Approved Submission [Mechanic] Damage Rating (Version 3) Update

To interject a personal idea into this conversation:

In a group DM earlier this evening, I came up with an idea for how DR and size are related, andi'd like to hear potential opinions about it. As it stands, some people seem to interpret the sizes of DR tiers as a maximum/minimum value. My idea for this was to promote an "average" height/length as opposed to a maximum/minimum.

For example, the Mindy - a Tier 4 armor - would be "about pilot sized", roughly 1.7m in height. A Tier 5 armor would be about 2-2.5 meters tall, as well - and so on.

Because these values are supposed to be an average for the defensive rating, you could in theory have a Tier 4 armor about 2 full meters in height, or a Tier 5 breaking the 3 meter barrier - within reason. This idea almost certainly has a lot of major flaws, but I think it might be interesting to consider.

Possible, though the Tier considerations would need to be something other than just size -- such as tech level and such. There is interest in "down-Tiering" some things sufficient to consider this possibility for such purposes. NTSE mods would have to be willing to observe and recommend Tiers for the tech submissions they read if it doesn't seem to line up.

That vagueness, while ideal to have, requires case-by-case interpretation.

Indeed - that is why I think overlapping of sizes would help here; if you made a comparatively short/small power armor or mecha with high-quality/technology equipment, such as the Kirie, then its defensive tier could be more readily explained. Keeping the size definitions as an "average" does blur the lines intentionally, but I believe in this sense it's a good sort of blurring.

Of course, that justification needs to be better and better as the size goes up into the realm of larger mecha and starships.

Also, one of the reasons I think of tiny Mecha having more defensive capability than perhaps similarly sized Power Armor is an in-built advantage -- the pilot isn't injured if a limb is damaged or the like, and the armor is proportionally thicker/joints more durable if it doesn't have to conform to a person underneath. That's a key consideration borne of design ideology as much as size.

Wes said:

I've always thought it was ridiculous that the Hostile, which is armor that's basically only slightly bigger than a Mindy, was 2 tiers above the Mindy 4 for no explicable reason. This adjusted chart "fixes" that.

There is definitely some blurring of the line between mecha and power armor. The Kirie, which is an actual (small) mecha (it's got a pilot pod, and isn't worn like armor is worn) is lower on the scale than the Aggressor power armor (the aggressor is significantly larger than the Kirie).

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I’ve not read this, but the Aggressor technically is a mech; it has a cockpit pod. It’s not operated like traditional PA.

It was marked as PA because it’s not big enough nor carries the sort of firepower to be one. It’s the most line-blurring suit on SARP.

Edit: And another thing to mention is that people completely miss why the Hostile was considered bigger. It's not just height; it's one of the bulkiest/widest suits in SARP compared to all the ones that are all of half a foot taller. Suits that are taller aren't necessarily more sturdy/stronger/better; the Hostile is a brick and a definitive top-line T5. This is why it was passable as a T6 and the Aggressor (as I pointed out) was considered a light mech in damage rating. I don't know why Yamatai feels the need to justify its suits better durability/toughness-wise; their niche is speed and damage. They carry bigger guns on faster things. I'm not sure why there's this weird "muh Yam" going on or why there's really any sort of belittling of Nepleslian tech going on when this stuff was approved months ago in a very public update. It just seems like people are trying to nerf things for the sake of the system proving superiority, versus working to fit the thematics of the site (I don't envision a Yamatai suit taking as much punishment as a Nepleslian suit; they're not designed in the same philosophy visually or as a faction's standard of combat).

(Huge) Edit #2: I also see people acting like we vacate Yamatai to Tier 5 when the deserve Tier 6... and I'm not sure I understand why this is a thing.

Let me explain; the Aggressor is (IMO) what is considered the biggest a Tier 6 should be. Yamatai would have some at Tier 6, but these suits are defined not only on size but in use as far as I've always viewed. In specific words; most of the mentions of Yamatai suits I would contest. They're very basic suits and likely really advanced Tier 5 suits... but just because they're big and "heavy" doesn't make them Tier 6. Tier 6 suits should be the suits that are going to be fundamentally slower but field bigger guns. Or rely on a gimmick (as the Devil RAID suit does to gain speed via its "fighter propulsion method") to push them beyond a traditional Power Armor.

