Ke-H1-P3300 Type 33 Star Fortress Fold System

I dislike the notion of starbases being moved unless in the most exceptional circumstances - with the assumption from there that their emplacement will be mostly fixed so that they be target needing to be defended rather than more mobile and capable of fleeing... and those are the strategic concerns alone.

Moving a starbase/starfortress/spacestation should be doable, but a large time and logistic investment that ought to not be taken lightly. The above submission encourages the opposite. Heck, if anything, the Iori's are already too mobile.

I suspect this may be for plot purposes? Perhaps it's needed for that... but for me, it raises alarm flags: rapid response should be meant for warships, not space stations. Kage Yaichiro is obviously a forward thinking engineer, but I feel this is too much. From a GM's perspective (and according to advice Wes gave me when I was designing Miharu) making something better/closer to perfect can actually lead to indesirable results.

I view the above as such.

I have to agree. I'll let Toshiro put up his counter-argument though before I reject this.

Woah. Woah woah woah.


This reeks of corruption to me. Toshiro works hard on a submission, and it gets rejected with a snap of Fred's fingers just 'cause of his opinion?

That ain't right man. He aint even a Tech mod, and he just runs one single plot. I don't care how long he's been on the site, he's just a GM. He isn't a yellow or green name, just a blue name, and he doesn't need that much unrestrained power.

While Fred may not like this concept. That is not grounds for rejection. Besides the role of a Tech Mod is to first try to help make the submission something that can be used, not to rejecting immediately just because they do not like the concept. That is not a criteria of the checklist.

This is indeed for plot purposes -- Andrew is making the 7th a Mobile Fleet without holdings and specifically asked for a new fold system for his Iori because they will need to be more mobile. Wes already agreed to the re-purposing of the fleet in this way as far as I know, and also agreed that this could be submitted under KFY's banner. While not an automatic 'I approve of this' thing, it means I think it might be considered with care for the sake of the 7th's specific situation.

We attempted to make it a complex system with features fitting for protecting such an important thing, going with this instead of dual fold drives in an attempt to attain balance. I wanted to make an emergency system to ignore cooldown once, but tried to balance it by making in once per operation and require maintenance and replenishment afterward -- even risking damage. I might be willing to negotiate possibly, but in the end, I think Andrew would need to weigh in before any changes were made since he issued the requirements for this.

If a criterion for approval is that it's only used for the 7th SF, I wouldn't foresee an issue though.

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Also, thank you for the support, though Fred has the same right to comment as everyone else -- I just hope the issue isn't closed too quickly/without compromise. Andrew still needs to weigh in.

I believe Fred was approaching from a 'does this enrich the setting' point of view. While I don't agree necessarily with everything stated, I'm not offended or alarmed.

As far as I know, I aired an opinion on my personal views - which on some level I know Toshiro and I do not see eye to eye. Toshiro in the past has argued for himself very well and generally ignored or powered through any arguments I had to give. Typically when Toshiro asks for my opinion, he listens to it, considers, and generally goes his own way anyways because he has his own vision and it's usually pretty concrete.

I also acknowledged this could be something for plot purposes, given the reasons for me raising it - which could possibly make my opinion redundant - as a GM, I enjoy putting my own little touches in my plot and I'm sure Andrew enjoys the same priviledges for his. I may feel I have compelling reasons to find this feels wrong, but that's not the end-all of things that happen on the site.

Basically, I feel that bases should be base and carry the omph of that significant both in importance, assets and constraints. Once the base starts moving as fast as something that's not a base (like Miharu) my sense of suspension of disbelief starts waving red flags - perhaps because I'm a Star trek fan. This said, that point of view doesn't seem prevalent, since even Wes entertains the notion of making planets fold around.

That makes my head hurt. I'd much rather see motherships fold around and act as a mobile response force than bases. In medieval fantasy, flying castles aren't usually the norm. They're usually grounded, fixed and busy being castles.

Anyhow.

Like Five pointed out, I'm a GM for one plot, I'm a staffer, and I'm not an admin at present. All I do, at best, is nominate stuff for consideration.

I also in no way made a statement as blunt as "I don't recommend this for approval". I do tend to have some clout when I go that far, but it's generally due to credibility and not any conspiracy theories, show of tyranny and whatnot.

Excuse me, but my reason (though I'm sorry I made it unclear) for wanting to reject this was because I personally felt that bringing back a fold system for Starbases was a bad idea, for similar reasons to Fred (and I had formed these opinions before he posted in this thread.)

The fact is, having a starbase with hundreds of SDR 3+ guns flitting about is overpowered. Hell, if I thought it mattered enough I'd pull the Ikoi (which is a light starbase) up to be re-reviewed and rejected because it's also mobile.

Like Fred said "Castles are busy being castles" and while the 7th Fleet may want to be mobile, it inevitably needs some framework for logistical support.

Last I checked, I was the techmod, I wasn't corrupt, and rejecting overpowered submissions offhand has never been a problem in the past -- and in this case I didn't even reject it offhand! I respect Toshiro enough to make a good argument for the submission's approval.

This submission is Pending. Both because I want to do a thorough review of it and this needs the FM's approval.

Edit: I'd also expect those who know me and the way I operate to realize that I wasn't rejecting this offhand or without grounds.

Edit 2: Could Wes please post his FM approval here?

