTL fields, they may or may not work on Gravimetric Drives in a given situation from a reasoning standpoint. If Anti-FTL utilizes gravity to hold a ship in place, disabling FTL, we could equate the usage of them on a Gravimetric Drive (If they indeed use Gravity) to a person with wet hands, and a lathered bar of soap squeezing his hands together. The soap flies out at high speed as pressure and or force is applied.
To nullify a Gravimetric Drive (Minus me going into Quantum Theory and Physics and using what we have on here. And me speculating on how to do this.) you would have to make a field of Anti-Gravity, canceling the propulsive 'force' much like sound cancellation and resonance. It would have to remain constant, and exert a much greater force. But, this means that an Anti-Gravity field is an Anti-Anti FTL field. Which...if given some thought on just how far it could go would make things very confusing, lengthy, or frustrating.
If a Plumeria were to cancel another Plumeria's drive system, it would, but based purely on the fact both are equal in terms of force exerted if using stock equipment. However, if the other Plumeria were to exert an Anti-Gravity field, nullification would be gone, and the Drives working again. The scope of it can be rather daunting, or tiny given a varying degree possibilities in a given situation.
Or, you could disrupt the normal flow of space time, which, is a bad thing for everyone.
~~~~~
-Takes a step back, and looks at what he typed.- "It's just umm...WOW, I really confused myself. The possibility of a paradox, or a never ending loop, and or self perpetuating constant are staggering if this held true.
" -Actually now has the beginnings of a headache. (Yes, I tried to think and rationalize this.)-
Fred
Retired Staff
I wouldn't go and say that CDD/CFS is going to be around forever. Wes did point out at some other time that he was strongly considering modifications in those regards... with either CDD-style "warp" FTL or Fold-style "hyperspace" becoming prevalent and the other phased out.
This probably would be a nice thread to cover that other issue as well.
This probably would be a nice thread to cover that other issue as well.
Soresu
Well-Known Member
@Fred: Well, I suppose I got the part about CDD being around forever wrong. But it has indeed been around for quite some time. So, Touche'. 
However, if we could cover the issues with Gravimetric Technologies and the like first, and foremost, I wouldn't mind if other areas are covered in this thread. Means we save a little effort as some of what may have been said could be useful further down the road.
-Is also going to retire to bed for the night.-
However, if we could cover the issues with Gravimetric Technologies and the like first, and foremost, I wouldn't mind if other areas are covered in this thread. Means we save a little effort as some of what may have been said could be useful further down the road.
-Is also going to retire to bed for the night.-
Fred
Retired Staff
Okay, well, let's be honest.
A Gravimetric Drive Propulsion system is pretty much the same in how it's applied to function to a Continuum Distorsion System.
The difference is mainly the operating capabilities of each. Gravimetric Drives can allow a ship to reach sublight speeds topping around 0.9c (very close to the speed of light). Continuum Distorsion Drives allow a ship to navigate to much higher faster-than-light speeds, but also include the capability to perform just as well as a gravimetric drive at sublight speeds.
In this light, Gravimetric Drives, as currently envisioned, are redundant.
Additionally, if we pay close attention historically to SARP, we'll come up with the fact that the Star Army of Yamatai - our main technological benchmark - came out with the gravimetric drives as an auxiliary measure to afford a starship or smaller craft propulsion.
Why? Because they discovered that when using some of their super-heavy weaponry, the fabric of space-time (sort of) did not like it and formed zones in which FTL-drive given locomotion did not function. The end results were many units stranded in that space.
Now, the observation we've come to is that... well, the gravimetric drives work so closely like the CDD/CFS that they actually make for a fairly poor auxiliary system. This is probably why we're seeing Wes increasingly favor somesort of advanced rocket-style propulsion... which is, when you take a moment to think about it - suitably foolproof (except for its reliance on aether power) to count as auxiliary propulsion.
The way things are working now, Wes' ships probably use those propulsion reactors for his sublight mobility and uses a fraction of the CFS capabilities to 'grease' space and allow the ship to transit at subluminal speed. Once he wants to go faster, the propulsion reactor shut down and his ships leap in super-luminal FTL.
Now, Wes will have to come out and smack be upside the head with a paper-fan if my interpretation of what he wants is wrong... but that's what I've seen Wes want to provide for locomotion.
Now, another concern Wes has is to avoid the excuse of super-luminal combat along with how cumbersome it seems to be in application - and again in light of the experience he wants to offer in this setting. Because of that, he's reconsidering the pros and cons of CDD/Fold style propulsion and trying to decide how to broach that.
This is important, because if Wes goes and choose, it'll again alter the base mechanics we'll end up using for in-system or sublight transit.
A Gravimetric Drive Propulsion system is pretty much the same in how it's applied to function to a Continuum Distorsion System.
The difference is mainly the operating capabilities of each. Gravimetric Drives can allow a ship to reach sublight speeds topping around 0.9c (very close to the speed of light). Continuum Distorsion Drives allow a ship to navigate to much higher faster-than-light speeds, but also include the capability to perform just as well as a gravimetric drive at sublight speeds.