In a way, this is why I think it's a bit silly; it's always been a transitional tier in my eyes. The Hostile's original T6 rating was because we were forced to change it and as it stood there seemed to be issues involving it. And as I mentioned, the Aggressor's initial T7 rating is because it DID qualify for a mech and was pushed as such to avoid issues.

Yamatai can use one or two tier-ups, I think, but they don't need a sweeping change. Because again; Yamatai being lighter makes sense as they rely on their weapons and systems. They do not rely on the suits themselves, as a Neplelsian would. Mindy's as a T5, IMHO, is inflating them as a barely passed T5 because they're generally too fast and don't need MAXIMUM GAINS.

If you want to know why there's a belief that PA is invincible, it's because we're seriously sitting here and thinking that form-fitted suits are better designed and so durable enough they stand toe-to-toe with function-focused blocky suits that are designed NOT FOR SPEED AND AGILITY, but for CLOSE AND VERY BRUTAL COMBAT. Nepleslian battle strategy makes them rely on durability and tougher suits; they stack armor not because of so much it being "inferior" but because they expect to get hit. Yamataians don't.

And if someone tries telling me otherwise, I'll laugh. From all the Yamatai stuff I read, none of them take a punch or get into knife fights and close-range sprawls like I've seen in Nepleslian RP. Nepleslia has always been a much more lethal and dangerous fighting field than X thousands of meters away, blowing holes through anything with some little aether pew-laser. Pardon me if the meme slightly overwhelms, but I actually am a bit uncertain what happened to encourage a discussion that seriously was suggesting that Yamatai relied on physical defense and tough suits instead of lighter, more nimble suits.

IMHO: I'm honestly being nice. All your "heavy" armors are 2.3 meters and you insist the Kirie is a mech because of its pilot pod. The Aggressor is 4 meters tall and has a cockpit and I had to tier it to T6. The size discrepancy alone makes it look like the Kirie and Keiko are BARELY T6. The Hostile is a T5 and is barely half a foot shorter but 1.5 meters wide in comparison to your .9. The Keiko is 300 kg? The Hostile is 2 tons. How are these suits in the same field, @Wes, when their weights mean that the Hostile is much heavier and has a bigger frame to carry more armor? I just want to get the FULL statistics and reasoning in here.

And I don't mean to "compare sizes" but I want to prove a point that the Hostile was considered higher because it's fundamentally in the same size range as your Kirie and Keiko but has a different design focus and a MUCH higher weight. It also isn't even that poor off; Nepleslian engineering even upgraded it with a package in YE 36 with better shields and defensive systems. Trying to use it as a reason to verify all/most of Yamatai suits at T5 is a bad idea; calling the Mindy a T4 doesn't mean it's worse off than a Hostile in any way either. Something people need to remember is that GMs display this especially in battle; a faster and more better armed light PA like the Mindy will often trash the Hostile regardless of its stature. In terms of killing power, Yamatai has a leg up even if they're one tier down because they are LOGICALLY LIGHTER-ARMORED. They have better materials and better guns; their light suits are ICly recorded as being as competent as some nation's battleships.

Why act like the Hostile being T5 threatens Yamatai by placing them in T4? There's literally nothing making the Hostile the more likely to win. ESPECIALLY since we removed weapon limitations that give Yamatai the ability to strap their lovely aether beam rifles back on and shoot space-magic through the void at unfathomable distances and one-shot something like even an Aggressor.

My understanding of what's going to happen, as of now, is that that the Hostile will go to tier 5, and the aggressor will go to tier 6. It represents the very upper edge of what can be considered tier 6, where as the Kirie and Keiko represent the very lower edge of what can be considrered tier 6. Both of them differ from the average size of their tier and overlap with other tiers.

This isn't about faction favoritism and if people just want to not move the hostile and Agressor that's OK too. (But that will require some redefining of how small a mecha can be)

Does this seem acceptable to everyone? After we tackle this we can discuss wording and the use of hard numbers within tiers below 7, and whether or not we want that, and then sort out mecha sizes.

Edit: By mecha sizes I mean the guidelines for their size, not a hard rule. So for an example, the average sized light mecha might now be anywhere from 5 to 11 meters tall.

