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Ke-M12-1A (PT-M2-1A) Kirie Thought Armor + Built in Weaponry

Toshiro

Toshiro

Inactive Member
Main article:
Kirie Thought Armor

Built In Weapons:
Ke-M12-W3300 Forearm Weapon
Ke-M12-W3301 Mini-Missile Launcher
Ke-M12-W3302 Nodal Support Drone Hangar

These submissions are the Kirie plus its built in weapons. Rifles and supplemental modules for hardpoints are to be submitted seperately.

I would like to note that the Kirie is supposed to be the best and most elite model in Project THOUGHT's portfolio (at least for for now, who knows what ideas the future brings), as costly as it is powerful and difficult to master. It is not meant to be used by mainstream pilots, and would likely be reserved for test pilots, nobility, and veteran characters. I plan to work backwards from this to make the Keiko mass production model and maybe something even simpler that's LAMIA-based. Not sure yet.

I apologize for the exhaustive submission, but I spent a year on the basic concept, left for a year, then spent the past year rewriting and enhancing. I hope it shows.

The weapons are a scaled up forearm cannon with some improved DR and range values reflecting the larger generator available/new size class, a built in missile launcher that can use the Mindy's missiles as well as three new larger ones to start, and an NSD Hangar which uses the exact same NSDs as the Mindy Series.

Obviously, it uses the Mindy as the inspiration for its basic armament though there are notable differences in operation and scale. It is electrically compatible with Mindy hardpoint-based systems, but their use may require innovative solutions and they are not specifically noted as fully compatible. The Teleportation units are not compatible with the Kirie as the Kirie's weight far exceeds the maximum mass for it.

Higher Missile STL and NSD STL speeds reflected here are slashed in half from the original Mindy articles in an attempt to comply with the speed standards, but are the exact same hardware.

Also, I have Wes' permission to submit these as KFY models. The Project THOUGHT secondary nomenclature is for IC development reasons.
 
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Re: Ke-M12-1A (PT-M2-1A) Kirie Thought Armor + Built in Weap

Cursory Observations:

There are no ADR 6-8 on the damage scale. So it'd only go up to ADR 5 for the forearm weapons. There is also a coding error on the armor section for "Yama-Dura" on the main Kirie page.

Ke-M2-W2907-MFMA
Multi-Function Missile Avoidance: Distracts enemy missiles with intense heat
and electro-magneto-gravitic spikes
Click to expand...

It would need a gravity generator to make "gravitic spikes." So it maybe a bit bulky. Some of these what I'm calling "ECM" mini-missiles seem a little too complicated/convoluted in terms of what they actually do. Aetheric Distortions, Gravitic Spikes a "Mini-Missile" collapsing wormholes... The last one is pretty much null since we've done away with most Anti-FTL. Most missiles in the setting don't even utilize ultra-sophisticated targeting systems that these "ECM" missiles are made to counter.

Also, how did you arrive at such... numbers for a self-destruct?
 
Re: Ke-M12-1A (PT-M2-1A) Kirie Thought Armor + Built in Weap

Fixed the Yama Dura issue.


I might be willing to go ADR 6/4/5 on the Forearms if there's concern of a balance problem for a built in weapon, but the Sword seems like it would in any case break ADR5. I chose ADR because I don't want to have to switch to the SDR scale form something above ADR5 just because I'm going past the Mindy's size class. I didn't think the sword justified an SDR2, but I think it's got more power than that of the Mindy's which I estimate as ADR5 from the wording in the Mindy Wiki page...and I didn't want to have to put SDR1.1 or SDR1.3, so I used the ADR scale.

There is a great deal more room for systems in the Kirie than in the Mindy or other PA, especially with the pilot in a fetal position, and I feel the DR should reflect that as well as the size class increase.

Looking at the Damage Rating Page, there is a conversion table listing values up to ADR 25 in comparison to others, and that's in the Attack Power section, not the Defense.

I guess the big question is, what's keeping ADR levels above five from being used, and how do we assign values when something is a higher Armor-based weapon above ADR5/SDR1 but doesn't warrant SDR2?



The values for the self destruct were complex and they're open to recommendations...They were not easy to calculate and I'm not fully sure if they would be right or not. SDR 5 within a localized area was chosen because entries for other PAs (not using the DR scale for self destruct) indicated the destruction was more or less complete and total in an area around the craft.