I've PMed Wes, so we'll see how it goes there. Also, I'm not upset about people voicing legitimate concerns about it -- I just hope there's some room for discussion and negotiation if it comes to that before an outright disapproval happens.

I'll PM Andrew while I'm at it -- he needs to weigh in.

I don't think this submission should be rejected. The Iori has always been mobile but it has never had a decent fold system description and this would fix that. Star Fortresses are our mother ships and fleet hubs. They are heavily armed but that is for defense. The reason Star Fortresses are typically not running around the universe is because they're too valuable to lose, not because of technological limitations or OOC opinions about their mobility as a ship vs. starbase.

Wes said:

I don't think this submission should be rejected. The Iori has always been mobile but it has never had a decent fold system description and this would fix that. Star Fortresses are our mother ships and fleet hubs. They are heavily armed but that is for defense. The reason Star Fortresses are typically not running around the universe is because they're too valuable to lose, not because of technological limitations or OOC opinions about their mobility as a ship vs. starbase.

Click to expand...

So, they're more like giant motherships that usually stay stationary than actual starbases like STO's Earth Space Dock?

...great. I was imagining space stations, and it was actually more like the giant flying saucers from V.

Well, there goes my argument.

I Agree with Fred and SSharp, here.

When I designed Dawn Station, I of course gave it the capability of moving, but it was something that I had always thought to be extremely difficult, power consuming, and probably dangerous. When you have something that's 40KM in diameter, filled with people and stuff, Moving about, it's hard to see it being easy.

If all this is is just a better description of the Fold system that only very very occasionally moves a Starbase, then I have no problems with it. However, the idea of starbases being capable of just going wherever whenever they feel like gives be a very bad feeling.

But in the past they've always been just as mobile as starships (just slower). They're designed to travel with their fleets and be their fleet's hub, kind of like Bodolza's base and his Zentran fleet.

I have no problem with Star Fortresses being mobile, although I subscribe to a couple of paradigms about that.

1) A Star Fortress is a significant resource to a fleet. Moving them is risky and there needs to be a damn good reason for it. Will you see my Taisho using them as a starship charging into battle no too valuable. Case in point, the Chiharu when it became a 2XF asset. Its moved twice, once to Daichi so serve as headquarters, the second time to Veronica to protect the SATA facilities there.

2) Star Fortresses are Slow, they should be given you are moving a city size object. Having them lead the way in a fleet attack, means your entire fleet has to travel at the slowest speed. Not exactly optimum for a group wanting to make lighting strikes.

Though this system allows the Star Fortress to be used in such a way if the GM desires, it may still cause them significant trouble to do so. I think part of the problem here is less the actual submission than the perceptions about reasons Andrew needs it for in his plot, though in the end it's up to the GM or FM how it plays out. I can see where you're coming from, though I have to work with what Andrew wants for this particular one until he speaks up.

The speed of the Star Fortress hasn't been tampered with -- they're the same speed as under the old system.

If this is just a better description of the fold technology already in existence, why does it need its own article?

Then the controversy in this thread is not about Toshiro's submission proper, but about the subject it helped make come to the surface: the capacity for star fortress' and other yamataian base-structures to show such mobility, with implied slipperiness and ability to withdraw from trouble, which makes them storywise much weaker elements in my opinion.

I don't like it, but arguing further on this thread for anything else but the merit of the performance of the submission based on existing and established setting elements would be unfair to the author. While I do believe it's tantamount to building on a weak foundation, Toshiro is only building up from setting precedents and fleshing it out - any argument against that precedent and if it should be reconsidered should be aired elsewhere. Therefore, I withdraw my previous objections.

What I would like to point out for the merit of this submission is comparison. My previous plotship, following established hyperspace ground rules, took 1 min+ (depending on distance) to make a fold jump and perhaps shorter if it was an emergency fold jump. It's maximum speed was 0.4 ly/m.

So, in effect, this system pushes the 'fast response' aspect wished for the 7th fleet to a point where a star fortress can be more mobile than a ship. Is that really a desirable trait?

Finally, I'm okay with 7th fleet exclusivity. This would basically mean that Kage Yaichiro personally tweaked, maintained and optimized the fold system of the 7th's star forts. I think, in that light, that it's cool to reward character action and involvement this way (I wish I actually would've seen more of it with my techs on Miharu). I think, though, I would've rather seen it as a acknowledged modification that carried bonuses which would be listed on the Star Forts individually (in the same vein as the Aeon and Eucharis being tweaked and customizable on their wiki pages).

So, my proposal, if everyone is cool with the charge time and speed... would be to give Toshiro precisely what he wants - but as a modification to the wiki of the Star Fortresses involved, and not an actual new piece of technology added to the setting. It makes Yaichiro look cool, gives Andrew what he wants, but explains away why the rest of the starfortresses could be like this: they wouldn't have Yaichiro personally tending to them.

Maybe, uh, we should have two classes of starfortresses

The Mobile, really huge ones like Bodolza's, and the "immobile" ones like Iserlohn and Geiersberg.

Wes pretty much nailed what I have to say on this. This fold system was designed specifically to cater to the needs of Hotaru and Himitsu which due to the nature of the 7th Fleet are very mobile in comparison to most Iori's currently in use.

So I think in compromise I would like to at least see this customization improved for those two Fortresses.

(Hope this posts. The university is having connection issues)

Well, I have problems with it. I honestly don't like the idea of mobile star fortresses. However, if it's only for the 7th SF...Approved.

I hope I don't regret this.