For my part, I've never really liked the "defensive tier by size" thing. I get that it's to sinplify things, but like... SARP uses ultra-strong fictional materials in their construction. By these charts, I could supposedly build a mech out of ordinary iron the same size as any of the existing supermetal mechs and it would be just as tough. Or even using cardboard.

Or I could use these supermetals and, in the description, talk about how many layers of armor a ship is made with, leaving very little space for living areas or subsystems, and it would be just as vulnerable as a ship the same size with dozens of crew cabins, hangars, cargo bays, engines, etc.

Again, I get that it's trying to be a simple narrative system. But it also feels like it curbs creativity. Especially if we are trying to treat it like a higher tier mech or ship is just better than everything below it in every way. Speed, maneuverability, armament, and such should matter, too. And of course, GMs are supposed to take that into account when it matters. But that should be something we all acknowledge and are aware of, then. It seems people are arguing about changes favoring one faction or another, when really armor classification should just be one factor.

That's my opinion, anyway.

It's more defense tier by scale, really. A knife usually does more damage to a man than it does an elephant not only due to the elephant's thicker hide, but also how large the wound will be proportionally for each. Besides, if everyone uses super-metals, everyone ends up kind of even anyways. That's why material properties are a thing too, they just get interpreted differently than tier. In fact, people make the mistake of putting too much importance on tier, when Tier is supposed to be just one of several ingredients, in the submission's description, that helps define just how tough it is to the reader.

The tiers aren't made to be a number game. Just help with the expression that the bigger the difference between the scale of target and weapon tier, the more hurt there will be... and how how much.

Right now, Tiers are in debate mostly because the talked-about tiers are really close to one another. In this instance, it's actually very granular compared to the higher categories, and people's mental pictures are clashing against each other. The medium power armor tier actually initially existed to fit machines like the M6 Daisy in it, but went blank when Wes protested because it didn't fit with his mental picture of the Daisy (something I'm divided on still, but won't get into).

What I'll add to this discussion is this: so Frostjaeger re-sorted examples. Okay, but I think Toshiro brings good concerns to the table as well. That said, Tier 5 was mostly a fluff tier, so I get why it goes away as it was. So, maybe you can stop comparing your units against each other - which is tougher and so forth - and just set them in the size category they belong to? Examples aren't necessarily inviolate when things are being rejiggered like this.

And before people forget: size for an armor is not just height, but width. The point of comparison is crossing a doorframe. If you can't cross the doorframe because you're wider, then your scale is proportionally higher too.

This brings us to the questions; "Where do we want the Keiko and Kirie? Do we really want to move the Agressor down a tier or do we want to redefine the average size range for mecha so that it can stay where it is now?"

"Should we resize mecha as they are now?" As far as I can tell most of the people who use them think the current size recommendations are too large.

I don’t mean to be rude, @Alex Hart, but remember - this thread isn’t for discussing changes to DRv3 that aren’t included in the submission. Perhaps this thread would be a better place to continue the conversation about DRv3 and mecha sizes?

This submission includes the restatting of formerly Tier 6 units into Tier 5 ones, and putting other Mecha into the Tier 6 slot. Your submission, in practice, is redefining the PA/Mecha scale. Within the bounds of these changes at least, such discussion should still be permitted.

Fair enough, @Toshiro. I personally believe that the size guidelines for mecha - 10 meters, 20 meters, and 40 meters, for Tiers 7, 8, and 9, respectively - are fine where they currently are, especially since they’re meant to be “average” values (in my opinion) and line up with the lower realms of Tier 10 quite nicely.

It's very clear to me that we need to redefine the mecha tiers because at the moment I think they're far too large and don't properly represent the size of MOST mecha actually are in SARP. For example, most origin mecha are sub 10 meters and are at about the 7-8 meter mark with one at about 4 or so meters tall. I think that since we're re-tiering a bunch of stuff, and redefining a few tiers this is a good time to address this matter.

Personally, my thought on the matter is that we should give AVERAGE sizes for all tiers 4-9 and state explicitly in the size chart that all sizes are average that start at the 5 meter mark, and go up to 11 meters for light mecha, and then have medium mecha be 9 meters to 15 meters, and have heavy go from 14 and up.

Power armor tier descriptions should stay as they are in the current reivision, with the exception that it be made clear that those are average sizes.