Then I figured that since the Kirie was larger and had significantly more room for a larger Aether Generator, it'd be conservative to double the volume of its largest self destruct blast. That came out to 28 meters in radius compared to the Mindy's 20 meters. Then I just did my best to part out the force among the systems that might be used for overload, on the basis that the thing was expensive and they might destroy a part rather than the whole thing. Depending on the system, I messed with radius and/or DR.

The self destruct tables are certainly up for changing. I did my best on them, but they were troublesome.
 
Re: Ke-M12-1A (PT-M2-1A) Kirie Thought Armor + Built in Weap

You can't go beyond ADR 5, that's how the system works for the scales. ADR 5 is SDR 1 even if you want to just say it is ADR 5 it can still scratch a ship. Also, there are no decimals in the DR system (I don't know why, there just isn't). That scale is there as a comparison for how much Damage you're doing to the rank below you. You hit someone with an SDR 5 gun you're hit for 25 ADR if you're in a mech or PA, or 125 if you're a person. In which case if you're a person... you are paste or ash. SDR 2 weapons on mechs or PA have also been met with some disapproval by some on here or rather have encountered an uphill battle to get passed.

That aside, the system is not really on trial here. The values you put on it are. The system doesn't take higher values into consideration so we just "grin and bear it."

As for the self-destruct tables... someone could disconnect, or outright cut their lower halves off and fling them at ships and cause a huge explosion. An extreme and highly improbable example but still. I'm honestly at a loss as to how to deal with your tables. Though I think you may have gone a teensy bit overboard in the detail and number crunching. ^^;

EDIT: Also, I'm not really reviewing your submissions, I'm pointing out cause for concern. The DR values however are one of the points I will have to ask to be lowered to the preset limits for scaling. Can't negotiate on that I'm sad to say. Unless by some act of god you were allowed to go to "ADR 8". But then it would be liable to cause a stir amongst the other submitters on the site.
 
Re: Ke-M12-1A (PT-M2-1A) Kirie Thought Armor + Built in Weap

Sorry about not addressing the missile earlier, it was late last night.

The missile is an existing Augmentation Pod missile in use for 6 IC years, so I'm not sure if I should change that description -- unless you're revoking it's approval. I can mess with speeds to fall in the speed standard, but I don't exactly have authority to change what the thing is.

I've changed the Forearm Projectors to stay below ADR 5, but I've doubled the diameter of the their output and eliminated the charge mode from the beam. There is a warning though, that constant use may make it overheat. The blade is also increased by 0.25m. I feel that with the additional power the machine has, some kind of increase is warranted.

That doesn't change the original concern of "Where do we go from here" when it comes to ADR. Do I start making SDR 2 rifles and shoulder cannons?

If ADR 5 is really the highest possible, I want to make it more compatible with Mindy Dorsal and Shoulder modules than shown here, maybe even saying its fingers can manage to use Mindy handheld armaments...though I will still add my own Kirie/Keiko specific components.


As for self destruct, what do you think is fair?
 
Re: Ke-M12-1A (PT-M2-1A) Kirie Thought Armor + Built in Weap

A fix for the Damage Rating system was already proposed here for GM-eyes only. Though even though there's a majority in favor of it, the admins are kind of stonewalling the issue via, well, silence and ignoring it until it goes away. I've asked that the thread be moved to the NTSE forum so that more people could comment on it since then, but that hasn't been done.

The basic premise is doing away with the numerical values and instead relying on the weapon's roles to determine its lethality, going from anti-personnel, to anti-armor, anti-mecha, anti-starship, anti-capital vessel - while it's meant more under the purpose of going along with evocative narrative better: if you use an anti-armor weapon on a power armor, you can expect it to be potentially lethal on the power armor, more so on personnel, less so against a mecha.

It simplified shield technology to make it more intuitive for a GM to use without making it artificially ablative and in general made damage tracking less of a chore and more centered just on imagery.

Anyhow, not that I wanted to derail your thread with this, but you asked - and the issue was being discussed. In the Kirie's case, I'm fairly sure slapping the anti-mecha role to several of its weapons for starters would do them more justice.
 
Re: Ke-M12-1A (PT-M2-1A) Kirie Thought Armor + Built in Weap

They're all listed as Anti Mecha already in purpose, so it should be alright there. Also, I think I found a nice justification for allowing the use of a Mindy's weapons, particularly the handheld weapons:

The Kirie continues to use the concept of hardpoints to allow the craft to be better suited for various mission profiles. Though designed to carry systems to scale with its frame, the Kirie is capable of utilizing Mindy-series accessories as long as they can physically fit onto the Thought Armor's frame. This does not include the Mindy’s Teleportation Module, which is insufficient for carrying the mass of the craft. The Kirie can use Mindy Handheld weapons in spite of its size, because the Mindy and its weapons must be designed to fit with Nekovalkyrja hands which have thicker fingers proportionally than the Yamataian-based finger design of the Kirie and Keiko. Therefore, the more slender fingers of the Kirie and Keiko fit nicely onto the Mindy's weapons, though sometimes the pinky must be extended to use a weapon if there is not room for the finger on the grip.
Click to expand...

