Military Buildup Limitation Discussion

[Arieg]

I propose.. that we've reached a point to where its time to either replace the MBL article with a newer more accurate revised version or do away with it entirely and leave it up to the NTSE when one submits a new fleet.

Listed issues I've found with the present MBL.

• To stringent on unit types: realistically the composition of a fleet provided by one system could be any number of configurations rather then the flat 'rate' provided by the present MBL.
• Does not take system development into account: most systems on the SARP are just barely developed with small surface infrastructure the present MBL does not address how to handle star systems of less then adequate industrial capability. (For instance the amount of economic capacity between the Nepleslia Star System and the Yamataian Star System would vary greatly and should be addressed).
• Building times are redundant: Considering the technological differences in most factions and that SARP has left its PVP days behind it I would wager that this requirement is no longer needed for roleplay (considering RP could very well cover it).
• The very thing its moderating could be handled very well by fleets being submitted through the NTSE and their fleet counts being justified there.

 

[CadetNewb]

To be honest, the Military Buildup Limitations never really struck me as being very well done.

My own impression was that they were a quick band-aid to simply prevent a crazy arms-race in the earlier 'dark days' of SARP where factions would pretty much crush one another out of existence if not kept in check. Yeah, it doesn't make much sense at all - a planet with maybe a single city of colonists (or even none) providing the additional capacity for an entire fleet and all that - but right now? It's not really a big deal. Most RP focuses on smaller scales, so it isn't much of a hassle. Not only that, but In Character RP trumps the Wiki - if a nation whips out a few more fleets of ships than the wiki says, the wiki is basically out of date - our roleplay is flexible enough to get around the limitations of the Military Buildup Limitations these days. If you go ahead and make a much better system though, I'd be all for it.

What I'm trying to say is that it isn't higher in priority. Like, maybe a new DR system that actually represents how things go in RP is. Reason being is that it doesn't really give us any trouble, while DR does from time to time when it rears its ugly head.

 

[Fred]

As far as I'm concerned the DR system is already fixed, except I haven't had the personnal need to write it down as agreed yet, since it was meant to accompany my own submissions - which are, still, in progress. I am in no hurry, as I am well aware any discontent has already been resolved with "in-house" adjustments anyways (and as I am more comfortable with laying down a guideline rather than dictating how GMs should arbitrate, that is fine with me).

Now, regarding military buildup limits, I see points raised for inadequacy, but not any solutions. I too do agree that it is by no means precise, and I'll even give in to the admission that what it really achieves presently is justifying why Yamatai is 'at the top' more than anything else... but by the same way the effort needed to make it more effective and detailed would require a grand amount of micromanagement.

I don't know about you guys, but I consider myself a roleplayer, not an accountant. That's why I'm rather fine with the 250 ship limit per system along with some glossing over/rounding the edges as needed.

 

[Arieg]

I think in the end the DR system is mostly just considered an archaic rule that is little more then a tax stamp to most people, I just know I have to put it on anything weapon-like I submit or its not going through. Performance really is determined by the GM and or player using the technology. Overall I prefer muzzle velocity, foot-pounds, and raw joules over the DR system.

Now... the buildup limits... I suppose the reason I never stated any solutions to the issue, well at least not yet, is because we really only have two. As you stated before the alternative to what we have now is an overly complex system based on what a star system is like from case to case (which I had somewhat planned to fold into my planned standard star system template). The other and in all honesty the one I wouldn't mind seeing occur is dismissing the rule entirely as I believe SARP has moved past the point to where it needs such limitations on her factions. The controlling element to prevent a return to the million ship era is as simple as an NTSE submission for each modification of a faction's fleet count.

 

[Fred]

I see this from another angle: the one where I'm trying to see why this needs fixing.

SARP moving past any 'point' is a notion I find ephemereal at best - that 'guideline' showed up for a reason, and I'm not ready to believe that SARP's overall maturity level has grown to a point where this has become utterly unneccessary.