This change will allow us to keep the Aggressor in its current tier 7 placing and the Keiko and Kirie at tier 6, ensuring that it's where it's meant to be, while also opening up the door for more flexibility in mecha sizing by both creating size overlap and making it clear that all sizes are average.

Iromakuanhe Frames sit around 5-7 meters in height but are advanced pieces of equipment with cutting edge armor and shields so far as the Iroma have. That is their niche'. I can't really justify their increasing in size to gain a higher tier since that would be counterproductive to their streamlining, miniaturization of parts, and more advanced systems since according to their events history they've had the capability to make Frames for over two hundred years or longer. This means they specialize in this sort of thing.

So, how would this effect the Iromakuanhe's niche' market with their Frames? Just this whole thing became a little alarming to me y'know?

Alex Hart said:

This change will allow us to keep the Aggressor in its current tier 7 placing and the Keiko and Kirie at tier 6, ensuring that it's where it's meant to be, while also opening up the door for more flexibility in mecha sizing by both creating size overlap and making it clear that all sizes are average.

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I'd point out this was why I had overlaps.

...

Why is the Kirie even a piece of debate anyways? It doesn't seem to fit in doorframes; it appears to hit the Tier 6 mark pretty solidly from where I stand... which seems like a fine place for it to be.

If the examples are contentious, just move the unit out of the examples and put in something that's better representative; then the author can have their unit where they feel they fit best in their impression... and end of the story.

Trivia:
doorframes as a piece of measurement for 'light power armors' are a thing because it's a very consistent criteria for all Yamatai LAMIA designs (the general classification, not the Ke-M1). Light power armors can go pretty much anywhere a human can except for very tight spaces like maintenance crawlways. Medium power armors aren't big enough to not be able to maneuver indoors, but doorframes are an impediment they have to squeeze through (if the added bulk of their payload allows it). The girth of heavy armors prevents them from crossing that threshold altogether, and their operations within indoor passages are in general indesirable.

By the point you're at Light Mecha (as in Mechanical, not Robot), you're likely large enough so that if you'd have a humanoid operator, his/her limbs wouldn't be in the machine's limbs anymore. That said, Light mecha as a category is realy directed at some of the smaller shuttlepods in our setting as well as lighter armored vehicles (APC), or very small fightercraft like the Kawarime; an actual mecha being in here might be the Robocop ED-209. By the point you're at Medium mecha you're a larger shuttlecraft, a bonafide fightercraft/bomber, or an actual tank, and some of the smaller Micheal Bay transformers (Bumblebee). The Large Mecha category was meant for sizes reflecting some of the things like the Space Shuttle Orbiter, a fighter jet (like the F-16 or F-22), or the larger Micheal Bay Transformers (Optimus Prime).

I don't get the whole "you can fit under the cieling, but not squat through a doorframe" thing to begin with. If you build a machine to fit in a building or ship, you're going to build it to navigate that ship even if bulky. When I made a PA as large as I could reasonably think PA could go, before DRv3 existed, I didn't conceive of such a pointless niche that was "above PA but not really" in terms of navigating indoor structures (which I consider a requirement for something to function as a PA). Tier 6 was sized wonky to start with or creeped into this state over time, I think, meaning that conversion from DRv2 top PA Tier to DRv3 top PA Tier for such units was clumsy.

Maybe we should just have "Light Armor" and "Heavy Armor" at Tier 4 and Tier 5, ditch Tier 6 as a "You technically fit in the building but can't actually do anything resembling navigation" and instead allocate it to the tiny baby mecha. Just be more specific about it instead of calling Tier 6 a PA scaling if you're going to push everything downward to dominate it with Mecha. It seems like we won't be able to avoid that happening after all.

Kind of feeling defeated here, but I don't see any other reasonable options now. PA has an utterly pointless niche which doesn't fit what I considered the maximum, and Mecha needs to eat that niche to work. I just don't like seeing Mecha being passed off as PA, and stuff being downgraded like this needed brought up rather than quietly and blindly accepted.

On the most basic and fundamental things, the Kirie and Keiko can functionally navigate a ship, which seems to consign them to upper Tier 5. Does the fact the pilot is in a smaller footprint, away from the joints, allow for enough armor and joint changes to push it into Tier 6 due to the mecha design aspects? I'd like to think it does so it can keep its niche, but I don't know anymore.