I pretty much say that the Mindy weapons are meant for thick fingered Neko hands, and that the increase in the scale and the use of a more slender Yamataian/humanoid finger cancels out and lets the Kirie use those weapons, though sometimes the pinky won't fit on the grip.
 
Re: Ke-M12-1A (PT-M2-1A) Kirie Thought Armor + Built in Weap

Personally, I don't buy the justification for using Mindy handhelds. It doesn't fit the imagery you've been promoting of the Kirie being larger - I just don't see the hands fitting, and I find the use of the word 'slender' somewhat ridiculous here.
 
Re: Ke-M12-1A (PT-M2-1A) Kirie Thought Armor + Built in Weap

Well, that imagery is failing if I can't give it more powerful weapons to match its size and output, so I have to consider emphasizing compatibility.

If the word slender isn't good, I can reword it, but I think having the 5-fingered Kirie take advantage of the thicker 4-fingered proportions possible (since the hands of the neko have to fit in the Mindy) is the best idea I have. I've been struggling with others but had had trouble.
 
Re: Ke-M12-1A (PT-M2-1A) Kirie Thought Armor + Built in Weap

The Iroma mecha have been suffering from the same problem and they've coped. I don't see how you can't just give it large weapons and imply they are more powerful and meant to use effectively against larger mecha as well while still sticking at the cap of ADR5.

Until the DR system can become more friendly to that size class, it's pretty much your only way of having the submission satisfy the NTSE mods. Fortunately, as long as they only end up being used under your supervision, you're the one that arbitrates just how much damage that actually means through your narrative.
 
Re: Ke-M12-1A (PT-M2-1A) Kirie Thought Armor + Built in Weap

Okay, removed the hand compatibility...it was originally an idea I had for a LAMIA Kai, but executed in a different way for different reasons. I still want there to be options for Mindy hardpoints on the Kirie, but that is less of an issue I believe...and the Kirie would still have its own hardpoint systems available.

Thoughs on the self destruct? Should I be vague and just state the maximum diameter like on the Mindy?
 
Re: Ke-M12-1A (PT-M2-1A) Kirie Thought Armor + Built in Weap

Toshiro can also do what origin did for mecha weaponry, and have the more powerful ones capable of doing SDR 1 and SDR 2 damage at full power.
 
Re: Ke-M12-1A (PT-M2-1A) Kirie Thought Armor + Built in Weap

Okay, I definitely have issues with the self-destruct values. The force for the components added up should not exceed the force of the entire thing blowing up.
 
Re: Ke-M12-1A (PT-M2-1A) Kirie Thought Armor + Built in Weap

As I said, I'm willing to rework them -- I just haven't had anyone give suggestions on what they should actually be.

The only person to give suggestions in IRC was someone saying it should be something as minute as ADR 2, which I find implausible and unacceptable.
 
Re: Ke-M12-1A (PT-M2-1A) Kirie Thought Armor + Built in Weap

I have no problem with the overall blast, we need to talk sometime in IRC on how to divide the force from the components, otherwise right now, a person can jettison each limb and do almost as much as blowing the core.
 
Re: Ke-M12-1A (PT-M2-1A) Kirie Thought Armor + Built in Weap

Since our discussion didn't glean much, should I just say that it has a maximum blast of the current radius and DR listed; and just state that its limbs, its upper torso, and lower torso can be split and explode independently? I am guessing that by the time a machine or parts of it self destruct, DR isn't being used as much as plot device anyway.
 
Re: Ke-M12-1A (PT-M2-1A) Kirie Thought Armor + Built in Weap

Well for most Power Armor that would be the case, but since this is Thought Armor and the pilot can shed limbs with no risk to the operator, it can be used as a plot device.
 
Re: Ke-M12-1A (PT-M2-1A) Kirie Thought Armor + Built in Weap

Self destruct is now only defined at its maximum, of SDR5 with a 28 meter radius sphere (double the volume of the Mindy's self destruct) with the other blasts being loosely defined as smaller/adding up to that maximum.
 
Re: Ke-M12-1A (PT-M2-1A) Kirie Thought Armor + Built in Weap

Approved.
 
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