I consider the issue, and see it both as justificative and an explanatory limitation to the fleet ship sizes of Wes' Star Army of Yamatai. I see the guideline kind of ignored as to how it concerns most civilian, logistical and small craft assets; so it kind of construes itself as being an estimation of how much of a standing military a faction can feasibly support. Other factions starting with Nepleslia and smaller have, so far as I know, not really gone anywhere close to the number value attributed to their holdings in relation to the standing space military they can support. As far as I know, this also applies to the Lorath, the Gartagens, and the Abwehrans. 250 ships per system is, in all appearance, an extremely generous count.

So, after taking this step back, I end up with the conclusion that the system-based limitation isn't really broken. It's a rather broad guideline already. It's loose enough to suit younger factions very well. Any comparison to Yamatai is overall redundant since the forum's namesake will never actually fall unless the site admin wills it (and in all likelyhood it's the reasonable exception to believe it won't). I don't see it actually meaningfully impeding anyone, and anyone it would impede would have the guideline applies as designed anyhow.

Basically, it's neither broken nor obsolete. I see no need to fix it or entirely remove it.

 

[Wes]

I agree with Fred wholeheartedly. Also, I attempt to abide the the build-up limitations and I expect the same of other faction managers. The limits keep Yamatai from building its fleets to insane numbers like in SARP's early days. But, more importantly, they give a guideline to current and future factions on the sizes their fleets can reach, preventing overzealous numbers from being submitted, in the same way having a speed guideline and a size guideline also serve to standardize the setting so factions are on the same page instead of looking like they're from different RPs or settings.

 

[Gallant]

I firmly believe that fleets should be plot-fuel and nothing more.

If Yamatai expands, it should be expanded by Plot. Written plot, that involves writers, and is fun for somebody. I understand that the Eucharis and that style of ship-plot has been typically very Star-Trek like in its 'Boldly Going'. Heak, it's one of the main reasons that Yamatai is so far out there. Wes has actually done a very good job of involving people in expansion through that plot, and I think we should reward that sort of industrious behavior among other GMs. Especially now that we have the open roleplaying forum, we should encourage people to go out and do new things and write new material in new star systems, so long as they record it in the wiki as they go along.

It opens up a lot of opportunity for people to write around in a sci-fi setting and still affect the way things are. Why don't we invite new faction managers to try their factions out on a plotship or in a plot, in the open RP forums, before they're wikified? Their debut on the intergalactic scale, whether it's being discovered by some other intergalactic nation or what?

The way that the system seems to be done now, with the number of planets tied to the activity and playerbase and so on, I don't like that. It smells far too much like an OOC incentive/dick waving contest to me, but then again I've been away from the site for a few month so eh.

 

[CadetNewb]

Then it's all as it was said then, right?

Having a planet with only a handful of colonists on it being able to support an entire new fleet is absolutely silly. I think we can agree on that. At the same time, it isn't really a problem at all. It doesn't hurt anybody after all. As Fred said, it's not broken. Meanwhile, Gallant has a good point as well - the fleets should be plot fuel and nothing more. In the end though, I feel that if Arieg manages to make a better system, that's fine. We don't really have much of a reason to stop that improvement. At the same time, we don't need that improvement either, and if we don't get an improvement over the current system, that's fine too.

Though, I don't think we should simply flat out say no if this is what Areig wants to do. If he makes something and it actually looks good when it lands in the NTSE, some yays and cheers. If not, then we move on. I don't know if I'm managing to put it into words right (I'm probably not), but I guess a 'shrug' at the idea is the best I can sum it up as.

 

[Ira]

I don't see the need to even worry about it. Ships are there, Yamatai has a bunch *shrug* We have a new year coming up, and our focus is not on how many ships every faction will be using. I only ever list ship numbers in plot if it is relevant to the story being told.

 

[Gallant]

I don't see the need to even worry about it. Ships are there, Yamatai has a bunch *shrug* We have a new year coming up, and our focus is not on how many ships every faction will be using. I only ever list ship numbers in plot if it is relevant to the story being told.

This.

Claim the planets. Develop them, if it serves a plot. But above all, write the story. Have the wars, if you want, but make them stories. Don't make them number games or dick-waving contests.

 

[Nashoba]

My opinion is if it is not broken don't fix it. The current system says that the system has to have a decent population and industrial references on its wiki page.