Soresu said:

Iromakuanhe Frames sit around 5-7 meters in height but are advanced pieces of equipment with cutting edge armor and shields so far as the Iroma have. That is their niche'. I can't really justify their increasing in size to gain a higher tier since that would be counterproductive to their streamlining, miniaturization of parts, and more advanced systems since according to their events history they've had the capability to make Frames for over two hundred years or longer. This means they specialize in this sort of thing.

So, how would this effect the Iromakuanhe's niche' market with their Frames? Just this whole thing became a little alarming to me y'know?

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I don't think it would affect it at all. There have already been people making mecha that size before this, as with origin, and this change would just make it easier to understand (From a glance) that the option to make mecha that size is available.

@Fred I never saw any overlap in the mecha sizes. It was always 10 20 or 40, with no overlap or no mention of the fact that those sizes could be considered "Average" and weren't a hard set entry requirement.

Mecha sizes have been rising of late, because of the high entry requirements to make them. To make my mecha that was supposed to be a competitor to the lowest end 7 meter origin frames I had to go 10 meters tall.

Half a tennis court to a full tenis court seemed like overlap to me.

Alex Hart said:

Mecha sizes have been rising of late, because of the high entry requirements to make them. To make my mecha that was supposed to be a competitor to the lowest end 7 meter origin frames I had to go 10 meters tall.

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Your objection makes no sense to me. I don't see what stopped you from making something at 7 meters too.

Toshiro said:

I don't get the whole "you can fit under the cieling, but not squat through a doorframe" thing to begin with. If you build a machine to fit in a building or ship, you're going to build it to navigate that ship even if bulky.

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I don't know where you're going with this besides stating the obvious. Mindy armors go everywhere. It's a trait of them being Light Power Armors. If the Kyrie is bigger, bulkier and generally stronger, then of course it's going to come with caveats (especially considering a higher-tier power armors is generally tougher and stronger). A normal household or office building's doorframe might pose an impediment.

If you're in a ship that's big enough to accomodate a Kirie's girth, good on you. Most of the disadvantage of being bigger is neutered. Bravo. But in a smaller, submarine-scale environment, the Mindy armor is going to have a clear edge. There are benefits to not being the biggest thing on the block.

Toshiro said:

On the most basic and fundamental things, the Kirie and Keiko can functionally navigate a ship, which seems to consign them to upper Tier 5. Does the fact the pilot is in a smaller footprint, away from the joints, allow for enough armor and joint changes to push it into Tier 6 due to the mecha design aspects? I'd like to think it does so it can keep its niche, but I don't know anymore.

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Frankly, it sounds to me like you answered your own question earlier.

If you're within a certain size but managed to save operator limbs from going into the machine's limbs, good on you: it means you saved the user from injury if you actually do lose a limb. That's a great advantage.

It's not necessarily tier-relevant, though. It's more part of your design quirks of the machine, and is reflected in the article's description.

That doesn't seem like any overlap to me, just based on the way I read it. It looks like one or the other, and there's no indication otherwise. I think that the solution I proposed helps make this overlap abundantly clear, as well as shrinking down the size requirements for mecha to better fit what the community plays with. There's no clear evidence in the current DRv3 article to suggest any sort of overlap, or that the sizes are only average and that deviation from them is ok. If we make that clear we make it easier for people to make the sort of thing that they want to and a tangible overlap gives them more flexibility with size.

In the current article, all that it looks like is a hard set requirement that's far too high for many mecha in the setting. It LOOKS like to make a light mecha I have to make it at least 10 meters tall.

I want us to provide more size flexibility to players, a clear and visible overlap in tiers and for us to make it clear that all sizes provided by the size chart are only average and that deviation within reason from the recommended size is OK. Heck, tier overlap would even be good within ship tiers too.

Say hello to the Tennis Court:

What's the problem with a robot being based on that size? Why do you keep bringing up extreme examples too? A light mecha could be 6 meters tall. It could be 8 meters tall. It could even be 10 meters tall. It could be 12 meters tall. It could be stocky. It could be lanky. Or it could be an aircraft, a shuttle, an armored vehicle. All of those could feasibly count as Light Mecha; those fit in half-a-court. Want even bigger? Well, Medium mecha covers up to twice that - up to a full tennis court.

You want an average? I'm not opposed to that... but your objection makes absolutely no sense from where I stand.