In this light, Gravimetric Drives, as currently envisioned, are redundant.
Additionally, if we pay close attention historically to SARP, we'll come up with the fact that the Star Army of Yamatai - our main technological benchmark - came out with the gravimetric drives as an auxiliary measure to afford a starship or smaller craft propulsion.
Why? Because they discovered that when using some of their super-heavy weaponry, the fabric of space-time (sort of) did not like it and formed zones in which FTL-drive given locomotion did not function. The end results were many units stranded in that space.
Now, the observation we've come to is that... well, the gravimetric drives work so closely like the CDD/CFS that they actually make for a fairly poor auxiliary system. This is probably why we're seeing Wes increasingly favor somesort of advanced rocket-style propulsion... which is, when you take a moment to think about it - suitably foolproof (except for its reliance on aether power) to count as auxiliary propulsion.
The way things are working now, Wes' ships probably use those propulsion reactors for his sublight mobility and uses a fraction of the CFS capabilities to 'grease' space and allow the ship to transit at subluminal speed. Once he wants to go faster, the propulsion reactor shut down and his ships leap in super-luminal FTL.
Now, Wes will have to come out and smack be upside the head with a paper-fan if my interpretation of what he wants is wrong... but that's what I've seen Wes want to provide for locomotion.
Now, another concern Wes has is to avoid the excuse of super-luminal combat along with how cumbersome it seems to be in application - and again in light of the experience he wants to offer in this setting. Because of that, he's reconsidering the pros and cons of CDD/Fold style propulsion and trying to decide how to broach that.
This is important, because if Wes goes and choose, it'll again alter the base mechanics we'll end up using for in-system or sublight transit.
Soresu
Well-Known Member
I'm sorry, but Gravimetric, and CDD are different purely based on the wiki page provided in regards to the CDD. We're dealing with two fundamentally different systems, working on two different principals all together. CDD distorts space, and therefore likely subspace and some form of m.brane to accelerate to FTL speeds. Gravimetric deals with gravity I do believe to 'slip' about at sublight speed.
Just by mode alone One being FTL, and one being STL, they are inherently different. Just like one person to the next. They even have separate drive trains and systems then the FTL drives.
I should also mention, "peristaltic" is also a form of biological aide in the digestive process via the smooth muscles of the esophagus contracting to propel it through the digestive tract.
Fred
Retired Staff
In this setting, apparently, they do - or close equivalents. It's a superluminal method that gets you from point A and across to point B.
The whole wormhole debate never meant much to be because as far as I was concerned, a ship going in an hyperspace fold happened to disappear in one place and reappear in another. The theme in which they do so, in itself, is an entirely visual thing - otherwise, you were at point A, vanished and popped up eventually at Point B.
The whole wormhole debate never meant much to be because as far as I was concerned, a ship going in an hyperspace fold happened to disappear in one place and reappear in another. The theme in which they do so, in itself, is an entirely visual thing - otherwise, you were at point A, vanished and popped up eventually at Point B.
Soresu
Well-Known Member
Ok.... but not every race would develop Distortion Drives. I've pretty much broken it down earlier. The Iromakuanhe don't have them, the Abwehran's don't have them, the Lorath don't really utilize them, the Nepleslians could, but I am unsure of them.
You would have to have intergalactic salesmen out there selling them for it to happen thusly. Otherwise, it seems extremely fishy, and or odd. I'm not saying you know, get rid of it, and such, I was just of the notion, "If it isn't broken, why try and fix it?"
You would have to have intergalactic salesmen out there selling them for it to happen thusly. Otherwise, it seems extremely fishy, and or odd. I'm not saying you know, get rid of it, and such, I was just of the notion, "If it isn't broken, why try and fix it?"
Fred
Retired Staff
That happens.
That means the Abwehran use their ion drives (sublight travel propulsion - not gravimetric) to get to the edge of a system and fold out. It's feasible in most science fiction settings.
The Iroma seem to have sublight propulsion and translation-style FTL capabilities similar in concept to the CDD. In fact, they only use their MASC propulsion for both sublight and FTL.
Different methods and systems are employed, but the general principle is still pretty much the same. More importantly in our case, Wes took the decision that he wanted Gravimetric Engines to be less used in submissions (at least Yamatai-related submissions) because of arguments unveiled before.
That means the Abwehran use their ion drives (sublight travel propulsion - not gravimetric) to get to the edge of a system and fold out. It's feasible in most science fiction settings.
The Iroma seem to have sublight propulsion and translation-style FTL capabilities similar in concept to the CDD. In fact, they only use their MASC propulsion for both sublight and FTL.
Different methods and systems are employed, but the general principle is still pretty much the same. More importantly in our case, Wes took the decision that he wanted Gravimetric Engines to be less used in submissions (at least Yamatai-related submissions) because of arguments unveiled before.
